We are judged by works, not by faith

[Ronald Nolette]

The Christian doctrine that is only about faith and not about works, do not believe the Father judges every man's work without respect of persons, but only with respect to the work done.

Well I do not preach a life without works. I believe exactrly as Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

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8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All I have been writing and quoting the Scriptures to prove so is that I am saved apart from works, I am made righteous apart from works. and I have also written that we are to do good works as a result of being made sons of God!

Whatcan you disagree with this bible truth?

 

[Marymog]

The Bible teaches us that our works judge us, not our faith. We aren't judged by what we believe, but by what we do.

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

In the Bible good works have always been necessary to be judged righteous with God. That includes all NT believers, because God is not a respecter of persons when righteously judging any man's work.

The Bible never says we are judged by our faith alone, and not by our works. We are justified by works, because our deeds judge our faith, whether it is of God or not.

Good works is not just a show of faith, but are the necessary means of being just and righteous with God. Christ comes to make our works truly good, because they are not from a pure heart of faith. He does not come to bypass works and judge us by our faith alone.

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

We see here how we are not only justified by our works, but we are also resurrected unto life by our works being judged as good with God.

Faith without works is so useless, because without the good works we do by faith, we do not receive the reward of inheriting the kingdom of God forever.

Faith is not the end goal. Good works are the goal of faith, because the reward of inheritance is by good works, not by faith alone.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Bible says being charitable in life is greater than faith. Faith and hope are important, and faith is the gift of God, so that we can please Him by doing good. Doing good and not evil is how we are judged by God to be worthy to walk with Him in white forever.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Faith without works is dead. That means we are judged by BOTH...not one or the other.

If you have faith but no works you are dead. If you have works but no faith in Him you are dead. If you have faith AND works....Halleluiah!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well I do not preach a life without works. I believe exactrly as Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:8-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All I have been writing and quoting the Scriptures to prove so is that I am saved apart from works, I am made righteous apart from works. and I have also written that we are to do good works as a result of being made sons of God!

Whatcan you disagree with this bible truth?

For the sake of discussion, what kinds of works does Paul have in mind here in Ephesians?

 

[Ghada]

Believers are resurrected!

No man other than Jesus Christ is bodily resurrected.

No Christian on earth is forever risen from the death of sins and trespasses, until enduring temptation unto the end.

Only those Christians having endured all temptation unto the grave, are now forever risen with Him into His presence. The rest of us still alive and remaining on earth, must first endure like they unto the end.

Both the ones with great reward and works and the others with less. Even some who had all their works burned.

We can be resurrected in Jesus' likeness without ministerial rewards, but not with unrighteous works unto death.

What congregation? Who mentioned one? Our salvation does not depend on anyone else 'accepting' it or not!

True. Being saved by Jesus does not depend upon the judgment of men. But the doctrine of being accepted by Christ by confessing faith alone only applies to men, not to Jesus Christ. Only them departed from all inquitiety are known by Him as His own elect.

Exactly. People who think some work such as nailing themselves to a cross,

More mockery of being crucified with Christ and taking up our cross with Him. Unrepented mockery after the correction.

Right. Lots of unsaved folks in the end.

Including Christians claiming salvation. The apostles were speaking of believers that were also mockers, because they do not believe all the words of the Bible. That especially includes the Christians mocking doing God's will at all times, and saying that is impossible and boastful.

Salvation has ZERO to do with works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Get over it.

No thanks. I'll stick with the Bible gospel. Yours is insufficient and believes unto unrighteousness, not unto doing the righteousness of God.

Not sure what that sanctimonious accusatory little slur is supposed to mean and to whom it is directed.

It's the gospel of only believing there is one God, but without works of doing His will.

James is neither sanctimonious nor slurring anyone, but only directing the truth of the Bible at whosoever reads it.

We can say that your own works are as filthy menstrous rags.

You certainly can, and have done so before, because no doubt they are.

The only works that are good are those after we are saved, done in love and by and for Jesus.

Now you preach the gospel of doing filthy and good. It's the gospel the serpent preached to Eve, with the promise that she would be as gods by her own faith alone, without there being any judgement when doing filthy.

Since only Jesus is righteous that means we need to put on Jesus. By abiding in Him after we are saved, we do righteousness, even if we appear unrighteous to men a lot like Peter did.

Peter wasn't appearing anything. He was doing unrighteously and to blamed. He also repented.

Those who think that sinning is only appearing to be unrighteous, are the same who call sinning only a 'bad habit'.

Biting our nails is a bad habit. Fornicating is sinning.

The gospel of Jesus Christ makes sinning exceeding sinful with need of repenting to be reconciled with God (Rom 7). The gospel of faith without works makes sin less sinful without need of repentance to be justified by Christ.

His righteousness is what counts. We should remember here that God is the judge and knows the hearts.

True. He judges all our works, which for Him begins with committing lust of heart.

Not you.

We are commanded by the Bible to judge one anothers works honestly and righteously. If we know of a Christian that is doing unrighteous works of the flesh, then we are to keep no company with him. (Matthew 18)(1 Cor 5) That would also include ourselves, if we are not remaining steadfast in Christ and going on with more sinning.

What you think is not what God needs to think. You see some people might claim that 'not doing righteousness' is not going to their church,

This is true. There are many sects of Christianity that divide the body of Christ according to their own assembly. It's been going on since the Apostles. It was also the error of the Pharisees that refused Jesus into their rule.

or having some bad habit we haven't yet kicked like you may have...etc etc

This of course is the Christian manner of making it less sinful. Sinning of the devil becomes just another 'bad habit' of man.

The Christian gospel of 'bad habits' to be kicked, makes sin to be less of the devil and more of habit.

Righteousness is actually about the heart and Jesus.

In the Bible being righteous is all about doing it. (1 John 3) Modern Christian liberalism says our Christian heart is still good, while our works are filthy. But non-Christian hearts are judged filthy while doing the same things.

Not your idea of right or wrong necessarily.

It's about what God says sin is in His Bible. His preachers preach what He says sin is, not what we say sin is.

Some people might think it is righteous to go to war and nuke people.

Bible Christianity is not humanist pacifism.

Says who?

Says those Christians that teaching being saved by faith alone with unrighteous works of the flesh. I only repeat what others teach, and if necessary, show how it differs from the Bible.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Christian liberty to sin while saved by faith alone, has been in the world since Jesus rose from the dead. The Jews liberty with sin was long before since Mt Sinai.

And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

How about your living?

Now you ask. I too have been a wretched double minded Christian in the past. But the reason I am delivered from it like Paul was by Jesus Christ, is because I never believed the gospel of being justified in double heartedness for life.

Now, today, I am pure and single hearted, holy and without blame with Jesus. I am walking as He walked, while continually doing the good work of daily cleansing my mind from all temptations of the devil. That is why and how we can daily live clean and godly from lust and filthiness of the world.

I am not today doing unrighteous works of the flesh, nor would I call them 'bad habits' if I were.

What is it you think makes you better than the sinners who realize they need improvements?

Because I'm not a sinner that needs to repent of past dead works. That is because I never called it needed 'improvements'. That is the teaching of Christian human progressivism, where we need to 'improve' on sinning, by sinning less, but never not sinning at all.

It's one thing as brethren to need help out of temptation and sin. It's another thing entirely to justify it by faith alone. That is where John says not to even bother praying for them, since they are purposed by doctrine and deed to sin unto death. (1 John 5)

Do you think those who Jesus died for and saved are not justified? Explain exactly why?

I'm not sure who it is on this site that teaches salvation in Christ is different from justification by Christ.

There is no one saved, that is not justified. That's why faith alone saves no man, because justification is by works, and not by faith only.

No one doing unrighteousness and not doing good, is now born of God, in the family of God, nor saved and justified by Christ. (Mark 3)(1 John 3) (3 John 1)

I never met anyone like this that was saved.

As I said. That's only because you congregate with Christians like yourself.

Did you?

Many. Because I seek them out and their churches. That did not always include myself, and I knew it. But thankfully those days are past for now. The temptation of tomorrow have not yet come, so we only take thought for today, and pass every day in the fear of the Lord.

The Christian doctrine of already saved forever, that has nothing to do with how we live, disanulls the fear of the Lord. Though sometimes lip service is given to it.

Why mention it?

To let you know not everyone is doing it like you and the people you congregate with.

 

[Ghada]

What is the pleasure of sin in your book? Any pleasure at all?

This is the problem with Christians that teach their own gospel by their own faith alone. They think they are the final judge on all matters according to their own book.

It's not our book nor our word that judges sin, but Jesus and His word and book.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It's up to us to repent and do Jesus words, not to decide for ourselves as much or little sin is acceptable to us by our own faith alone.

Too much food? You talk without saying anything. Be specific. You try to make it sound like most believers are not 'really' saved and that they engage in what you consider pleasures of sin?

It's certain Christians that teach continued unrighteousness, and do not believe we can do righteously and walk as Jesus walked. They also openly brag of their continued filthy rags living and unrepented 'bad habits'. I never ask for specifics, because I don't care. I only care about showing when their teaching is not Bible teaching.

You do realize self righteousness is not a good thing?

True. That includes all our own works of righteousness, which we do without the faith of Jesus in our hearts. It's practised by them that are only outwardly righteous, and also by them doing unrighteousness, while justifying themselves by faith alone.

Says who? You have made vague slurs against some vague group that does vague things that you think are some indication they are liars and evil hypocrites.

I quote their teachings of an imperfect conversion, as well as their own confessions of sinful living. I do not call them liars, because I have no reason not to believe they are still living sinfully. I also do not call them hypocrites, because they do live sinfully according to their own express daily faith of unrighteousness.

If that includes you, then that is your doctrine and confession, not mine. If that convicts you of being an hypocrite, then that is your conscience alone.

You however have accused the righteous, holy, and blameless saints of being self-righteous, just because they do not believe and live sinfully like you and your church does. And if you blame your own unrighteousness on 'everyone else' being unrighteous as you, then stop judging yourself and others by your own standard, and begin judging all things by Jesus' example.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The everlasting gospel is that Jesus died for OUR sins. That is good news.

True. And in the Bible only those obeying Jesus will obtain eternal salvation by resurrection from the dead.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Those Christians that say they are saved, or even the whole world are saved, because Jesus died on the cross, are not teaching the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

 

[Triumph1300]

We are justified by works, because our deeds judge our faith, whether it is of God or not.

Works come as a result of true salvation.
A true Christian automatic will do good.
The Bible says you shall know them by their fruits.
Salvation, faith and good works is a package.

 

[Ghada]

Heaven help anyone that thinks they are perfect, sinless, and always perfectly pure

That would include Jesus of course. He was a man of flesh and blood just like the rest of us. (Heb 4:15) So were His apostles. (Acts 14:15)(James 5:17)

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Jesus comes for the express purpose of making men newborn as He was, and walking as He walked from His youth up.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[Ghada]

Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection.
Paul says in Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul said in (Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Habakkuk 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word.

Let's take a look how faith and works go hand in hand, you can't have one with the other. Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? A person can have all the faith they want, but if they have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead.

Very refreshing on this site. Thank you brother.

When it comes to being justified by our works, we can also quote the Bible that says the just shall live by their faith,

The justified ones live by their faith. The just life they live justifies them.

Those of faith only without works are not living by their faith, and so are not justified by it.

 

[Ghada]

Works come as a result of true salvation.
A true Christian automatic will do good.
The Bible says you shall know them by their fruits.
Salvation, faith and good works is a package.

I agree the Bible teaches they are a package deal in Christ. When one is absent, so are all three. Just like the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

[dad]

No man other than Jesus Christ is bodily resurrected.

In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye-we shall be raised.. That would mean all of us.

No Christian on earth is forever risen from the death of sins and trespasses, until enduring temptation unto the end.

Wrong, we shall be raised incorruptible, like Jesus.

We can be resurrected in Jesus' likeness without ministerial rewards, but not with unrighteous works unto death.

Rewards aside, we will be like Him. Immortal. New bodies. This is news??

True. Being saved by Jesus does not depend upon the judgment of men. But the doctrine of being accepted by Christ by confessing faith alone only applies to men, not to Jesus Christ. Only them departed from all inquitiety are known by Him as His own elect.

Who said salvation depended on judgments of men?? Try to debate honestly.

Including Christians claiming salvation. The apostles were speaking of believers that were also mockers, because they do not believe all the words of the Bible.

Says you. If they had more than took a lookey loo at believers, and took the plunge and got saved, they would have done more than tasted.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

From that chapter we see this
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Why don't you tell us honestly right now if you have ever broken any commandment after coming to Jesus? We wait. This should be interesting.
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
Such faith that claims to have deeds won't save you! Faith in Jesus does! THEN and only then will and can you have deeds.

Yours is insufficient and believes unto unrighteousness, not unto doing the righteousness of God.

? Can you cite a few times today you have done 'the righteousness of God'? Then explain why you cast aspersions on other posters and believers, that they somehow have not? Sounds delusional.

Now you preach the gospel of doing filthy and good.

More falsehoods stream from your mouth as is come to be expected. Asking Jesus to save us is the antithesis of 'filthy'

It's the gospel the serpent preached to Eve, with the promise that she would be as gods by her own faith alone, without there being any judgement when doing filthy.

Being saved by the blood of Jesus is actually nothing like that. Really. He washes us and makes us clean. What can take away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. You show me your works without Jesus in you and I will show you Jesus works in us!

Peter wasn't appearing anything. He was doing unrighteously and to blamed. He also repented.

His heart was right because of Jesus. If he had met someone like you that night, who knows what filthy accusations he may have had to endure.

..same who call sinning only a 'bad habit'.

Whatever you want to call it, Jesus delivers us. He has begun a good work in us and will perform it unto the end. Regardless of the accuser of the saints.

Biting our nails is a bad habit. Fornicating is sinning.

So David is in hell? By the way, murder is also a sin and anyone that hates his brother is a murderer

The gospel of Jesus Christ makes sinning exceeding sinful with need of repenting to be reconciled with God (Rom 7). The gospel of faith without works makes sin less sinful without need of repentance to be justified by Christ.

Cut the pretense. Have you sinned this year at all?

True. He judges all our works, which for Him begins with committing lust of heart.

Says you. I am not sure how He will reward believers and if that is the big criteria be all end all for Him. I think He will look at if we gave our heart to Him or not.

We are commanded by the Bible to judge one anothers works honestly and righteously.

Nothing to do with salvation.

This of course is the Christian manner of making it less sinful. Sinning of the devil becomes just another 'bad habit' of man.

Are you sinless? Tell us. I still make mistakes and am not perfect yet. I do, however have a Lawyer before God. His name is Jesus.

The Christian gospel of 'bad habits' to be kicked, makes sin to be less of the devil and more of habit.

Not sure what that means. Apparently you seem to think you have no bad habits or sins and other believers do

In the Bible being righteous is all about doing it

'It'? Take 100 people and have them define "it" and I wager we get 100 different answers. Whatever 'it' may be, those pretending to be sinless and pure as the driven snow are not it!

Modern Christian liberalism says our Christian heart is still good, while our works are filthy. But non-Christian hearts are judged filthy while doing the same things.

If someone needs correction He gives it. Not you. You talk about filthy and sin in a vague way while making out as if you are pure. That tells us all we need to know!

Says those Christians that teaching being saved by faith alone with unrighteous works of the flesh.

You were saved when not a sinner? Do explain!

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Jesus promises us liberty! We are free indeed.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Some is an idolator here?? Be specific.

Now you ask. I too have been a wretched double minded Christian in the past.

You too? Someone else here was that? I must have missed the post.

But the reason I am delivered from it like Paul was by Jesus Christ, is because I never believed the gospel of being justified in double heartedness for life.

Never heard of anyone that did actually!

Now, today, I am pure and single hearted, holy and without blame with Jesus. I am walking as He walked, while continually doing the good work of daily cleansing my mind from all temptations of the devil. That is why and how we can daily live clean and godly from lust and filthiness of the world.

That's a mouthful. You are walking as He walked eh? Give details. You have never looked at a pretty woman for half a second accidentally? Was never angry with a believer? etc etc. Just asking, before I throw flower petals before your steps

I am not today doing unrighteous works of the flesh, nor would I call them 'bad habits' if I were.

Like what? Did you ever eat too much? Have a doubt? Say something you should not have?

Because I'm not a sinner that needs to repent of past dead works.

No, or present ones apparently!

That is because I never called it needed 'improvements'. That is the teaching of Christian human progressivism, where we need to 'improve' on sinning, by sinning less, but never not sinning at all.

No, apparently you do not need to do better whatsoever, you have arrived at sinless perfection! One hopes you have not fooled anyone with that nonsense.

I'm not sure who it is on this site that teaches salvation in Christ is different from justification by Christ.

Me either. All we can do is look at what we post. Any justification after being saved is not about salvation.

There is no one saved, that is not justified.

I agree, Jesus justified us. Those who imagine they run around justifying themselves are wrong though, of course.

That's why faith alone saves no man, because justification is by works, and not by faith only.

Only faith is Jesus saves us and anyone on earth. Nothing else. No works.

No one doing unrighteousness and not doing good, is now born of God, in the family of God, nor saved and justified by Christ.

Doing unrighteousness involves rejecting Jesus. It is not about some mistake after having Jesus in us forever.

 

[dad]

That would include Jesus of course. He was a man of flesh and blood just like the rest of us. (Heb 4:15) So were His apostles. (Acts 14:15)(James 5:17)

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Jesus comes for the express purpose of making men newborn as He was, and walking as He walked from His youth up.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Does that mean you confess to thinking you are without sin and pure and perfect?

 

[dad]

That would include Jesus of course. He was a man of flesh and blood just like the rest of us.

He was without sin. The rest of us weren't

(Heb 4:15) So were His apostles.

No.

(Acts 14:15

Acts 14:15
"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

So the apostles told folks to turn from idols. Not sure why you cited that verse?

(James 5:17)

James 5:17 E
Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

Any reason you posted this verse? (as if it helped your works trip)

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

True. Any reason you posted that verse? Or is this spam a random verse day?

Jesus comes for the express purpose of making men newborn as He was, and walking as He walked from His youth up.

He said He came that they might have life actually.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Yes in the last days there will be unbelieving scoffers. Should we take it that you are trying to paint those as saved folks?

 

[dad]

This is the problem with Christians that teach their own gospel by their own faith alone. They think they are the final judge on all matters according to their own book.

Another dishonest strawman diversion. Accusing believers of preaching their own gospel.

It's not our book nor our word that judges sin, but Jesus and His word and book.

Who asked you about judging sin? Maybe try identifying what you are trying to say other posters' sin is here?

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Another random verse. Wait, should we think that saved posters here who do not get on the works trip train have rejected Jesus and His words!?

It's up to us to repent and do Jesus words, not to decide for ourselves as much or little sin is acceptable to us by our own faith alone.



It's certain Christians that teach continued unrighteousness,

Another demented slur. Believers that realize they are saved and not by works are not teaching 'unrighteousness!

and do not believe we can do righteously and walk as Jesus walked.

Another dishonest insane accusation. One does righteously when one gets saved and then Jesus in us sees that we bear fruit. One does not walk around thinking he is 'doing righteously' to get or stay saved.

They also openly brag of their continued filthy rags living and unrepented 'bad habits'.

Lurkers, review the posts in the thread here. I have not seen one bragging about doing evil or not repenting!

I never ask for specifics, because I don't care. I only care about showing when their teaching is not Bible teaching.

So you like to cast firebrands randomly hoping someone gets burned? Let me be specific. You are not perfect sinless and pure. Will you admit it?

True. That includes all our own works of righteousness, which we do without the faith of Jesus in our hearts. It's practised by them that are only outwardly righteous, and also by them doing unrighteousness, while justifying themselves by faith alone.

It includes all sin. Past present or future. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our sins from us! He that is washed by Jesus is clean every bit!

I quote their teachings of an imperfect conversion,

What does that even mean? That when people get saved they are not yet perfect, as some pretend to be?

as well as their own confessions of sinful living.

What does that mean, if they don't pretend to be a whitened sepulcher they confess sinful living?? Try to make your little slogans clear here rather than spamming them.

I do not call them liars, because I have no reason not to believe they are still living sinfully. I also do not call them hypocrites, because they do live sinfully according to their own express daily faith of unrighteousness.

No? Great, you almost had me fooled with all that they are 'filthy rags' talk yesterday!

If that includes you, then that is your doctrine and confession, not mine. If that convicts you of being an hypocrite, then that is your conscience alone.

No, that does not even make sense let alone make me feel far from God!

You however have accused the righteous, holy, and blameless saints of being self-righteous,

Would that be you by any chance? You think you are righteous and sinless and pure? Be specific, come out of the closet. I am not accusing anyone, I am pointing out we are a work in progress. Not walking on eggshells about to lose our salvation at the first imagined impure thought or deed!

just because they do not believe and live sinfully like you and your church does.

?? You are the one who said others are accusing people here??

And if you blame your own unrighteousness on 'everyone else' being unrighteous as you, then stop judging yourself and others by your own standard, and begin judging all things by Jesus' example.

Now I am unrighteous? How is that? You had a dream? Vision? Secret camera? What gives you the right to call other posters here you do not know unrighteous??

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Very true. That verse is posted...why? It relates to the issue...how? That has what to do with your insults, accusations, and bad mouthing of saved people that realize they were saved by faith?

True. And in the Bible only those obeying Jesus will obtain eternal salvation by resurrection from the dead.

In what way do you think you obey Jesus that other posters here do not, exactly? Or do you just like to make it sound like you poop jelly beans?

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In other words Paul endured a lot to help others find Jesus and salvation. Did you think that meant that Paul thought he was saved by enduring stuff??

Those Christians that say they are saved, or even the whole world are saved, because Jesus died on the cross, are not teaching the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

So it is not Jesus and His death that saved us? You are on thin ice there pal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For the sake of discussion, what kinds of works does Paul have in mind here in Ephesians?

Well poutside of the standard biblical ones common to all believers (love, caring, meeting needs etc.) the rest are set for each indiviual.

Example god decides who are to be missionaries and which country they should serve in. The good works are more concerned with the individual plan of God for an individual not so much the will of God which is identical for all believers.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well poutside of the standard biblical ones common to all believers (love, caring, meeting needs etc.) the rest are set for each indiviual.

Example god decides who are to be missionaries and which country they should serve in. The good works are more concerned with the individual plan of God for an individual not so much the will of God which is identical for all believers.

I agree.

I posed the inquiry as I am aware that different Christian denominations hold varying viewpoints on the matter. For instance, Catholics believe that salvation is attained by grace, which can only be received through the sacraments. On the other hand, some Christians propose that engaging in charitable activities such as feeding the impoverished and aiding the homeless is what guarantees salvation. While I personally do not subscribe to the former belief, I acknowledge that others do.

I was hoping that @Ghada would answer so that I might understand what is at stake for Ghada. What is the story behind this thread?

 

[Ghada]

It is for those who were Raptured and all believers actually.

Were raptured? Did we miss Jesus second coming and the first resurrection of the church?

Has the bodily resurrection of other saints already passed?

 

[Ghada]

Not at the judgment seat of Christ for believers. That iis for us and where crowns etc are given out.

Only for those whose works are judged worthy of God in Christ Jesus.

You seem to be conflating the judgment of the wicked after the 1000 years with the judgment of Jesus with believers.

The rest of the dead will include all the wicked dead of history, including the unrighteous believers appointed with the hypocrites at His second coming.

How about you? Are you sinless now? Pure? Worthy etc?

At this time today, yes. We can only answer for today, not tomorrow, and yesterday is passed.

What if the soldiers had killed Peter that day he was denying Jesus and cussing etc?

Would he have 'sinned unto the grave'? How about David?

That's what the Bible calls dying in our sin. Peter was not a forgiven and saved Christian at that time. Neither was David a man after God's own heart when sinning with Bathsheba and having her Hittite husband killed.

Paul (the chief of sinners) etc etc

This is a pseudo-Paul of another gospel taught by wilfully sinning Christians. They want to justify themselves by accusing all others of being the same as they.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The Paul of the Bible was the chiefest example of how any man can be drawn of the Spirit and come to Jesus and be forgiven and delivered from all our past life. That included Saul of Tarsus who was the chiefest of persecutors of the church and wasters of the faith.

The Bible Paul as a converted believer and apostle of Jesus Christ, was not still a blaspheming, persecuting, and destroying enemy of the church as a converted Apostle of Jesus Christ.

It shows how some Christians seeking to justify their sinful living, will go to any length to falsely accuse anyone else as being just like them.

Not a topic in this thread either that I have seen. That makes it a strawman claim.

I just plainly say what others are teaching without the pretty speeches and doctrinal garnish.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Christians teaching they are not judged and condemned for their sinful works with unbelievers doing the same things, are teaching a hypocritical and unjust judge.

No. That was someone unsaved. Their heart was therefore not right. Nor therefore would their actions be right either. You do not get to try to apply that to the people Jesus died for and that came to Him.

It was the hypocritical religious teaching of some Jews, and is also of some Christians. It's nothing new in the covenants of God:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God... Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Some Jews boasted that having the oracles of God alone, excused themselves from the same judgment of others while breaking the law of Moses. Some Christians make their boast of grace and faith alone to also excuse themselves while transgressing the law of Christ.

The world was given cause by such hypocritical believers to blaspheme God's law then, and to blaspheme His grace now.

That is correct as far as salvation, if they believe in Jesus! Another term some use for that is 'saved sinner'.

There are many Christian sinners, as well as some that teach being a Christian sinner. Their gospel is for willful sinners and full of sinning. And they never ever preach the Bible gospel of being pure hearted, holy, and blameless in all manner of our lives.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Contrast that to the hypocrite beating his chest thanking God he is not as these other men!

More mockery of the pure hearted and righteous in Christ, by comparing them all with all self-righteous boasters.

So we must ask what is that talking about?

To ask what simple words mean, is what Paul calls it doting about foolish questions and striving about normal words.

In the Bible, he that is doing such things means he that is doing such things.

We know it is not talking about saved people.

This is true. In the Bible those doing such things are not saved people, because saved people are not doing such things.

The difference between saved and unsaved people are the things we are doing. The Father judges our works, not our personal beliefs.

Galatians 6:8
because the one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

How do we sow to the Spirit? We get saved! We accept His free gift of eternal life. Then He comes to live in us.

In the Bible sowing is how we walk. Not just what we think.

After we are saved, we receive rewards according to our deeds. If not saved, then we are judged eternally by our deeds. That is why Jesus died, to save us from that.

True. Those walking as He walked are the saved Christian saints in Christ Jesus. Those not walking as He walked are judged for still walking after the flesh instead of after the Spirit.

 

[Ghada]

Whoa! You made that up. Only His blood and sacrifice made us worthy!

It's not in your gospel, but is made true in the Bible.

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Bible worthiness is how we walk, not just what we think about ourselves.

Those walking after the Spirit holy and blameless are worthy to walk in white with God. Those walking after the flesh defiling themselves are not.

When we abide in the Vine we walk worthily.

Such is the gospel of faith without works. Doing and walking is believing only, not doing and walking.

They are white because Jesus living in them made them white. Not because they worked hard and bought some expensive paint to look white.

More mocking them that do righteousness, by comparing them to whitewashed painters only.

 

[Ghada]

Those saved are in the light. Jesus is the light. To get saved they had to come to the light. Those still in darkness did not come to the light, but loved darkness rather than light.

Which is by deeds. The Bible judges deeds. The faith alone gospel says nothing of deeds.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Not real believers, then, and not saved. Nominal church members.

Real believers in Christ are doing the word of God. Not those really believing they are saved and full of light.

The fear of God starts us on the road to get saved. We seek, we find. We are saved by faith alone. Then with Him in us, we can actually bear fruit and have some works rather than standing there beating the air thinking we are working hard.

This is an improvement over the gospel of faith without works.

It's the gospel of faith with some works good, some works evil.

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Yes, we need to try to watch our words, Jesus emphasized this. However, when Peter cussed up a storm that does not mean he was hell bound.

The gospel of cursing lips and filthy rags living, is not the gospel nor the deliverance nor the salvation of Jesus Christ from our sins.

It meant he has a lot to learn. As do we all. Hence, what our sojourning here is largely about!

The sojourning here of the Bible, is in being holy and without blame in all our manner of living.

The sojourning here of the cussing filthy version of the Bible, is all about learning how to do it less, and hopefully not in public.

The sinning less gospel is never at any time on earth, ever about being holy and without blame in all our manner of living

No. It points out that devils of course also believe. That does not equate devils with the saved.

True. It equates the unsaved with faith alone to the devils. James 2 also shows how the devils have more fear of the Lord, than Christians that believe they are not judged the same as others doing the same things.

. James was admonishing folks to walk circumspectly. We already know that God chastises us. Every one that is saved! If we were perfect already that would not be needed!

Correct. The Christians walking in the light and not in darkness, are not chastised as Christians walking in darkness and not in the light.

In no possible way does any of that mean He died for nothing and that we can work up salvation or keep ourselves saved by working up a steaming pile of works. People who pretend or think they can smell like a toilet that needs flushing.

The mockery of doing righteousness at all times, is just getting filthier and filthier.

Strawman. You are conflating justified with saved. Then you are lumping in unsaved wicked sinners with less than yet perfect saved people. etc.

In the gospel of less and less sinning, there's no such thing as 'yet' perfect Christians. Only never yet walking as Jesus walked.

That is another thread.

So, you stop at having the whole world saved in the end. Quite a standard there.

Yet all are saved who are saved.

Impressive.

To do that we need to be saved! Then He does stuff in us, corrects us, leads us, empowers us, etc etc.

The gospel of saving faith without works comes with power to never yet be perfect of heart and blameless in life.

Not some personal works trip.

More mockery of walking as Jesus walked.

You're the one who made the grand statement of "God help any man" that thinks he is perfect and whole with God.

That mocks Jesus' walk, along with them walking as Jesus walked.

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

If they mock Jesus' walk, they will certainly mock them walking with Him.

 

[dad]

Were raptured? Did we miss Jesus second coming and the first resurrection of the church?

Has the bodily resurrection of other saints already passed?

The rapture was mentioned by me in this context
"Not after we already have life. For the saved, the judgment seat of Christ involves rewards".

In case you really do not comprehend rather than are being dishonest, I will explain. I believe that it is after we are raised up into the air to meet Him (Raptured) and go to His Father's that Jesus rewards us. (Bema Judgment seat of Christ) So yes that would be after the Rapture. In no way does that mean, obviously, that the Rapture already happened.