Was Peter ever in Rome? What saith the Scriptures?

[aspen]

Ok, let's sort this out - Rex is opposed to me belonging to the Catholic Church AND not being Catholic enough, hence the title New Age Catholic.

Meshak is just opposed to me belonging to the Catholic Church, which does not allow me to follow Jesus, apparently.

Hopefully, that is an accurate protrayal of your positions.

Lets say you have a view of Christianity that is the same as any liberal believer that believes in god but doesn't believe in Jesus.

What does that mean? There are 'liberal believers' in Christianity that belong to the Unity-Unification church, who do not believe in a personal God at all and view Jesus as a guru - I am not in agreement with them.

There are 'liberal believers' in the Anglican church that believe Jesus was a man who followed the god of the NT as opposed to god of the OT; some Anglicans like Bishop Spong think the remedy for a dying Protestant Church is to take the theism out of Christianity - I am not in agreement with them either.

Other 'liberal believers' reject the doctrine of Hell and Sin - I believe in both.

In fact, I believe in every word of the Apostle's Creed and the Niciene Creed; and in the inspiration of the Bible. I believe we are saved by faith and sanctified as citizens of Heaven through the transformation of our hearts by the Holy Spirit into redeemed lovers of the Triune God and each other. This transformation is facillitated by our obedience to Christ, by practicing our sanctification daily through loving God and each other as servants. I believe in the power of prayer, as well, and have committed my life to listening to, and adoring God in prayer. Therefore, I am a bit confused about your negative description of my orthodoxy.

I really can't tell tell the differance between your theology and countless others that blend every religion under, we all worship the same God.

That is odd; I do not know of any other religion that requires a personal relationship and worship of the Trinity and a commitment to obediance through loving selflessly.

And meshak aspen has some real issues with God and the bible when it comes to accountability and judgment as well.

This is news to Aspen for sure! Perhaps Rex is confusing accountibility and judgment with universally applied, external standards of morality; and sadism?

He prefers to only accept the love and bubbles part and ignores the rest including accountability.

Well, I think we would all prefer to love selfeshly - that is the curse of Original Sin and why we cannot receive love from God, or give love back to God, without His justification and sanctification.

Everything is fine and dandy by aspen as long as you do it in love.

That is like saying 'everything is fine and dandy with a car that is inoperable as long as it runs perfectly.' It does not make sense because we were created to love like cars were created to run perfectly - if you are not loving selflessly / outwardly; you are loving selfishly / sinning. No need to make it more complicated.

Hes against any kind of correction from others because that not loving,

He is? How did you reach this conclusion?

He has little or no use for scripture

Translation: 'He has little or no use for prooftexting'

the ones he might reference are all paraphrased to meet aspens satisfaction rather than accepting them for what they mean or indicate.

Translation: 'the ones he might reference are all applied and in context rather than conformed to Rex's understanding of conservative, fundamentalist exergesis.'

If he doesn't like what he hears he runs off and accuses you of not being loving to him, love and bubbles according to aspen.

If you are acting like a jerk, Rex - I will make sure you know that I know it. Nothing personal. As far as 'running off' - perhaps you are confusing my hesistency to respond to your baiting posts and useless arguments as cowardice or evidence that I am not really a Christian? Whatever you need to believe, brother.


And now, on to Meshak:

So you call Jesus name caller too? Jesus called pharisees hypocrites.

Yes, Jesus did call the Pharisees hypocrites, just like Rex likes to name call. So what? I not condemning Jesus or Rex for doing so; although, I hope you can see a difference between Jesus and Rex, and their ability to label people accurately.

If nothing new, why dont you practice what Jesus commands?

Probably the same reason you do not follow His commandments consistently; we are not perfected yet, and still live in a fallen world - Paul lamented about the same problem in his letter to the Romans. The Good News, however, is that we can move towards perfection by practicing what we learn daily from the work of the Holy Spirit and the example of Christ in the Gospels. One day we will be perfect, selfless lovers, as we were created to be.

Have you investigate RCC's fruit they are producing in the past and still continuing to produce militant and ungodly fruit?Jesus says we know them by their fruit, not by their knowledge or what they claim..

I am well aware of the sins of the Catholic Church and the sins of the of the rest of Christianity. So if all Christian's and the churches they belong to, produce good AND bad fruit, what could Christ have meant by His declaration?

 

[meshak]

Ok, let's sort this out - Rex is opposed to me belonging to the Catholic Church AND not being Catholic enough, hence the title New Age Catholic.

Meshak is just opposed to me belonging to the Catholic Church, which does not allow me to follow Jesus, apparently.

Hopefully, that is an accurate protrayal of your positions.


What does that mean? There are 'liberal believers' in Christianity that belong to the Unity-Unification church, who do not believe in a personal God at all and view Jesus as a guru - I am not in agreement with them.

There are 'liberal believers' in the Anglican church that believe Jesus was a man who followed the god of the NT as opposed to god of the OT; some Anglicans like Bishop Spong think the remedy for a dying Protestant Church is to take the theism out of Christianity - I am not in agreement with them either.

Other 'liberal believers' reject the doctrine of Hell and Sin - I believe in both.

In fact, I believe in every word of the Apostle's Creed and the Niciene Creed; and in the inspiration of the Bible. I believe we are saved by faith and sanctified as citizens of Heaven through the transformation of our hearts by the Holy Spirit into redeemed lovers of the Triune God and each other. This transformation is facillitated by our obedience to Christ, by practicing our sanctification daily through loving God and each other as servants. I believe in the power of prayer, as well, and have committed my life to listening to, and adoring God in prayer. Therefore, I am a bit confused about your negative description of my orthodoxy.


That is odd; I do not know of any other religion that requires a personal relationship and worship of the Trinity and a commitment to obediance through loving selflessly.


This is news to Aspen for sure! Perhaps Rex is confusing accountibility and judgment with universally applied, external standards of morality; and sadism?


Well, I think we would all prefer to love selfeshly - that is the curse of Original Sin and why we cannot receive love from God, or give love back to God, without His justification and sanctification.


That is like saying 'everything is fine and dandy with a car that is inoperable as long as it runs perfectly.' It does not make sense because we were created to love like cars were created to run perfectly - if you are not loving selflessly / outwardly; you are loving selfishly / sinning. No need to make it more complicated.


He is? How did you reach this conclusion?


Translation: 'He has little or no use for prooftexting'


Translation: 'the ones he might reference are all applied and in context rather than conformed to Rex's understanding of conservative, fundamentalist exergesis.'


If you are acting like a jerk, Rex - I will make sure you know that I know it. Nothing personal. As far as 'running off' - perhaps you are confusing my hesistency to respond to your baiting posts and useless arguments as cowardice or evidence that I am not really a Christian? Whatever you need to believe, brother.


And now, on to Meshak:


Yes, Jesus did call the Pharisees hypocrites, just like Rex likes to name call. So what? I not condemning Jesus or Rex for doing so; although, I hope you can see a difference between Jesus and Rex, and their ability to label people accurately.


Probably the same reason you do not follow His commandments consistently; we are not perfected yet, and still live in a fallen world - Paul lamented about the same problem in his letter to the Romans. The Good News, however, is that we can move towards perfection by practicing what we learn daily from the work of the Holy Spirit and the example of Christ in the Gospels. One day we will be perfect, selfless lovers, as we were created to be.


I am well aware of the sins of the Catholic Church and the sins of the of the rest of Christianity. So if all Christian's and the churches they belong to, produce good AND bad fruit, what could Christ have meant by His declaration?

How am I not following Jesus' commands? Please explain.

If you know your organization's sins why do you still with her? Jesus says to come out of Babylon, lest you share her guilt. Why dont you take heed of Jesus' word?

 

[aspen]

1. How am I not following Jesus' commands? Please explain.

2. If you know your organization's sins why do you still with her? Jesus says to come out of Babylon, lest you share her guilt. Why dont you take heed of Jesus' word?

1. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us love perfectly and therefore, do not follow Jesus's commandments consistently - including you and me.

2. Because I have an accurate view of the state of humanity. There is no perfect organization or person or place to go. However, my relationship with Christ will slowly become my relationship with myself if I am pruned from the rest of the Tree - and we know where that leads. One of the differences between Catholics and Protestants is a basic surrendering to the reality of sin and and a rejection of the vain quest for perfectionism on Earth. Creating a new church or denomination whenever someone's humanity shows through the veneer of righteousness is just chasing rainbows. Fortunately, many Protestants have realized this as a waste of time, as well, but instead of simply gutting through all the imperfections of walking daily with Christ as a congregation, they have decided to reject church all together! Unfortunately, throwing out spiritual leadership, fellowship, and doctrine opens the door even wider to private interpretation of the scriptures, selfish love, reinvention of the wheel (when it comes to foundational doctrine - Trinity, application of the scriptures, the role of baptism, etc), and finally, righteous indignation towards those who disagree with them. Christianity is in real danger of moving from fracturing into denominations of churches to denominations of individuals.

Think of the disastrous affect this approach would have on a marriage. The institution of marriage is supposed to teach us how to be intimate with another person, which requires knowing and accepting and challenging and tolerating and commiting and growing and getting along with a person that will, at some point, drive you to insanity, if you let them. It is an intense and intimate version of our relationships with the rest of the Body of Christ. How can that happen if we applied the perfectionism to marriage that we apply to church? We would leave our spouse for a real spouse as soon as the honeymoon hormones subsided; eventually ending in a solitary existence.

One of the foundational reasons I left Protestantism for the Catholic Church was that instead of growing in Christ, my walk with God was subjected to a perpetual 'do over' - the concrete example of this phenomenon is the weekly alter call. Applied to marriage, it would be as rediculous as renewing your vows with your spouse, every morning. Yes, it effectively wipes out past wrongs, but it also retards all growth. Imagine my surprise when I investigated the Catholic Church and found spiritual maturity (not everyone) in the writings and history of the church and the leadership and even in the congregation that I was so warned about for being external, mindless drones! I found it entirely refreshing.

 

[meshak]

1. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us love perfectly and therefore, do not follow Jesus's commandments consistently - including you and me.

2. Because I have an accurate view of the state of humanity. There is no perfect organization or person or place to go. However, my relationship with Christ will slowly become my relationship with myself if I am pruned from the rest of the Tree - and we know where that leads. One of the differences between Catholics and Protestants is a basic surrendering to the reality of sin and and a rejection of the vain quest for perfectionism on Earth. Creating a new church or denomination whenever someone's humanity shows through the veneer of righteousness is just chasing rainbows. Fortunately, many Protestants have realized this as a waste of time, as well, but instead of simply gutting through all the imperfections of walking daily with Christ as a congregation, they have decided to reject church all together! Unfortunately, throwing out spiritual leadership, fellowship, and doctrine opens the door even wider to private interpretation of the scriptures, selfish love, reinvention of the wheel (when it comes to foundational doctrine - Trinity, application of the scriptures, the role of baptism, etc), and finally, righteous indignation towards those who disagree with them. Christianity is in real danger of moving from fracturing into denominations of churches to denominations of individuals.

Think of the disastrous affect this approach would have on a marriage. The institution of marriage is supposed to teach us how to be intimate with another person, which requires knowing and accepting and challenging and tolerating and commiting and growing and getting along with a person that will, at some point, drive you to insanity, if you let them. It is an intense and intimate version of our relationships with the rest of the Body of Christ. How can that happen if we applied the perfectionism to marriage that we apply to church? We would leave our spouse for a real spouse as soon as the honeymoon hormones subsided; eventually ending in a solitary existence.

One of the foundational reasons I left Protestantism for the Catholic Church was that instead of growing in Christ, my walk with God was subjected to a perpetual 'do over' - the concrete example of this phenomenon is the weekly alter call. Applied to marriage, it would be as rediculous as renewing your vows with your spouse, every morning. Yes, it effectively wipes out past wrongs, but it also retards all growth. Imagine my surprise when I investigated the Catholic Church and found spiritual maturity (not everyone) in the writings and history of the church and the leadership and even in the congregation that I was so warned about for being external, mindless drones! I found it entirely refreshing.

1) We are all sinners before accepting Christ's forgiveness of sins.

2) You should know that there is huge difference in hypocrisy and imperfection. Faithful ones are not perfect yet they are not hypocrites because they repent when they sin.

So you are making just excuses to condone hypocrisy which is not so good at all.

 

[aspen]

hmm... so after we say the magic words and become Christians than we no longer sin? interesting, since i have never met a person who loves perfectly all the time - have you?

the only difference between a hypocrite and a sinner who is not a hypocrite is that the hypocrites believes he no longer sins.

making excuses for sin? no. acknowledging the existence of sin - yes.

 

[meshak]

hmm... so after we say the magic words and become Christians than we no longer sin? interesting, since i have never met a person who loves perfectly all the time - have you?

the only difference between a hypocrite and a sinner who is not a hypocrite is that the hypocrites believes he no longer sins.

making excuses for sin? no. acknowledging the existence of sin - yes.

Who say just say magic words and become perfect? Why do you ignore what I just said?

You dont seem to know the difference between imperfection and hypocrisy. I am talking about obvious sins which is hypocrisy.

You are catholic; that's why I asked you to examine your church's fruit. and it does not seem to bother you that they have ongoing sins of your leaders sins not to mention violent history in the past.

Jesus says to come out of Babylong which you dont seem to honor.

 

[epostle1]

meshak, this one reason I quit posting in here. You assert lies about the Catholic Church, and never give supporting primary or secondary documentation. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalist hate propaganda; your posts scream of it. It is not Christ-like to propagate or nurture hatred towards a religion different from yours. Catholics don't do it to your group, please stop doing it to us.

Don't say you are teaching the truth about the Catholic Church. You are not.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kepha,

There is plenty of documentary evidence already displayed in these forums, to bring Biblical light to bear on church teachings which have no foundation in scripture, which were constructed by the agreement of men with men, without due regard to the pronouncements of God's ever-living, active word.

 

[meshak]

meshak, this one reason I quit posting in here. You assert lies about the Catholic Church, and never give supporting primary or secondary documentation. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalist hate propaganda; your posts scream of it. It is not Christ-like to propagate or nurture hatred towards a religion different from yours. Catholics don't do it to your group, please stop doing it to us.

Don't say you are teaching the truth about the Catholic Church. You are not.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. RCC has been disgracing Jesus' name with wicked practice by their leaders' sexual immorality. You guys have no authority to condemn anyone. You should clean up your own act, friend.

What did Paul say about the leaders? He says they should be spotless, yet many RCC leaders cannot even pick godly leaders.

 

[epostle1]

Hi Kepha,

There is plenty of documentary evidence already displayed in these forums, to bring Biblical light to bear on church teachings which have no foundation in scripture, which were constructed by the agreement of men with men, without due regard to the pronouncements of God's ever-living, active word.

The only "documentary evidence" displayed in these forums on Catholic teaching that have "no foundation in scripture" is opinion. Protestantism is based on opinion. The Principle of Private Judgement, a pillar of Protestantism, is based on opinion and can only operate within the framework of opinion. The extreme dysfunction of sola scriptura is based on opinion, its inception 500 years ago and the divisionary principle that it is practiced today. Your anti-Catholic "documentary evidence" that you refer to is a joke, and cannot withstand scrutiny. Threads like this usually degenerate into long lists of misrepresentations and falsehoods, you know the ones I am talking about.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. RCC has been disgracing Jesus' name with wicked practice by their leaders' sexual immorality. You guys have no authority to condemn anyone. You should clean up your own act, friend.

What did Paul say about the leaders? He says they should be spotless, yet many RCC leaders cannot even pick godly leaders.

Yes, and Jesus picked Judas. What have you to say to Him? And what about the 99.99% of "leaders" who are humble servants of the Gospel? Ignore them and focus on the few? Painting the whole church with the same brush the way you do is bigotry, plain and simple.

 

[meshak]

The only "documentary evidence" displayed in these forums on Catholic teaching that have "no foundation in scripture" is opinion. Protestantism is based on opinion. The Principle of Private Judgement, a pillar of Protestantism, is based on opinion and can only operate within the framework of opinion. The extreme dysfunction of sola scriptura is based on opinion, its inception 500 years ago and the divisionary principle that it is practiced today. Your anti-Catholic "documentary evidence" that you refer to is a joke, and cannot withstand scrutiny. Threads like this usually degenerate into long lists of misrepresentations and falsehoods, you know the ones I am talking about.


Yes, and Jesus picked Judas. What have you to say to Him? And what about the 99.99% of "leaders" who are humble servants of the Gospel? Ignore them and focus on the few? Painting the whole church with the same brush the way you do is bigotry, plain and simple.

Jesus says to come out of Babylon lest you share their guilt. I hope you know what Jesus is saying. Do you take heed of Jesus' word?

 

[epostle1]

Jesus is not talking about coming out of a Church He established. Your remarks are either sadistic or you are biblically and historically illiterate. Equating Babylon with the Catholic Church is in complete defiance of everything that is known of early church history. It is an anti-Catholic invention. Period. You have swallowed down whole every anti-Catholic LIE that you've read.

You are spreading hate.

 

[Rex]

Hey long time no see kepha I see you still have the vulcan mind meld thing going on with the pope and roman church LOL

>>>>>.............>>>>

......>>>>hows that working for YA

 

[mjrhealth]

I cant see any point in this discussion. Jesus could not convince the Religious of the truth even when He stood before them and performed miracles which proved who He was. Dont cast Pearls before the swine, they will not see them for what they are. The evidence of what the catholic church is, is recorded throughout history , from the begging if its foundation to today, there is nothing hidden from God, its sins have reached to heaven , and any who remain in her will be judged along with her for they have become partakers of her sins. God will not be mocked. Soon she will show her true colors for all the world to see, but the blind will not see and so will remain with her to be led to destruction. Who is you savior. you better think very hard on it.

In all His Love

No one is anti cathoilc, there are those who desire the truth and those who prefer the lie. It is very hard to justify a lie when teh evidence is all around you.


And for anyone who would like more info

http://biblelight.net/vatican.htm

And yes axehead there is a section on this topic just for you to read. about a little over halfway down.

 

[meshak]

Jesus is not talking about coming out of a Church He established. Your remarks are either sadistic or you are biblically and historically illiterate. Equating Babylon with the Catholic Church is in complete defiance of everything that is known of early church history. It is an anti-Catholic invention. Period. You have swallowed down whole every anti-Catholic LIE that you've read.

You are spreading hate.

So killing your enemy and killing non-trins are not hate?

You have strange way of showing "love", friend.

 

[Axehead]

The only "documentary evidence" displayed in these forums on Catholic teaching that have "no foundation in scripture" is opinion. Protestantism is based on opinion.

Hey there Kepha,

Have not seen you in awhile. But, I was expecting you to drop by since SIM was booted. He failed your training exercise and needs to go back to bootcamp to learn the fine art of "subtlety".

You gave me a laugh for the day. I see how you turn around on others what is well known about the RCC. "based on opinion".

Welcome back for as long as you will be here before finding a replacement for SIM.

Axehead

I cant see any point in this discussion. Jesus could not convince the Religious of the truth even when He stood before them and performed miracles which proved who He was. Dont cast Pearls before the swine, they will not see them for what they are. The evidence of what the catholic church is, is recorded throughout history , from the begging if its foundation to today, there is nothing hidden from God, its sins have reached to heaven , and any who remain in her will be judged along with her for they have become partakers of her sins. God will not be mocked. Soon she will show her true colors for all the world to see, but the blind will not see and so will remain with her to be led to destruction. Who is you savior. you better think very hard on it.

In all His Love

No one is anti cathoilc, there are those who desire the truth and those who prefer the lie. It is very hard to justify a lie when teh evidence is all around you.


And for anyone who would like more info

http://biblelight.net/vatican.htm

And yes axehead there is a section on this topic just for you to read. about a little over halfway down.

Thank you, mjr.

That is quite a comprehensive link you gave. Definitely worthy of bookmarking.

 

[epostle1]

So killing your enemy and killing non-trins are not hate?

You have strange way of showing "love", friend.

Again, you make assertions with no historical reference or documentation, and offer no context to any alleged event. You offer no
proof from half way reliable sources. I refuse to engage in discussion with you because you obviously are not capable of discussion. You are
spreading hate. You have been indoctrinated by liars and discussion with you is a waste of time.

So killing your enemy and killing non-trins are not hate?

That statement in itself is hate speech. You don't get it. You just make blanket assertions that are misleading, insulting, sadistic, and false.

 

[meshak]

Again, you make assertions with no historical reference or documentation, and offer no context to any alleged event. You offer no
proof from half way reliable sources. I refuse to engage in discussion with you because you obviously are not capable of discussion. You are
spreading hate. You have been indoctrinated by liars and discussion with you is a waste of time.


That statement in itself is hate speech. You don't get it. You just make blanket assertions that are misleading, insulting, sadistic, and false.

What is hate about it? I am only stating the reality and the truth. How can you say Jesus is your Lord and approving to kill your enemy at war?

Are you denying that your preists' pedophiles too?

You are simply dishonoring many of Jesus' word.

You should not cover up your organizational sin at expense of Jesus. It is a grave sin to cover up sins of professed Christians.

 

[Axehead]

What is hate about it? I am only stating the reality and the truth. How can you say Jesus is your Lord and approving to kill your enemy at war?

Are you denying that your preists' pedophiles too?

You are simply dishonoring many of Jesus' word.

You should not cover up your organizational sin at expense of Jesus. It is a grave sin to cover up sins of professed Christians.

meshak,

It is Kephas' new tactic to accuse others of hate speech. The fact of the matter is that when you speak the truth, he calls it hate speech because it exposes his religious organization. Don't let him bother you. Fear God and love His word.

 

[meshak]

meshak,

It is Kephas' new tactic to accuse others of hate speech. The fact of the matter is that when you speak the truth, he calls it hate speech because it exposes his religious organization. Don't let him bother you. Fear God and love His word.

It is just amazing they come up with all kinds of tactics to attack the truth being exposed.