We are judged by works, not by faith

[Wynona]

That is a Confusing theology:

1) saints sinning does matter:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever​

a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Gal 6:7)​

​

2) can't lose your salvation no matter what?:

Yes, many warnings, and we should strive to live holy! However, ​

God's Salvation Is Eternal, not 'temporary' as some propose:​

a) Because of: God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD! ( cannot be Emphasized Enough )
ALL Of our sins are "Paid For" and:

b) All of the Following 'Eternally' apply to all true believers, saved by "Grace Through Faith":

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

c) Judgment Day Confirmation - 1 Corinthians 3:8-15,

"reaping what was sown"? v. 15:​

​

"...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer​

loss: but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire.​

​

Precious friend/family, and New baby, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And
Edified In The LORD, and In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

There are many verses in Scripture that warn us that we can lose our salvation.

1 Cor 15:1-2 for example, lets us know we can believe in vain.

To stay on topic, I would have to agree with Ghada's assertion that God is not a respecter of persons. If we only have faith but produce bad fruit, we will be cut down and thrown into the fire just like any wicked person.

I do not hope to convince you per se. I believe many on this forum can get to the point where they just don't see certain verses so I don't find it useful to debate with them on this issue. But if any are on the fence like I was, they can hopefully learn from the mistake I made of relying on modern preachers/teachers and go look at the Scripture itself in context to get their answers.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

People who put themselves forth as authoritative teachers of the Bible ought first be at least familiar with all the Bible. Especially if they are teaching doctrine that can either help or harm the church.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Well as their hundreds of allegorists out there preaching dozens of different interpretations via symbology, like you do, I prefer to go with what is actually being said instead of what it might or may or could or possibly mean.

And you should stop with the arrogant accusations, you are not jesus.

Exactly. The blood of the Lamb of God is not that of a bull or goat that only covers sins, but washes all the past life away.

Even in the OT, sins weren't covered until the sacrifice was offered in blood. Being already forgiven of present and future sins would be a disanullment of the sacrifice to OT believers.

The Lamb of God remains a daily sacrifice to us, only so long as our sins remain in the past.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now you sound very Romanish. which contradicts Scripture:

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

So give me an answer simply, Are you saying future sins are uncovered bvy the blood Jesus shed on the cross. I do not need a theology lesson, just a simple yes or no.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Present willfully sinning has no reconciliation nor fellowship nor forgiveness of God by Jesus Christ. If we do sin wilfully, then we can and must repent and come to the Advocate of the whole world, just like any sinner of the world.

We are told that even if we do forsake God to wilfully sin with the devil, then the race is not over for us, but even as the Jews that slew the Lord, we can still be grafted in again.

Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So are you preaching sinless perfection or one is lost?

Believing by hearing only, without doing the word of truth, is judged as unbelief by God, because it's dead.

Well I believe saving faith produces good works. but the works confirm the faith.

Onjce again using the Hebrews verse shows you are ill informed as to its intent and meaning.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

To stay on topic, I would have to agree with Ghada's assertion that God is not a respecter of persons. If we only have faith but produce bad fruit, we will be cut down and thrown into the fire just like any wicked person.

Saving faith produces good works. When one is saved- one becomes a new creature, given a new m ind, a new direction, a new family and Father, and new desires.

We are saved apart from any work but saving faith works.

 

[Keiw]

The Bible teaches us that our works judge us, not our faith. We aren't judged by what we believe, but by what we do.

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

In the Bible good works have always been necessary to be judged righteous with God. That includes all NT believers, because God is not a respecter of persons when righteously judging any man's work.

The Bible never says we are judged by our faith alone, and not by our works. We are justified by works, because our deeds judge our faith, whether it is of God or not.

Good works is not just a show of faith, but are the necessary means of being just and righteous with God. Christ comes to make our works truly good, because they are not from a pure heart of faith. He does not come to bypass works and judge us by our faith alone.

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

We see here how we are not only justified by our works, but we are also resurrected unto life by our works being judged as good with God.

Faith without works is so useless, because without the good works we do by faith, we do not receive the reward of inheriting the kingdom of God forever.

Faith is not the end goal. Good works are the goal of faith, because the reward of inheritance is by good works, not by faith alone.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Bible says being charitable in life is greater than faith. Faith and hope are important, and faith is the gift of God, so that we can please Him by doing good. Doing good and not evil is how we are judged by God to be worthy to walk with Him in white forever.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Yes judged by works, but by ones faith as well. All those serving false gods will get a negative judgement, even if they have good works. Here at Matt 7:22-23--Jesus teaches about those called christian who did many powerful works--Get away from me, you who work iniquity( lawlessness)= practiced a sin) i must confess i never even knew you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes judged by works, but by ones faith as well. All those serving false gods will get a negative judgement, even if they have good works. Here at Matt 7:22-23--Jesus teaches about those called christian who did many powerful works--Get away from me, you who work iniquity( lawlessness)= practiced a sin) i must confess i never even knew you.

If one serves a false god, they cannot produce any good works in god's eyes. romans 8, 1 Cor. 2.

 

[ElieG12]

If one serves a false god, they cannot produce any good works in god's eyes. romans 8, 1 Cor. 2.

According to Jesus that is false.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Good works are not automatic but require a lot of effort and endurance. Although many people believe that they are already "saved", no one really is, because salvation will come after surviving the judgment that God will bring upon everyone...not before. Jesus said:

Matt. 24:13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

Not even Paul believed he was already saved:

1 Cor. 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

This idea that one is already saved is nothing more than wishful thinking, and it is a trap that causes people to stop improving and change the things that they have to change to actually receive salvation in the end.

Phil. 3:10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the (...) resurrection from the dead.

 

[Ghada]

In a manner of speaking, yes, God will judge our works, not necessarily our beliefs.

If we believe the Bible, then in any manner of speaking the Father does judge every man, regardless of beliefs, according to our works.

Remember, though, that we can choose what we believe, and sometimes for fleshy reasons, leaving our belief subject to judgment as well.

True. We can either choose to believe all the words of the Bible, or not. And also we can choose to do the words or not. The Bible says that by not doing the word, our faith we have is dead.

They have a faith, just not God's saving faith.

Whether we will have life or not will be determined whether we've entered life in Christ being born from God.

Which will be determined by judgement of our works.

Being born of God is taught differently between the Bible and some other gospel.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Being born of God in the Bible is always with the good and righteous works of Jesus' faith.

This comes from God Himself, not ourselves, when we believe Him, His message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To those who received Him, believing into His Name, to them God gave the right to become childen of God . . . who were born of God.

Until we are obedient sons of God, our faith remains dead, and we are not born of God.

The Bible says plainly only those doing His will are born of God and are members of His family.

If you've been born of God, you have life in Him, and will live with Him in the ages to come.

If we are doing His will.

These doctrine-spun words sound fair and pretty enough, but they have no substance of righteous and good works. They divert from living godly, and only offer a fair speech of 'living with God' without living godly.

If you have not been born from Him, you have no eternal life, and must be born again, or you will be condemned.

True. And all doers of such unrighteous works of the flesh are judged and condemned by their ungodly works.

Believers without doing good are judged and condemned the same as unbelievers not doing good.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God is not a respecter of persons based upon faith alone, but justly judges every man's works the same, if we are doing the same, whether good unto life, or sinful unto death.

Those who refuse Christ do so because they know they sin, and they don't want it exposed.

Absolutely true in John 3. That includes believers by hearing only, as well as unbelievers not naming His name.

The unbelievers are more honest.

Those who repent come to the Light, that the light shine on their lives, being born again into righteousness, the righteousness of God through faith.

Another spun empty faith speech, that says nothing of the doing the truth. All faith and coming and light, and no works nor deeds. It's like Jesus looking for the fruit on the tree, and only finding many bright leaves.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Bible says we come to God, that our deeds may be judged as good.

Teachers of faith alone without works, can't even so much as speaks of deeds and works in the same sentence as their speeches of faith only.

This is where we distinguish with any form of righteousness we can gain for ourselves, and the righteousness of God which is by faith, which excells over our own righteousness as does the Spirit of Christ over our flesh.

I.e. our past works of good or evil, before coming to Christ, mean nothing to God and are all counted as filthy rags to Him, no matter how neighborly we were.

Our present works and deeds with Jesus, are now good and righteous altogether. And our works at the end are judged to be reward with resurrection unto life, or unto shame.

What we do in our bodies does nothing towards giving us the kind of righteousness which God has.

This is faith without works taught with an appearance of humility.

What we did, does nothing toward being justified with God. What we now do does everything towards being justified with God and judged worthy to be rewarded with resurrection from the dead unto life.

Inheriting the everlasting kingdom of Christ is only for them doing His will unto the end.

Believing Him and His will is good, without doing it, is worse then the unbelievers, that do not shame Him by naming His name with lips only.

But through faith, that is the righteousness which we receive.

We receive the righteousness of God with a whole new life born of God. We do His righteousness to be justified in our faith, that it is of God, or of ourselves alone.

The fact is, you cannot do works to be judged righteous sufficiently to live with God.

The Bible fact is we cannot be judged righteous and justified to live with God now nor in the resurrection, without doing His righteousness.

The main problem with the faith alone gospel without works, is that it applies what is true about our past lives without Christ, to our present lives with Christ.

That disannuls the judgment of God by our works, and replaces it with our own faith alone.

Already being dead in sin, in corrupt flesh, already condemned, nothing you can do can erase that.

True. We are not washed clean by our past works without Christ. We are kept clean by our present righteous works in Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God is not sinning; but he that is begotten of God is keeping himself, and that wicked one is touching him not.

Once again, the main problem is applying our old sinful lives before Christ, to our present lives in Christ.

Only in Christ, Only in Jesus' death and resurrection, by faith in Him, can you be made righteous.

This is the partial doctrine of Christ, that always falls short by faith alone.

The Bible says only by doing His righteousness are we being righteous as Him.

This is doctrinally parsing between being made righteous by faith only and being righteous by works. As though there were a difference.

Separate being made righteous from being righteous, can only come from separating faith from works. The Bible doesn't.

And nothing you can ever do, nothing, you being but a man, can add anything to the righteousness of Christ, the righteousness of God Himself, given you in Him, being born again, joining Him in His death and resurrection, and living in His life.

Only the dishonest self-righteous Christians, like the Jews, think to add their own special commandments and rules to the law of Christ, so that they are more righteous than Jesus, and condemn Him by their own rules.

The dishonest Christians on the other side of the sword, are the ones trying to take away from His righteousness, in order to bring His will down to their own sinful level.

 

[Ghada]

The reality is far greater than this.

I.e. the verses are given as demanded, and then disbelieved and set aside. I already know some Christians have no regard for all the words of the Bible. But still, I must fulfill all righteousness in teaching doctrine. I also love repeating any and all words of the Bible.

The reality of another faith and gospel, is that it is greater than the Bible. Some Christians preach a greater gospel than that of the Bible. They think they are more forgiving and merciful than the God of judgment by works in the Bible.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Many things can be said that sound really great, and claim to be really great, but anything made greater than the words of the Bible are not really great at all. Except in a deceivable way.

This really great teaching of all sins past, present, and future being already forgiven by faith alone, is an accusation against God's judgement by works. It accuses God of being unjust to judge us by our works, so long as we have faith to believe there is one true God.

Being justified by our own faith alone, declares God can't judge us anymore by our works, and He would be unjust to do so.

 

[Ghada]

John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God did everything on His side to reconcile us to Himself, removing all of our sins. There is no past present or future here, this is the sin of the world. All of it, carried away by Jesus.

So long as present and future sinning is included, then this teaches that the judgement of all sinning was taken away, and God no more judges us by our works. That's how some Christians claim never to be condemned, no matter what works they are now doing.

In the Bible; however, Jesus is the propitiation for since of the whole world. The one price of death for all sinning has been paid for by Jesus at the cross. That means no matter how sinful we were before Christ, our past sins were not so great, that He could not forgive them all and wash us completely clean and new and of God.

That's why Paul referred to himself as the chiefest example of being forgiven for his past persecution of the church.

Those that teach all present and futures sins are also forgiven, also say Paul was claiming to still be the chiefest of sinners as a Christian and called apostle of Jesus.

What remains is that we receive the reconciliation.

What remains is to repent of sinning, so that Jesus can apply His propitiation to us personally, and cleanse us of our past and make all things now new and of God.

The price of death for any and all sins of the world has been paid for. But applying that propitiation is only for them that repent of their sinning and serve God rather than the devil.

Even while we were God's enemies, God reconciled us to Himself in Christ. And in Christ, we can receive that reconciliation, being born again into His righteousness.

Once again, this is equating our past life without Christ, with our present life with Christ.

That is only true with the hypocrites still sinning, and claiming justification with God by faith alone.

 

[Ghada]

If God raises them doing unrighteousness unto life, then He would need repent of His judgement of the devil and the angels that sinned. Because He would be resurrecting many unrighteous children of the devil unto life.

Really?

God can resurrect anyone from the dead unto life with Him. But if He does so for the unrighteous, then He must also restore the devil to life in his unrighteousness.

Some even preach another gospel that says so. I used to try and think all men would be saved, including Hitler, so that I knew I would go to heaven too. Of course, that was just unrepentant delusional thinking. But I never included the devil and his sinning angels, like some are willing to do.

The real error here is some people thinking they are more just and holy and merciful and loving than the God of the Bible, that does and shall judged every man's works, whether to justify or condemn.

They believe it is unjust of God to do so, because of all the unrighteous and wicked that will be judged and condemned with separation from Himself forever and ever.

I.e. their siding with the devil who says he has been unjustly judged by a God that does not want any of His creatures to be like Him.

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Plenty of people believe the God of the Bible is a power-hungry tyrant unjustly causing evil in the world, and then judging men for doing it.

Some Christians try to rectify that, by teaching He's not a judge by works God after all, and He's going to make sure all mankind lives with Him forever, and if that included the devil, then so be it.

After all, God is live, right?

 

[Ghada]

Well said @Ghada

Psalm 106:3 KJV​

​

​

3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Many of us have adopted a defeatist mentality towards sin. We think we cannot possibly stop sinning, so we've made theology that will ease our guilty conscience. Theology that says sin doesn't matter for believers and that you can't lose your salvation no matter.

True. We all know the source of the faith without works gospel. It's just to justify the unrighteous believers alongside the righteous by faith alone.

It teaches that God is unjust to judge the believers works, while judging the unbelievers works, who are doing the same things.

In Romans 2, we see how the Jews thought themselves justified simply by having the oracles of God, even while transgressing them. The same goes today for Christians who think themselves justified simply by having faith in the word, even while not doing it.

I used to believe this and sin took over. But my goal now is a consistent life of righteousness before God so I can minister effectively to others.

True. Paul says such teachings lead to more ungodliness. And the teachers of it prove it by saying it's not possible to live godly and walk as Jesus walked.

Their faith alone ends in unbelief the heart.

This is not easy. But God deserves our best in resisting sin.

Actually, it is easy in Christ Jesus when given whole heartedly to His grace, Spirit, love and power.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It's at least easier then being transgressors trying to will ourselves into heaven by our own faith alone.

Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.

In a way, needing to counter unbiblical teaching that leads to more ungodliness, makes us even more purposed to ensure we don't fall by the same error.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[ElieG12]

Rom. 2:3 But do you suppose, O man, that while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance? 5 But according to your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment. 6 And he will pay back to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Repentance implies not continuing to do works that God dislikes and for which he will destroy many people... because he wants those who love the right things and the truth to live forever without the wicked continuing to ruin peaceful and just conditions that meek people need to live peacefully.

Eph. 5:3 Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person—which means being an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partakers with them; 8 for YOU were once darkness, but YOU are now light in connection with [the] Lord. Go on walking as children of light, 9 for the fruitage of the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and truth. 10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], 12 for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate.

 

[Ghada]

@Ghada, do you believe we can become perfectly sinless in the flesh?

If we believe the Bible we do.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

If we don't believe all the words of the Bible, then we don't believe we can blamelessly walk as Jesus walked with a perfect heart toward God. And if we don't believe with the heart in doing His righteousness, then of course it is impossible to.

And that is the unbelief of sinners, not the justifying faith of Jesus in the Bible in Romans 10.

Or is it a fight between our will, and his will which the flesh and the spirit fight each other?

The only time of fighting between our will and God's will is if we are being double hearted in the faith. We have not yet repented of sinning and become single hearted with a perfect heart toward Christ.

The fight is not between our spirit and our flesh, but between our spirit and the spirit of this world. Our flesh is but flesh and blood, and like all natural born creatures on earth, our bodies known nothing and do nothing of their own will.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The battle of trying not to sin with the flesh, while still having lust in the heart, is an already lost battle.

The battle is we must fight is with our spirit working with God's Spirit, not to receive the lust of the devil back into our hearts.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

ONce Christ cleanses us from all lust and desire for sinning, then we must fight to do the first works of keeping our hearts that way.

If we're still lusting for the flesh, then yes, we will sin with the flesh sooner or later. And in the meantime, we're already judged by God as committing sin with the world by lusting with the heart.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Only the double of heart ask themselves whether it is possible to walk as He walked. The single of heart know we must in order to inherit the reward of resurrection unto life, and so we purpose daily to do so by His grace through faith with works of righteousness which we now do with Jesus.

Those who preach continued sinning, are simply acknowledging they are not single and purified of heart and soul with Christ. They still lust for the world in their hearts, and so naturally fulfill it with the flesh from time to time.

The faith alone without works gospel is just self-justifying cover for it. They have no power of God against continued sinning, because they have given upon the race unto life, and don't seek to be justified by their works with God. The settle back with a justification by faith without works by doctrine alone.

 

[marks]

I.e. the verses are given as demanded, and then disbelieved and set aside.

The simple reality is this. If we trust in Jesus, God justifies us, and gives us new birth. If we are reborn, with true faith, we will be different, and we will live differently. If we are not reborn, we do not have true faith, and we do not live differently. If we are not reborn, we have not been changed. And no amount of good works will produce spiritual life in you if you are not born again. No amount of good works will "increase" your justification given to you in Christ.

Godly works will show your internal change to those around you. God sees your heart. Supposing that your works can add to Jesus' finished work is vile in my view. Our "righteousnesses", of our selves, are as bloody rags to God. Jesus' righteousness given to us is what God counts.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So long as present and future sinning is included, then this teaches that the judgement of all sinning was taken away, and God no more judges us by our works. That's how some Christians claim never to be condemned, no matter what works they are now doing.

Just accept the plain sayings of the Scriptures. If you present your intellectual objections, and then go with that, you've overturned God's Word. That will never end well!

Look! The Lamb of God, Who carries away the sins of the world!

And, if you actually ARE a Christian, those who are, are not condemned. Jesus took care of that.

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

Well as their hundreds of allegorists out there preaching dozens of different interpretations via symbology, like you do, I prefer to go with what is actually being said instead of what it might or may or could or possibly mean.

And you should stop with the arrogant accusations, you are not jesus.

You're the one demanding the quotes. Having no answer to them is not my fault.

Now you sound very Romanish. which contradicts Scripture:

Never been to Rome.

The teaching that the blood of Jesus only covers sin, like that of a bull or goat, is an attack of another gospel against Jesus' blood washing our sins away with purely cleansed consciences.

In the OT, they still had knowledge of sin, that were only covered by blood of bulls. In the NT gospel of the Bible, we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, so that we have no knowledge of any past sinning

Hebrews 10:12


So are you preaching sinless perfection or one is lost?

In the Bible, at the time of doing righteous, it is because we have a perfect heart with Christ. At the time of doing unrighteousness, we are children of the devil.

What the Bible teaches against is being double hearted in the faith, to be doing good some of the time, and also doing evil at other times. That must be repented of for singleness of heart to be doing God's righteousness at all times.

This is not possible for many teachers of the doctrine of faith alone without works. Most also teach continued double minded sinning for life. Most also teach it is not possible to walk as Jesus walked at all times daily.

Christians are of course given liberty by God for a season to believe, teach, and practice such unbelief in all the words of the Bible. I just continue to show those words of the Bible that disagree with it, whenever anyone tries to convince me of it.

Onjce again using the Hebrews verse shows you are ill informed as to its intent and meaning.

So long as you trust in your own faith alone without works to save and justify yourself, we will always say the same about one another.

We've been doing it already for quite a while. Your argument about James 2 teaching justification by works with men, and not with God, is false. You've had no response to it.

You will continue to read all verses through your prism of faith without works, and I will continue reading all verses through James' teaching of being justified with God by works, even as Abraham and Rahab were.

 

[Rapture Bound]

The simple reality is this. If we trust in Jesus, God justifies us, and gives us new birth. If we are reborn, with true faith, we will be different, and we will live differently. If we are not reborn, we do not have true faith, and we do not live differently. If we are not reborn, we have not been changed. And no amount of good works will produce spiritual life in you if you are not born again. No amount of good works will "increase" your justification given to you in Christ.

Godly works will show your internal change to those around you. God sees your heart. Supposing that your works can add to Jesus' finished work is vile in my view. Our "righteousnesses", of our selves, are as bloody rags to God. Jesus' righteousness given to us is what God counts.

Much love!

Well put Marks! It's just so hard for me to wrap my head around the strawman arguments that those who reject your statement here set up. The number one strawman argument being that any person who believes in Christ's imputed righteousness for their justified standing before God does so in order to 'justify' living and revelling in their ungodly lifestyles.

Why is it so hard for them to understand that all who possess that mindset have obviously never been born again [i.e. regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given a new heart that thirsts after righteousness]? It appears to me as well that it's due to their failure to understand the efficacy of Christ's finished work for all those who have solely placed their faith and hope in His blood.

 

[marks]

It appears to me as well that it's due to their failure to understand the efficacy of Christ's finished work for all those who have solely placed their faith and hope in His blood.

I think that's a big part of it.

I think of,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

It seems the concern is our holy living, is it not? Is that why some insist on obeying the commandments given Israel? Seeking to live according to the letter, not trusting the Spirit to lead us in the right way?

And yet this passage is telling us, we who are born again, that "when we see Him, we will be like Him." And then tells us that having this assurance, we purify ourselves, just like Jesus is pure.

Knowing that this work will be completed - He Who began a good work in you - causes us to experience that purity more in our lives now. Isn't that what we want? This is one way that it comes to us, by trusting in the finished work of Christ.

Much love!

 

[dad]

The Bible teaches us that our works judge us, not our faith. We aren't judged by what we believe, but by what we do.

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

That was about a wicked nation that had rejected God. The work they needed was to repent.believe. Otherwise we are accountable for our sins.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

And evil is to reject the gift of Jesus. That is not about some less than perfect folks that already came to the light!

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Jesus rewards us according to woks, not saves us according to them.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

It is great to be judged by Jesus, better than gold. We are a work in progress.

In the Bible good works have always been necessary to be judged righteous with God. That includes all NT believers, because God is not a respecter of persons when righteously judging any man's work.

The Bible never says we are judged by our faith alone, and not by our works. We are justified by works, because our deeds judge our faith, whether it is of God or not.

Good works is not just a show of faith, but are the necessary means of being just and righteous with God. Christ comes to make our works truly good, because they are not from a pure heart of faith. He does not come to bypass works and judge us by our faith alone.

Not a necessary means to salvation though. Rewards depend on works, not salvation. Even if someone's works get totally burned up they are still saved.

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

He disciplines us in love like a parent.

We see here how we are not only justified by our works, but we are also resurrected unto life by our works being judged as good with God.

No. Verse?

Faith without works is so useless, because without the good works we do by faith, we do not receive the reward of inheriting the kingdom of God forever.

Useless is right. How would someone that is saved be useful if they hide their light under a bushel? Nevertheless His word and promise is true. His gift is without repentance.

Faith is not the end goal. Good works are the goal of faith, because the reward of inheritance is by good works, not by faith alone.

Verse? What end goal?

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Bible says being charitable in life is greater than faith. Faith and hope are important, and faith is the gift of God, so that we can please Him by doing good. Doing good and not evil is how we are judged by God to be worthy to walk with Him in white forever.

The fact that love is greater than faith and hope does not mean that 'doing good' saves us or keeps us saved!

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

How does one defile their garments in the context of that verse?The context is false religion and people that claim a name of believer but do not actually believe. In no possible way does that mean that people who DO believe and are saved got there or will stay there by works!

 

[MatthewG]

Wonderful, @Ghada,

Love to you, and may the spirit guide.