Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

[St. SteVen]

... whose testimony is heretical?

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the term "heretical".
What you meant was "true"?

Heretical is determined by the status quo, or what we might call the "orthodox" position, or understanding.
This is the reason for this topic. I see a lot of fine folks throwing these terms around without a clue what they mean.
Heretical has nothing to do with true or false from my perspective.
More like approved of, or disapproved of, by the tribe.

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually, when John 1:51 is entertained and examined first by our minds, we perceive that Jesus was wanting to provide a glimmer of hope and expectation, that they would see a reality of evidence that He whom they were following, was indeed the Messiah, backing up the words of John the baptist: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world".

From that point, the mind of Christ within us, if we allow Him, will reveal to us that what the disciples said they saw,
was NOT what Jesus said they WOULD see, which was Heaven would be opened, and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Now, by that comparison, we must conclude, whose testimony of witness is the truth, of what was actually seen by the disciples.

Our human minds alone, being that of "the natural man", cannot effectively describe the visual Glory of God's heavenly kingdom and all that is in it, or from it. Hence, one of the reasons of why God Himself had to physically appear in mortal flesh, through His only begotten Son Jesus.

Iows, whose testimony is heretical? That of what Jesus said, or that of which the disciples said they saw. The majority of church-ianity believes the latter, of which they then corrupt their understanding of the two witnesses in Rev.

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.

Doesn't this call into question the gospel accounts?
Can we depend on the "mere men" to have quoted Jesus correctly?

Especially 20 or 30 years after the events, when they got around to writing their accounts.
(assuming they actually did) Having shared the stories verbally up to that point.
I certainly don't trust my own memory of events 20 to 30 years ago. Do you?

Have you read the Didache?
It has an earlier writing date than the gospels. What a mess. IMHO
Obvious why it wasn't included in the canon. (one of three, or more)

 

[Rockerduck]

I think the Pharisees get a bad rap. They knew their Torah and dedicated their lives to keeping Torah and they truly thought they knew what God wanted - but because they thought they already knew it all, they weren't open to when God decided to do something unexpected.

And frankly, I have to wonder if we Christians wouldn't be the same way if Christ came today. Including me.

John 10:27- My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

when Jesus calls you will know Him.​

 

[St. SteVen]

heretic​

... a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma...​

There it is.
Thanks, Patrick!

Did Jesus in fact DIFFER in opinion from ESTABLISHED religious dogma?
I would say the answer is YES he did. Why did they crucify him?

 

[Rockerduck]

There it is.
Thanks, Patrick!

Did Jesus in fact DIFFER in opinion from ESTABLISHED religious dogma?
I would say the answer is YES he did. Why did they crucify him?

Mark 2:22 - And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

The new wine is the Kingdom of God that Jesus preached that is not compatible with the old Law ( Old wineskins). The Gospel of Grace replaced the "works" law of Moses. The Jews hated Jesus for that. And,

John 5:15-16 - The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.

John 7:18 - Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[Johann]

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

Amen Thomas!

Yup-and this subject is a anathema-giving our opponents more power to "reason it right out of this Forum"

 

[Johann]

There it is.
Thanks, Patrick!

Did Jesus in fact DIFFER in opinion from ESTABLISHED religious dogma?
I would say the answer is YES he did. Why did they crucify him?

DOGMA, n. [Gr., to think; L.] A settled opinion; a principle, maxim or tenet; a doctrinal notion, particularly in matters of faith and philosophy; as the dogmas of the church; the dogmas of Plato.
Compliment my dogma, and I will compliment yours.

 

[Behold]

tic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

What you meant to say is that a cult that pretends to be "Christian" burned people at one time.

So, there are your "heretics' burning people they claim are heretics.

Interesting, isn't it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Mark 2:22 - And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

The new wine is the Kingdom of God that Jesus preached that is not compatible with the old Law ( Old wineskins). The Gospel of Grace replaced the "works" law of Moses. The Jews hated Jesus for that.

Exactly!
Great post, thanks.

The "new wine skins" is a GREAT example of Jesus operating OUTSIDE of the religious establishment.
Which I would term "heretical".

 

[Marymog]

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the term "heretical".
What you meant was "true"?

Heretical is determined by the status quo, or what we might call the "orthodox" position, or understanding.
This is the reason for this topic. I see a lot of fine folks throwing these terms around without a clue what they mean.
Heretical has nothing to do with true or false from my perspective.
More like approved of, or disapproved of, by the tribe.

Hey Steven,

The Apostles were not teaching heresy, they were teaching the Truth. That made them the "status quo" in their time. Anyone that taught opposite of them, or opposite of the status quo, was a false teacher. Therefor being "heretical" DOES have something "to do with true or false". Those false teachers were not "approved" by.....what you call..."the tribe".

Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

His teachings are either true or false. A heretic teaches/practices OPPOSITE of His teachings. Therefor a heretic (someone who is heretical) IS teaching truth or lies. Your "perspective" seems out of line with reality.

Mary

 

[Patrick1966]

A heretic teaches/practices OPPOSITE of His teachings

I believe you misunderstand the definition of heretical. Being a heretic is about teaching things that are contrary to the accepted norm of orthodoxy.

For example, in Jesus's day the orthodoxy of the Sabbath was that nobody worked NO MATTER WHAT and, of course, Jesus taught something different which was "heretical" to the accepted doctrine of that time.

 

[Patrick1966]

Yup-and this subject is a anathema-giving our opponents more power to "reason it right out of this Forum"

Do you agree that anyone who says that Jesus doesn't torture people forever is a heretic?

 

[MatthewG]

There is only one occurrence of the word heretic, in the entire bible.

It's found in Titus 3:10

If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

The definition is

Strong's Concordance
hairetikos: causing division

Original Word: αἱρετικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hairetikos
Phonetic Spelling: (hahee-ret-ee-kos')
Definition: causing division
Usage: disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, factious.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 141 hairetikós (an adjective, derived from 138 /hairéomai, "to choose, have a distinctive opinion") – a factious person, specializing in half-truths and misimpressions "to win others over" to their personal opinion (misguided zeal) – while creating harmful divisions (used only in Tit 3:10). See 139 (hairesis).

 

[MatthewG]

There is only one occurrence of the word heretic, in the entire bible.

It's found in Titus 3:10

If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

The definition is

Strong's Concordance
hairetikos: causing division

Original Word: αἱρετικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hairetikos
Phonetic Spelling: (hahee-ret-ee-kos')
Definition: causing division
Usage: disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, factious.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 141 hairetikós (an adjective, derived from 138 /hairéomai, "to choose, have a distinctive opinion") – a factious person, specializing in half-truths and misimpressions "to win others over" to their personal opinion (misguided zeal) – while creating harmful divisions (used only in Tit 3:10). See 139 (hairesis).

Therefore Jesus was never a heretic. He never had misguided zeal for his Fathers work.

He was only a heretic to his brethren ... because he was the way, the truth, and the life. They envied him that is why he was crucified.

 

[bluedragon]

I think the Pharisees get a bad rap. They knew their Torah and dedicated their lives to keeping Torah and they truly thought they knew what God wanted - but because they thought they already knew it all, they weren't open to when God decided to do something unexpected.

And frankly, I have to wonder if we Christians wouldn't be the same way if Christ came today. Including me.

I think the Pharisees got full of their position in society. They knew that a Messiah was prophesized and decided they would be the ones to choose him.

 

[MatthewG]

I think the Pharisees got full of their position in society. They knew that a Messiah was prophesized and decided they would be the ones to choose him.

Yes, the scriptures proclaimed Jesus said about them: “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Also in Luke 18​

9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer[a]: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

They loved being part of the Levitical law, because they were of the tribe of Levi, perhaps doing 'religious' duties to be admired by men and others. Then the Pharisees also, being very well read in the Law, loved when people would seek them for what to do.

Was every one of them bad? I don't think so, Mary and Joseph from the line of david walked blamelessly in the Law.

But there was those who were hypocrites.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Apostles were not teaching heresy, they were teaching the Truth.

This is a misunderstanding of the term "heresy".
The reason for this thread.
Heresy does NOT equal false.

And YES, the Apostles WERE teaching heresy. Why were they persecuted?

 

[Patrick1966]

The definition is

Strong's Concordance
hairetikos: causing division

Luke 12:51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your "perspective" seems out of line with reality.

What is heresy from the Catholic perspective?
How does it differ from a Protestant perspective?
Do both agree on infant baptism, for instance?

 

[Patrick1966]

And YES, the Apostles WERE teaching heresy. Why were they persecuted?

I presume for being heretics.