Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

[Blue Dragonfly's]

He didn't have a sin nature but I believe he was capable of sin. He could not come down as God because it would defeat the whole purpose of dying to sin when you can raise yourself up because you have God powers...

Do you believe Jesus was God, the word made flesh?

 

[Mr E]

I'd like to elaborate on this a bit if that's okay. I'm happy to spin it off as a new thread if it's considered off-topic here, too simplistic or too complicated or too controversial or too mundane. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes. I do think it's at the heart of @MatthewG 's original post with respect to Jesus and what "nature" he was born with. There is an even more fundamental principle in play.

My aim is not to convince anyone, rather to simply present an idea for consideration. If it helps-- great. If it doesn't-- fine. It's up to the individual to decide what concepts they will accept or reject-- let the reader decide!

"Jesus" was a baby born in a barn (I like to say) some two thousand years ago. Very human. Very physical. And it was this physical, human beginning as a baby born in humble circumstances that makes him like us with respect to our common humanity. Like us in every way is what scripture stipulates. Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2)

"Made a man like his brothers in all things." That's pretty clear. Human. Human nature. He was born with it because he was born human, unless scripture is misrepresenting him regarding his making.

But what is human? If you can accept that this duality I mentioned exists and is a fundamental principle needed in order to understand it becomes easy to differentiate and simplify terms-- a higher heavenly nature that is spiritual and one that is lower, fallen and physical. A divine nature, and human nature. Good and evil, spirit and flesh. It's not an indictment. It's a description. It's a condition. The human condition.

To be born human is to be born with this condition called "flesh." Over and over scripture equates it with sin-- our human condition, our fallen state, our curse. But it is only one of our two natures. The other of course is spiritual and divine (of God). It's this distinction between two that we derive the terms or titles- Son of God, Son of Man. One spiritual- spirit, one physical- flesh. Scripture says-- Spirit gives birth to spirit- (son of God) and flesh gives birth to flesh-- (son of human).

From here and with this understanding you might grasp the idea that God (the Father) so loved the world that He sent His son (spirit gives birth to spirit) and this spirit-son descended from on high, from a heavenly place to a fallen, physical world and was born a man-- that baby, made like us in all things.... the perfect, holy, innocent, pure, spotless one-- the spirit-son of God descending into the poor, broken, sinful, flesh of humanity.

It's no slap upon the face of Jesus -- human flesh was the condition he was born with-- a birth defect we all share.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

John 8

1 John 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.


Hebrews 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 John 3:5

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

 

[Mr E]

John 8

1 John 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.


Hebrews 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 John 3:5

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

Right.

Each of these refer to the Spirit-Son who descended and (as you quote from 2 Cor) became sin.

One could appropriately say-- For our sake He made him who knew no flesh, to become flesh.... "The lamb" is a spiritual concept, not a physical one. Unless you think Jesus was a physical lamb? (Mary had a.....)

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Right.

Each of these refer to the Spirit-Son who descended and (as you quote from 2 Cor) became sin.

One could appropriately say-- For our sake He made him who knew no flesh, to become flesh.... "The lamb" is a spiritual concept, not a physical one. Unless you think Jesus was a physical lamb? (Mary had a.....)

You should cease to mock.
I realize you don't believe in the penalty against blasphemy of the holy spirit now.
But you shall.

Jesus became sin on the cross.

Where the lamb without blemish or spot,sinless, died. Taking the sins of the world upon himself there.

 

[Mr E]

You should cease to mock.
I realize you don't believe in the penalty against blasphemy of the holy spirit now.
But you shall.

Jesus became sin on the cross.

Where the lamb without blemish or spot,sinless, died. Taking the sins of the world upon himself there.

You should recognize these are your beliefs. You can be in error and you should resist standing in judgment of others as scripture warns- Judge not, for the measure you use will be the measure for you.

Have a nice day Blue Dragonfly. I meant you no offense.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Beliefs garnered from God's word.
When we judge we are to use righteous judgement.

You should recognize these are your beliefs. You can be in error and you should resist standing in judgment of others as scripture warns- Judge not, for the measure you use will be the measure for you.

Have a nice day Blue Dragonfly. I meant you no offense.

 

[face2face]

But what is human? If you can accept that this duality I mentioned exists and is a fundamental principle needed in order to understand it becomes easy to differentiate and simplify terms-- a higher heavenly nature that is spiritual and one that is lower, fallen and physical. A divine nature, and human nature. Good and evil, spirit and flesh. It's not an indictment. It's a description. It's a condition. The human condition.

'
You're almost there!
Drop the duality and learn Paul's understanding the divine nature is a change to our current state...its put on! not already in us. Jesus was only flesh and blood nothing more and nothing less.
F2F

 

[face2face]

The debate over the sin nature has little to do with the Trinity.
The issue of Yeshua's divinity does.

God cannot be a covenant victim.

I do not believe in the one God formula for the Trinity....I see the Trinity as a unity or a Godhead of three full-fledged Gods that can sit on three thrones and Yeshua seat is to the right of Yahweh.

A single throne until God gave his Son a throne at His right hand side.
Show us a verse in the Bible that speaks of three thrones?

The big issue is Yeshua's divinity. By scripture and Yeshua's actions it is clear that a God walked this earth.
The phrase "sin nature" does not appear in the scriptures. There is no such thing as a sin nature other than the nature of humans without God, the natural man. Which is part of the debate, Yeshua was never without God. Could Yeshua be a natural man considering what all He knew? Divine awareness is not comprehendible by humans.

Lets make this clear - there was nothing immortal or eternal in Christ while he suffered in the flesh. His clothing of the divine nature happened upon his ressurection as it will with all who are raised and found worthy. Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep.

But then the body of Yeshua functioned like any other human....He grew and He aged. His needs and desires were the same as any man. What Yeshua had going for Him that was an advantage over others was Devine knowledge and connection. He knew why it was important not to sin....He knew what doing wrong would cause. He knew that wealth was insignificant to His ministry. How He dealt with the human sex drives is not explained in the scriptures, but I am sure He had them as well as temptations.

Correct, to use Scripture to proves this we go to Hebrews 4:15 which also proves he was fully man fully human and condemned to die regardless of his sacrifice.

The sacrifice would have meant nothing if He did not have the capability to sin, but refused. The Lamb of God is a symbol of purity. The sacrifice to end all sacrifices. There is so much of this in the scriptures, both God and Man walked among humanity and set the example. Both God and Man took His clothes off and got on His knees and washed the feet of the Apostles. As both God and Man talked to the dead, casted out demons, healed the sick and injured and raised the dead and walked on water and calmed the seas and commanded fish into the fishing nets and feed the multitudes and knew the thoughts of others. There is absolutely no way that Yeshua was just a man.

God was in Christ only in Word - in the Masters thinking and while he had His fathers HS power this was used only to confirm his Sonship and to prove the authenticity of his message.

And then the questions that is generally not pondered.....When Yeshua ascended to the Father and joined the unity....did He retain a portion of humanity as He did so?

And what about God the Father's sacrifice?....God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Sure He knew they could not kill a God, but the suffering that His Son endured was horrendous.

Christ was rewarded with a divine nature - a change from flesh and blood to flesh and Spirit. His nail marks still visible in his body. Hebrews 1 shows his inheritance but of course it cannot be an inheritance if he was God.

You would be believing in play.

F2F

 

[face2face]

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

How was Jesus made sin?
Another question is how was sin represented in Jesus on the tree?
The Christian would say "well, he took my sins to the cross!"
To which I reply "How?"

 

[Mr E]

'
You're almost there!
Drop the duality and learn Paul's understanding the divine nature is a change to our current state...its put on! not already in us. Jesus was only flesh and blood nothing more and nothing less.
F2F

I'm not quite sure how I became a First Century Lady, but since you quoted me I'll try to walk in those uncomfortable shoes.

Paul well understood the duality concept and wrote extensively about it, always contrasting spirit and flesh. You can't miss it. Read Galatians 5 or Romans 8. It's not one becoming the other. It's one in complete opposition to the other, with both coexisting and struggling against each other. The life-giving spirit conquering over death (flesh).

 

[face2face]

I'm not quite sure how I became a First Century Lady, but since you quoted me I'll try to walk in those uncomfortable shoes.

Paul well understood the duality concept and wrote extensively about it, always contrasting spirit and flesh. You can't miss it. Read Galatians 5 or Romans 8. It's not one becoming the other. It's one in complete opposition to the other, with both coexisting and struggling against each other.

Ah you are talking about the two minds...not two natures.
Philippians 2:5
You are born with a carnal mind...hence the war - "mind of the flesh V. mind of the spirit. Dont get sucked into the dual natures, which is the fanciful notions of men.
Ephesians 5:26 is the key to gaining the necessary weaponry to combat the carnal mind. Hebrews 4:12

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

How was Jesus made sin?
Another question is how was sin represented in Jesus on the tree?
The Christian would say "well, he took my sins to the cross!"
To which I reply "How?"

You said Jesus was flesh and blood. Nothing more nothing less.

I can't help you.

 

[MatthewG]

I think he had the ability to sin but he did not sin. If he did not have the ability to sin, then he would not make a good sacrifice for sin on our behalf. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 tells us that he had no sin. That does not mean he was incapable of sin. After all, he was the Son of man, the Son of God....

Ty

 

[MatthewG]

I'd like to elaborate on this a bit if that's okay. I'm happy to spin it off as a new thread if it's considered off-topic here, too simplistic or too complicated or too controversial or too mundane. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes. I do think it's at the heart of @MatthewG 's original post with respect to Jesus and what "nature" he was born with. There is an even more fundamental principle in play.

My aim is not to convince anyone, rather to simply present an idea for consideration. If it helps-- great. If it doesn't-- fine. It's up to the individual to decide what concepts they will accept or reject-- let the reader decide!

"Jesus" was a baby born in a barn (I like to say) some two thousand years ago. Very human. Very physical. And it was this physical, human beginning as a baby born in humble circumstances that makes him like us with respect to our common humanity. Like us in every way is what scripture stipulates. Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2)

"Made a man like his brothers in all things." That's pretty clear. Human. Human nature. He was born with it because he was born human, unless scripture is misrepresenting him regarding his making.

But what is human? If you can accept that this duality I mentioned exists and is a fundamental principle needed in order to understand it becomes easy to differentiate and simplify terms-- a higher heavenly nature that is spiritual and one that is lower, fallen and physical. A divine nature, and human nature. Good and evil, spirit and flesh. It's not an indictment. It's a description. It's a condition. The human condition.

To be born human is to be born with this condition called "flesh." Over and over scripture equates it with sin-- our human condition, our fallen state, our curse. But it is only one of our two natures. The other of course is spiritual and divine (of God). It's this distinction between two that we derive the terms or titles- Son of God, Son of Man. One spiritual- spirit, one physical- flesh. Scripture says-- Spirit gives birth to spirit- (son of God) and flesh gives birth to flesh-- (son of human).

From here and with this understanding you might grasp the idea that God (the Father) so loved the world that He sent His son (spirit gives birth to spirit) and this spirit-son descended from on high, from a heavenly place to a fallen, physical world and was born a man-- that baby, made like us in all things.... the perfect, holy, innocent, pure, spotless one-- the spirit-son of God descending into the poor, broken, sinful, flesh of humanity.

It's no slap upon the face of Jesus -- human flesh was the condition he was born with-- a birth defect we all share.

t4s brother

 

[Grailhunter]

Correct, to use Scripture to proves this we go to Hebrews 4:15 which also proves he was fully man fully human and condemned to die regardless of his sacrifice.

Hebrews does not prove He was only human. It proves His body was human.

God was in Christ only in Word - in the Masters thinking and while he had His fathers HS power this was used only to confirm his Sonship and to prove the authenticity of his message.

Yeshua had His own power. Nothing to say that He was tapping Yahweh's power.
John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:6 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Christ was rewarded with a divine nature - a change from flesh and blood to flesh and Spirit. His nail marks still visible in his body. Hebrews 1 shows his inheritance but of course it cannot be an inheritance if he was God.

Yeshua was a God when He was born. Maybe when he was conceived....How Gods relate to the time continuum is another topic.

Inheritance? Do you think Yeshua inherited being a God or a member of the Trinity?

 

[Mr E]

Ah you are talking about the two minds...not two natures.
Philippians 2:5
You are born with a carnal mind...hence the war - "mind of the flesh V. mind of the spirit. Dont get sucked into the dual natures, which is the fanciful notions of men.
Ephesians 5:26 is the key to gaining the necessary weaponry to combat the carnal mind. Hebrews 4:12

Tell me... Was man made with a mind of the flesh and a mind of the spirit? That's not what Genesis teaches. It says two natures-- one from below, of the earth and one from above-

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

It has nothing to do with "attitude" rather it's about Lordship. Which nature you follow. The flesh, or the spirit?

The dual natures are there in the very beginning- God created the heavens and the earth. Jesus prayed to our Father-- Thy will be done on heaven and earth. Fanciful notions? They are foundational concepts. Life and death.

 

[face2face]

Tell me... Was man made with a mind of the flesh and a mind of the spirit? That's not what Genesis teaches. It says two natures-- one from below, of the earth and one from above-

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

It has nothing to do with "attitude" rather it's about Lordship. Which nature you follow. The flesh, or the spirit?

The dual natures are there in the very beginning- God created the heavens and the earth. Jesus prayed to our Father-- Thy will be done on heaven and earth. Fanciful notions? They are foundational concepts. Life and death.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

We are just living creatures Mr E - nothing special about us only that we were made in His image after their likeness and we have the ability to reason upon His Word and to live moral lives.

Amen to the wise mans observations!

Same fate!
Same breath!
Same end!
No advantage

Accept this wisdom as its everywhere taught in the Scriptures.

 

[face2face]

Inheritance? Do you think Yeshua inherited being a God or a member of the Trinity?

If you believe Jesus preexisted then it wasnt an inheritance!

How can God inherit anything?

 

[Mr E]

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

We are just living creatures Mr E - nothing special about us only that we were made in His image after their likeness and we have the ability to reason upon His Word and to live moral lives.

Amen to the wise mans observations!

Same fate!
Same breath!
Same end!
No advantage

Accept this wisdom as its everywhere taught in the Scriptures.

Swing and a miss. I never said anything about human advantages over animals. Both have flesh and spirit. The flesh dies and returns to the earth from whence it came, the spirit returns to God (from whence it came).