We are Living in the End of the End Days!! Wake up!!!

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Keraz

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Kindly study Revelation 19 and all related passages.
Revelation 19:14 says Jesus will Return, followed by the armies of heaven. People never go to heaven, every person will see Him come back, in the clouds, like He departed.
Actually, the only way to make sense of scripture and have everything harmonise is for Jesus to come to the earth twice
This is a speculation that isn't Biblical and will not happen.
There are prophesies that say the Lord will come in fire, but He will not be seen on His terrible Day of wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Hab 3:4
 
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brakelite

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Revelation 19:14 says Jesus will Return, followed by the armies of heaven. People never go to heaven, every person will see Him come back, in the clouds, like He departed.

This is a speculation that isn't Biblical and will not happen.
There are prophesies that say the Lord will come in fire, but He will not be seen on His terrible Day of wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Hab 3:4
I misphrased that. Jesus comes to the earth the next time, but doesn't touch it. The angels collect God's elect from the four corners of the earth, both alive and dead, and we are taken to heaven.
KJV 1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is nothing in scripture anywhere stating we are taken to Jerusalem. At the second coming. But you are welcome to stay behind and help clean up the mess.
 
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07-07-07

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Believing the Church will be 'raptured' to heaven, is to believe a lie, as that idea is never stated in the Bible.

You're denying the Scriptures. The Rapture is very much real; the timing is the mystery.
 
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Keraz

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I misphrased that. Jesus comes to the earth the next time, but doesn't touch it. The angels collect God's elect from the four corners of the earth, both alive and dead, and we are taken to heaven.
KJV 1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is nothing in scripture anywhere stating we are taken to Jerusalem. At the second coming. But you are welcome to stay behind and help clean up the mess.
Your 1 Thess 4:17 quote refers to the Return. The glorious Day when Jesus comes back to destroy the armies of the AC and chain him - Satan up.
There is plenty of prophesies that say the Lord's people, every faithful Christian person, will live in the holy Land. We will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10, Zechariah 10:8-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 60:1-9, Romans 9:24-26

As for your last comment; this is the kind of pretentious nonsense I have come to expect from those who have fallen for the false teachings of the 'rapture to heaven'. Something that Jesus specifically said could not happen. John 3:13, +
 
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brakelite

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Your 1 Thess 4:17 quote refers to the Return. The glorious Day when Jesus comes back to destroy the armies of the AC and chain him - Satan up.
There is plenty of prophesies that say the Lord's people, every faithful Christian person, will live in the holy Land. We will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10, Zechariah 10:8-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 60:1-9, Romans 9:24-26

As for your last comment; this is the kind of pretentious nonsense I have come to expect from those who have fallen for the false teachings of the 'rapture to heaven'. Something that Jesus specifically said could not happen. John 3:13, +
I do not believe in any "rapture" in the common acceptance on the term. I believe in the resurrection...I believe in the living being glorified... Both events taking place at the second coming.
Yes, I also agree with you that the Saints will eventually inherit the earth. From the new Jerusalem. Which when it descends, will settle where the old Jerusalem stood. But then there's a new heaven, and a new earth. Who knows what that will look like?
Where I disagree with you is the when. It is clear from scripture that the new Jerusalem descends at the end of the 1000 years. What is NOT clear at least to me, is the belief that God's people will be on earth throughout that period. I know many scriptures are presented to support that concept, but they only apply to the millennium because people want them to. They're is no definitive textual teaching specifically addressing any idea that God people will be on this planet during the 1000 years. Ruling and reigning with Christ, yes. But where?
 

Keraz

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Ruling and reigning with Christ, yes. But where?
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the [holy] Land and will live there forever.
Isaiah 65:9b...My chosen ones will take possession of the [holy] Land, those who serve Me will live there.
Isaiah 57:13....those who trust Me will possess the Land....

There is plenty more prophesies about the purpose and the destiny of all of God's faithful Christian people.
I see Isaiah 11:1-10, as referring to the Millennium.
 

Jay Ross

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Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the [holy] Land and will live there forever.
Isaiah 65:9b...My chosen ones will take possession of the [holy] Land, those who serve Me will live there.
Isaiah 57:13....those who trust Me will possess the Land....

There is plenty more prophesies about the purpose and the destiny of all of God's faithful Christian people.
I see Isaiah 11:1-10, as referring to the Millennium.

Psalms. 37:29 speaks of the righteous inheriting the whole EARTH.
Isaiah. 65:9b speaks of God's heir out of Judah inheriting His Father's mountain.
Isaiah. 57:13 speaks of the idols of the people not being able to help them in their needs, but those who trust in the Lord will inherit the whole EARTH and His Mountain.

Yes Keraz, where you see people inheriting a "relatively small piece of land" God's prophetic pronouncement speak of inheriting the whole earth, which is of itself a very big difference.

As for Isaiah. 11:1-10 referring to the Millennium, well it does refer to the beginning of the Millennium Age but to stretch that passage out so that it covers the whole of the Millennium, i.e. the one thousand year period, is a bit of a stretch that is difficult to comprehend how you cam to this conclusion.

Shalom
 

Keraz

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Yes Keraz, where you see people inheriting a "relatively small piece of land" God's prophetic pronouncement speak of inheriting the whole earth, which is of itself a very big difference.
Actually the holy Land is a very big area; all that land from the Nile to the Euphrates. God gave it to the Patriarchs and their descendants will inherit it. The ancient Israelites never did occupy all of it, Judges 1:19-31, but the faithful children of Abraham, Galatians 3:26-29, who are now every faithful Christian, will do so in the near future. John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.
 

Jay Ross

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Actually the holy Land is a very big area; all that land from the Nile to the Euphrates. God gave it to the Patriarchs and their descendants will inherit it. The ancient Israelites never did occupy all of it, Judges 1:19-31, but the faithful children of Abraham, Galatians 3:26-29, who are now every faithful Christian, will do so in the near future. John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.

You are right but in comparison to inheriting the whole earth, it is puny portion of the whole existing land mass of the whole earth.

In Matt.5:5 Jesus tells us that the Meek will inherit the whole earth. Why would a person who believes the truth of Matt.5:5 be interested in only focusing on the "Promised Land" as you are doing when the whole earth is his inheritance?

How does Matt 5;5 fit into your understanding?

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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Simple; they will inherit the whole earth after the Millennium. As per Revelation 21 to 22.

What about because of Genesis__12:1 etc.? Is it not also speaking of the same inheritance?
 

Keraz

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What about because of Genesis__12:1 etc.? Is it not also speaking of the same inheritance?
Yes, it is that area described in Genesis 15:18.
I reiterate: neither Joshua, David, or Solomon ever had full and sole ownership and occupancy of that area. They may have controlled it, but other peoples lived there alongside the Israelites. That is one reason for what caused them to apostatize.

A very interesting passage in the Bible is:
Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.

Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.

The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.

Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes. Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5

‘a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.
'descendants of Abraham' - as Galatians 3:26-29 and many other scriptures tell us; it is the faithful Christian people who are the real children of God.
'Israel and Judah'- After 100 + generations, every person on earth today has some of the genes of the Patriarchs.
 

Jay Ross

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Yes, it is that area described in Genesis 15:18.
I reiterate: neither Joshua, David, or Solomon ever had full and sole ownership and occupancy of that area. They may have controlled it, but other peoples lived there alongside the Israelites. That is one reason for what caused them to apostatize.

A very interesting passage in the Bible is:
Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.

Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.

The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.

Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes. Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5

‘a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.
'descendants of Abraham' - as Galatians 3:26-29 and many other scriptures tell us; it is the faithful Christian people who are the real children of God.
'Israel and Judah'- After 100 + generations, every person on earth today has some of the genes of the Patriarchs.

God Promised Abraham the whole earth as his future inheritance and not the Land of Canaan as you are pushing as our inheritance at this present time. In Genesis__12:1 the Hebrew word,
הָאָ֖רֶץ​
is the
same Hebrew word found in Genesis__1:1 הָאָֽרֶץ where it is translated into English as "earth" whereas the same Hebrew word is translated into English as "land" in Genesis 12:1.

The same Hebrew word is found in Genesis__15:7 הָאָ֥רֶץ and Abraham in the next verse asked God the question, "How will I know that I will inherit it?"

God responded by asking Abraham to prepare the elements for the ceremony of entering into a Solemn Covenant as a sign so that when Abraham's descendants around 490 years later entered into the promised solemn covenantal land for a defined period of time of around 1500 years that they could be assured that at some time in the future they would also inherit the whole earth. Keraz, you are focused on a possession of land, whereas God was focusing on the righteousness that Abraham's descendants could achieve by being in a right relationship with God. God's gathering of Israel to Himself is by planting the descendants of Abraham into fertile fields where they have been scattered too so that they can draw nourishment from God's teaching about His Kingdom.

Jeremiah brought a fertile field from his uncle in which seed could be planted and a harvest gathered from. It seems that you are missing a lot of symbology contain in God's prophetic prophecies concerning God's Salvation for all of the people of the earth should they chose to enter into it.

The understanding you are expressing is very much a Hellenistic understanding of the End Times and we know from Jesus' parable of the Judgement of the nations that the Goats that call Jesus Lord, Lord, never enter in, to receive their inheritance of all the earth, instead they end up in the Lake of Fire.

This is why I am suggesting that your theological understanding of the End Times is flawed.

Shalom
 

Keraz

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This is why I am suggesting that your theological understanding of the End Times is flawed.
My understanding of what God has planned for His people in the end times, is solidly grounded on the Prophetic Word.
It will be only the faithful, righteous people who will live in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

God did tell Abraham the area of the Promised Land. Genesis 15:18 Only after the Millennium, will those whose names are in the Book of Life, inherit the whole new Earth.

Again on this forum, I get personally attacked, rather than proper Biblical rebuttal.
It is plain to me and many others; that people who resort to making nasty insinuations, are those who have beliefs with very flimsy, or non existent Biblical support.
 
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Jay Ross

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My understanding of what God has planned for His people in the end times, is solidly grounded on the Prophetic Word.
It will be only the faithful, righteous people who will live in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

God did tell Abraham the area of the Promised Land. Genesis 15:18 Only after the Millennium, will those whose names are in the Book of Life, inherit the whole new Earth.

Again on this forum, I get personally attacked, rather than proper Biblical rebuttal.
It is plain to me and many others; that people who resort to making nasty insinuations, are those who have beliefs with very flimsy, or non existent Biblical support.

I am so sorry for you that you are feeling like you are being personally attacked. It is the lot of the true prophets to be attacked by others but the attack from the Lord for attempting to be a prophet when not His prophet is far more devastating when the message given is not a message from God to you to give. Read the Book of Jeremiah and see what happened to the "prophets" who were not God's prophets speaking His message to the nation/people of God.

You state that you know the answer that God gave to Abraham in Genesis_15:17-21 but it is my view that you do not understand the question that the answer was being given for. Many people know the answers given in the Bible but they do not understand the questions that the answers are answering and so they do not understand the context of what they are reading. If you do not know the question as well as the answer given in the scriptures, then you are not a teacher or a prophet from God.

Now you acknowledge that the righteous after the GWTR judgement will inherit the whole refurbished earth, but you have also denied that God in Genesis_12:1 also promised to take Abraham to a refurbished righteous earth and in Genesis_12:7 to also give Abraham's descendants the refurbished righteous earth as well, which has been qualified by God in that it is on the condition that they sustain to God's teaching on the way in which they will live their life while waiting for the day of the Lord when the inheritance will be given out.

Now with respect to your statement regarding providing proper Biblical rebuttals, to your posts. It seems to me that you are not interested in any rebuttals because sadly, I have provided you with proper Biblical rebuttals but you have so far chosen to ignore those biblical rebuttals and continue with your false message posts. You are not alone on this forum in doing this, because their are others who believe that they know the question being answered through God's prophetic words when they too as you have pointed out to them, are coming from left field.

Now your opening statement in your rebuttal is based on your belief that your understanding is solidly grounded on God's Prophetic word. Now, I question that, but it does require a very open mind on your part to process the Biblical message such that the questions asked within the recorded Word of God and the answers also give there in are understood in their right context. The misunderstanding of just one word in the Biblical record can take people so far left field that they have walked away from God altogether. That is what you were inferring in you last sentence of your post.

That is the claim of all the people who live out in left field. They are not prepared to spend all of their assets to gain the treasure that is found in God.

Shalom.
 

Davy

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Read scripture=== Jesus is physically in heaven today!===
1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so ""shall we ever be with the Lord. ""

1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus is physically in heaven today and He will catch up believers to be there with Him until He returns to earth with us to set up His kingdom here!

YOU... need to read the Scripture you're referring to. It says Jesus 'descends' from Heaven... bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes.


1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

KJV


You cannot claim Jesus will be in Heaven at that point. The gathering to Him of those still alive on earth is in the clouds as He descends, from Heaven, down to this earth.

(I'm sorry brethren, but I hope you see how you can sorely be in trouble if you listen to 1st graders in God's Word that believe Christ is going to rapture His Church into Heaven when the Scripture clearly says He descends from Heaven.)
 
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Taken

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Revelation 19:14 says Jesus will Return, followed by the armies of heaven. People never go to heaven, every person will see Him come back, in the clouds, like He departed.

This is a speculation that isn't Biblical and will not happen.
There are prophesies that say the Lord will come in fire, but He will not be seen on His terrible Day of wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Hab 3:4

Christ Jesus' CHURCH is CALLED UP and RISEN UP to Christ Jesus IN THE CLOUDS...
They are RISEN UP In a GLORIFIED BODY, and thus shall SEE thee Lord AS HE IS, IN His Glorious Body.

It is LATER MEN Remaining ON EARTH, who shall SEE....the SON of MAN, coming to Earth.

Remember....AS the SON OF MAN....JESUS CAN BE SEEN BY MEN...
AS the SON OF GOD...ONLY the EYES IN a Glorified BODY, can SEE the Lord "AS HE IS."

It is LATER thee Lord God, exhibits HIS Appearence AS A FLAMING BALL OF FIRE, to BURN and DESTROY the Corruption of the EARTH.

You should be aware ... the Earths First Destruction was BY WATER....which WASHES.

The Second Earths Destruction IS BY FIRE ...which PURIFIES.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Your 1 Thess 4:17 quote refers to the Return.

No it does not Refer to RETURN...OR SAY SO.

It clearly says DESCENDS TO THE CLOUDS.

Are you unaware the CLOUDS and the EARTH are two very different things?

The glorious Day when Jesus comes back to destroy the armies of the AC and chain him - Satan up.

You SKIP a great deal that occurs BETWEEN The Church WHO ARE THOSE "MADE" WHOLE, and those Becoming "MADE" WHOLE during the Great Tribulation, BEFORE Christ's RETURN TO "EARTH".

There is plenty of prophesies that say the Lord's people, every faithful Christian person, will live in the holy Land. We will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10, Zechariah 10:8-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 60:1-9, Romans 9:24-26

The FACT IS: The Saved and Quickened will OCCUPY their INHERITANCE, WHICH IS the "PROMISED" LAND and ALSO the Lord's Kingdom.

There is MUCH you SKIP that occurs BETWEEN the Church being Resurrected AND the Lords Return to Earth, and men Occupying their Promised Land.

As for your last comment; this is the kind of pretentious nonsense I have come to expect from those who have fallen for the false teachings of the 'rapture to heaven'. Something that Jesus specifically said could not happen. John 3:13, +

First of ALL....
"YOU" MAKE A FALSE CLAIM.
THEN "YOU" say it is An Others Belief.
THEN "YOU" disagree with "YOUR OWN' FALSE CLAIM.

QUOTE ONE PERSON (other than yourself) making the CLAIM, that "men are raptured to heaven"....

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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YOU... need to read the Scripture you're referring to. It says Jesus 'descends' from Heaven... bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes.


1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

KJV


You cannot claim Jesus will be in Heaven at that point. The gathering to Him of those still alive on earth is in the clouds as He descends, from Heaven, down to this earth.

(I'm sorry brethren, but I hope you see how you can sorely be in trouble if you listen to 1st graders in God's Word that believe Christ is going to rapture His Church into Heaven when the Scripture clearly says He descends from Heaven.)

You should pay closer ATTENTION to the TITLES Jesus is CALLED, and WHAT He is DOING, WHEN referenced BY Particular TITLES.

God IS EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES.

WHEN He TEACHES WHERE HE IS AT A PARTICULAR TIME, and BY WHAT TITLE He is CALLED at that Particular time...
IT DOES NOT MEAN...HE IS NOT "ALSO" elsewhere!

The CHURCH, is Christ Jesus' Church.
The CHURCH "MEMBERS" are those "CONVERTED" "IN CHRIST".

Christ resurrects HIS CHURCH "UP" TO HIM, In the Clouds.

And WHILE Christ Jesus IS IN THE CLOUDS WITH HIS Church...WHO BY THE WAY...CAN SEE HIM, AS He IS...A SPIRIT...

The LAMB of God, Shall also be WITH 144,000 of the TRIBES of ISRAEL in the Hills.

The SON of "MAN", will Also be SEEN BY Earthly MEN, ON EARTH, WHEN Jesus Returns to Earth....AS THE SON OF MAN.

EVERY TITLE of thee Lord God is Significant IN Understanding, WHAT He is DOING at Particular times...even when those particular TIMES...coincide. God IS EVERYWHERE...

Your Statements and misunderstanding...do not have the Power to Limit thee Lord God, or where He is, What He is Called, and What He is Doing.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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We are Living in the End of the End Days!! Wake up!!!

It appears MANY are enjoying their SLUMBER!

Glory to God,
Taken