Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

[Earburner]

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the term "heretical".
What you meant was "true"?

Heretical is determined by the status quo, or what we might call the "orthodox" position, or understanding.
This is the reason for this topic. I see a lot of fine folks throwing these terms around without a clue what they mean.
Heretical has nothing to do with true or false from my perspective.
More like approved of, or disapproved of, by the tribe.

Nope. Of what I said, in regards to the details of the Transfiguration, you missed it, being that church-ianity has accepted the heresy of what the disciples said they saw, as opposed to what Jesus said it was, that they would actually see.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you believe the Bible proclaims objective truth?

Cover to cover? No subjective truth?
Did you see my topic about literal and figurative?
Literal or Figurative - versus - Concrete or Abstract

You and your tribes, you make it about comparing yourself to others. But the standard is the Word of God.

There is no consensus within Christianity about what the Bible means. Objective, or subjective?
Are you claiming that an English translation of the Bible is the "Word of God"? (of which not all agree) ???

Divine inspiration anyone?

That's more of a question to @Earburner
I was questioning their post.

 

[marks]

Cover to cover? No subjective truth?
Did you see my topic about literal and figurative?
Literal or Figurative - versus - Concrete or Abstract


There is no consensus within Christianity about what the Bible means. Objective, or subjective?
Are you claiming that am English translation is the "Word of God"? (of which not all agree) ???

That's more of a question to @Earburner
I was questioning their post.

Seeing how you view the Bible, I no longer wonder at how you reach your ideas.

Nevermind!

And it's nothing to do with some "tribe" you "identify with". It's about how you look at Scripture.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

Nope. Of what I said, in regards to the details of the Transfiguration, you missed it, being that church-ianity has accepted the heresy of what the disciples said they saw, as opposed to what Jesus said it was, that they would actually see.

Doesn't this call into question the gospel accounts?
Can we depend on the "mere men" to have quoted Jesus correctly?

 

[St. SteVen]

Seeing how you view the Bible, I no longer wonder at how you reach your ideas.

Nevermind!

And it's nothing to do with some "tribe" you "identify with". It's about how you look at Scripture.

So, you are rejecting me? Seems to prove my point. Thanks.

How does "Nevermind!" and "Much love!" work together? Something wrong here.

 

[marks]

So, you are rejecting me? Seems to prove my point. Thanks.

How does "Nevermind!" and "Much love!" work together? Something wrong here.

Don't take it personally, no, I'm not rejecting you, however, your view of Scripture next to mine doesn't leave us the necessary common ground as a basis for this discussion. So I'm not inclined to continue this discussion.

Just the same, I truly desire that you know the Lord Jesus, and have eternal life through Him. And I hope you have a peaceable life, a fruitful life, a healthy life, with much eternal reward!

So let's keep everything in perspective . . .

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

Doesn't this call into question the gospel accounts?
Can we depend on the "mere men" to have quoted Jesus correctly?

Let's review what I said in post #21:
"We could go on with the transfiguration, and what the three disciples said they saw, of which is in direct contrast to what Jesus said of what they would see: John 1:51"
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Now, if we can't believe that the Lord was going to bring to their remembrance, of what to write in the gospel accounts (John 14:26), then what's the point for this discussion?
Albeit, it is an historical account of what actually happened, before the transfiguration, and during it:
1. Jesus spoke the truth about the Transfiguration.
2. The three disciples did not.
3. And so was it written, as it was brought to their remembrance.

They could only see what their human minds could associate and relate it to. They had NOT YET received the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, and therefore DID NOT have "the mind of Christ WITHIN THEM" for spiritual discernment. 1 Cor. 2:16.
Edit: as a result, I conclude that most all of the visible churches ("church-ianity") are believing heresy about the Transfiguration.

 

[St. SteVen]

Don't take it personally, no, I'm not rejecting you, however, your view of Scripture next to mine doesn't leave us the necessary common ground as a basis for this discussion. So I'm not inclined to continue this discussion.

If you can't see any common ground, that's on you.
This is the problem. Christians REFUSE to dialog with anyone that doesn't play by their rules.
Even in evangelism to "unbelievers".

Just the same, I truly desire that you know the Lord Jesus, and have eternal life through Him. And I hope you have a peaceable life, a fruitful life, a healthy life, with much eternal reward!

Why would you assume that I don't have a relationship with God? (or know the Lord Jesus) ???
So again, you are dismissing me.

So let's keep everything in perspective . . .

That would refreshing. Do you think you are capable of that?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus spoke the truth about the Transfiguration.
The three disciples did not.

So, the gospels were written by liars? My, oh my. ???

 

[marks]

Why would you assume that I don't have a relationship with God? (or know the Lord Jesus) ???

I'm not assuming you do or you don't. I want you to know Him.

This is the problem. Christians REFUSE to dialog with anyone that doesn't play by their rules.

Broad brush fallacy.

If you can't see any common ground, that's on you.

We read the Bible with a different idea in mind. I believe the full plenary inspiration, and infallibility. Do you? Maybe I'm mistaken. It doesn't seem as though you do.

Much love!

 

[bluedragon]

I presume for being heretics.

If they were preaching to Jews, yes ......however most of their audiences had changed to gentiles. Those churches formed and grew the fastest. Jerusalem knew that Jesus rose from the dead and left the tomb ......Yet they held the belief that the Pharisees would not lie to them.

They are still paying that price today.

 

[marks]

Do you think you are capable of that?

You can't seem to resist . . .

Have you considered that?

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

At no point and at no time does Scripture EVER say that baptism is a "public manifestation of the person’s conversion".

No, not in those exact words. But...
The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either. Do you believe in that?

What about the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist? Public, or not?
Or the three thousand in Acts chapter 2? Public, or not? At Peter's order to believe and be baptized.
A "public manifestation of the person’s conversion", or not?
This public confession of faith demonstrated that they "were added to their number that day."
Or the five thousand in Acts chapter 4? Public, or not?

Acts 2:41 NIV
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 4:4 NIV
But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

 

[Marymog]

No, not in those exact words. But...
The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either. Do you believe in that?

What about the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist? Public, or not?
Or the three thousand in Acts chapter 2? Public, or not? At Peter's order to believe and be baptized.
A "public manifestation of the person’s conversion", or not?
This public confession of faith demonstrated that they "were added to their number that day."
Or the five thousand in Acts chapter 4? Public, or not?

Acts 2:41 NIV
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 4:4 NIV
But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

He Steven,

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion—the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. That term is derived from the clear wording in Scripture of 3 distinct persons.

There is no clear wording in Scripture that says that infants are not to be baptized. Scripture makes it clear that entire families were baptized AND the earliest historical Christian writings say that infants were baptized. The earliest known argument about infant baptism was that they should be baptized BEFORE the 8th day after birth. The argument that children should NOT be baptized didn't start until 1,600 years later.

So who ya' goanna believe? The men that lived closest to the time of Christ of the men who lived 1,600 years later?

I have made my choice...what is yours?

You have referred to 'public' baptisms but left out private ones. Why did you do that? Is it because if you quoted them, it would destroy Protestant teachings? You do know where to find those non-public baptisms at in Scripture.....don't you?

Point a passage to me that says one has to be baptized in public for it to be a legitimate-wash away your sins-baptism, and I will join your denomination.

Mary

 

[Earburner]

So, the gospels were written by liars? My, oh my. ???

With a response like that, you are only showing that you lack understanding on the topic of the transfiguration, as well as how the Holy Spirit of God brought back to their remembrance, all of what to write in the Gospels, accordingly.

It is clear to me that you as a believer, have also been hi-jacked by "church-ianity's" heretical view, that Moses and Elijah were literally present with Jesus during that heavenly event.

 

[St. SteVen]

It is clear to me that you as a believer, have also been hi-jacked by "church-ianity's" heretical view, that Moses and Elijah were literally present with Jesus during that heavenly event.

Peter offered to build three shelters. Do you do that for those not present?
Or was Peter lying too?

 

[MatthewG]

With a response like that, you are only showing that you lack understanding on the topic of the transfiguration, as well as how the Holy Spirit of God brought back to their remembrance, all of what to write in the Gospels, accordingly.

It is clear to me that you as a believer, have also been hi-jacked by "church-ianity's" heretical view, that Moses and Elijah were literally present with Jesus during that heavenly event.

It was a vision wasn't it? When they came down from the mountain, Jesus told them not to tell anyone about the vision until the son of man had risen from the dead? The transfiguration upon going through the bible is one of the most awe-inspiring sights ever witnessed by myself because of having gone back and looked at some of the things of Daniel, and it seems to me that this showing was the very future glory - in my opinion - of God becoming all in all - and where Yeshua and Yahava, became together as one as in the beginning - like God, and God's word - ; as the Lord God Almighty. It also symbolized the completion of the Law and the Prophets and their promises of the coming Messiah who would fulfill all the promises foretold. Absolutely amazing story to read, and study in my opinion. That was what my conclusion came to; but you may differ earburner.

 

[Earburner]

Peter offered to build three shelters. Do you do that for those not present?
Or was Peter lying too?

Jesus said that heaven would be open and that they would see angels.
There is no doubt in me, that what Jesus said, came to pass during his transfiguration.

Please tell me what "image" or other visual the three disciples compared to, that they would know that they literally saw Moses and Elijah, in the blinding light of that moment?
Matt.17
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mark.9
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

With Moses being dead for 1300 years BC, and Elijah 800 years BC, I am very sure, because of the 10C Law, that there were no "images", painted or carved of either one, that the disciples would have any kind of memory whatsoever.

With the background OF HEAVEN OPEN, and being in blinding light, that pierced their eyes intensely, the disciples attempted to view WHAT JESUS SAID, of the angels ascending and descending upon Jesus.
Its not that anyone of the disciples intentionally lied, its just simply that both their memory of what Jesus said, and their mortal eyes failed them, as to what they described of what they thought they saw.
That would be in likeness of us watching an object passing in front of the glaring Sun. Was it an Eagle, a Crow or a Vulture?
Maybe it was a high flying jet airplane.
.
Edit: However, for someone to exclaim that the object passing in front of the Sun was definitely a male Bluebird, missing a couple of feathers, well for that, I should say that person's eyes are immortal.

 

[Earburner]

It was a vision wasn't it? When they came down from the mountain, Jesus told them not to tell anyone about the vision until the son of man had risen from the dead? The transfiguration upon going through the bible is one of the most awe-inspiring sights ever witnessed by myself because of having gone back and looked at some of the things of Daniel, and it seems to me that this showing was the very future glory - in my opinion - of God becoming all in all - and where Yeshua and Yahava, became together as one as in the beginning - like God, and God's word - ; as the Lord God Almighty. It also symbolized the completion of the Law and the Prophets and their promises of the coming Messiah who would fulfill all the promises foretold. Absolutely amazing story to read, and study in my opinion. That was what my conclusion came to; but you may differ earburner.

Your understanding is considerably worthy.
In my estimation, I can't tell if it was a vision placed in each of the three disciples head, or that it was a reality for their mortal eyes.

Either way would do for me, because the fact is none of them were told in the moment of who the entities were, except that in advance Jesus said that they would see heaven open and angels. I'm going with what Jesus said they would see, whether literally or by a vision. Thanks for sharing that understanding.
Edit: the other question that grabs me is, why the need for Jesus to take them "up into a high mountain apart" for them to see it. According to the power of God, visions can be given at any time, in a person's quiet time.
But, if it was a literal reality, I can understand why Jesus didn't want others to literally see it.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus said that heaven would be open and that they would see angels.
There is no doubt in me, that what Jesus said, came to pass during his transfiguration.

Please tell me what "image" or other visual the three disciples compared to, that they would know that they literally saw Moses and Elijah, in the blinding light of that moment?
Matt.17
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mark.9
[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

With Moses being dead for 1300 years BC, and Elijah 800 years BC, I am very sure, because of the 10C Law, that there were no "images", painted or carved of either one, that the disciples would have any kind of memory whatsoever.

With the background OF HEAVEN OPEN, and being in blinding light, that pierced their eyes intensely, the disciples attempted to view WHAT JESUS SAID, of the angels ascending and descending upon Jesus.
Its not that anyone of the disciples intentionally lied, its just simply that both their memory of what Jesus said, and their mortal eyes failed them, as to what they described of what they thought they saw.
That would be in likeness of us watching an object passing in front of the glaring Sun. Was it an Eagle, a Crow or a Vulture?
Maybe it was a high flying jet airplane.
.
Edit: However, for someone to exclaim that the object passing in front of the Sun was definitely a male Bluebird, missing a couple of feathers, well for that, I should say that person's eyes are immortal.

Reminds of some verses; about his Raiment:

Psa 104:
Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great:
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.

Daniel 7:9
9 “I watched till thrones were [a]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;