We Are Not Appointed to "ETERNAL" Wrath

[Timtofly]

Fact, the Aod is not in Dan. 9:27,

How many future AoD's are there?

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

[Timtofly]

No Jesus is not the 70th week. The 70th week never began. Christ's crucifixion ended the 69th week. Prophetically, the 3 1/2 yrs. of his ministry isn't mentioned. Jesus "came" according to prophecy at the 'end" of his ministry when the prophecy of Zech. 9:9 was fulfilled. No Jesus never said it was the time of Jacob's trouble. Yes, the description of the GT is similar but it is about two different peoples at two different times in history. If it was the same Jesus would have referenced Jeremiah just as he referenced either Dan. 11:31 or 12:11 regarding the AoD. Imo, TtoJT began in 70ad and is still going on and that fits the description of it to a T. The GT is upon the church and will be the largest time of persecution and martyrdom the church has ever seen on a global scale. The 7th trump is not the last trump spoken of by Paul. The last trump is referring to the feast of trumpets and God himself will sound it, not an angel, Zech. 9:14. The problem you're having is figuring out how the 70th week can be divided into two equal halves, but scripture never says it is. The "midst" from Dan. 9:27 can mean the middle but it can also mean anytime between day 2 and day 1259. Here's a clue I figured out fairly recently. The "midst", the 1290 days from Dan. 12:11 and the 2300 days from Dan. 8 "all" begin on the same day. Also, for Israel to fulfill the goals given in Dan. 9:24, all timelines must end before day 2520. Trying to cram all the events into two equal halves just doesn't work and neither does extending it post 70th week.

Fact, the 7th Trumpet is Daniel 9:27. The 7th Trumpet is a set of 7 days.

Fact, Daniel 9:27 is found in Revelation 10:7.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."


Yes, there is no midst of the 70th week found anywhere in Scripture. The fulness of the Gentiles is the gap in the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah. At the Second Coming 3.5 years as King. But those 3.5 years keep getting shorter so more souls are redeemed into the church. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles and subsequently the church.

You along with most try to put the timing of Daniel into the future. John never saw the timing of Daniel. John saw what may happen, not what will happen. John was not a prophet. John was a witness to a set of events that happened for John as he was writing them down as a witness.

One can ask can history repeat itself, especially for John. No, John will not have to repeat it. But if history does not repeat itself, then only John would have lived what he wrote down. How it actually happens may be totally different than the actual visions given.

Look how well the first century Pharisees got their prophets all figured out from OT Scripture? Did it all work out exactly how they thought Scripture spelled it out?

 

[Trekson]

How many future AoD's are there?

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Use of the two words does not equal 'The Abomination of Desolation". Seeing as Jesus is the word I believe He knows his word and wouldn't quote a generality for a specific thing. The quote stems from either Dan. 11:31 or 12:11. The AoD is a specific thing and it's fulfillment can be found in Rev. 13:14-15.

 

[Trekson]

Fact, the 7th Trumpet is Daniel 9:27. The 7th Trumpet is a set of 7 days.

Fact, Daniel 9:27 is found in Revelation 10:7.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."


Yes, there is no midst of the 70th week found anywhere in Scripture. The fulness of the Gentiles is the gap in the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah. At the Second Coming 3.5 years as King. But those 3.5 years keep getting shorter so more souls are redeemed into the church. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles and subsequently the church.

You along with most try to put the timing of Daniel into the future. John never saw the timing of Daniel. John saw what may happen, not what will happen. John was not a prophet. John was a witness to a set of events that happened for John as he was writing them down as a witness.

One can ask can history repeat itself, especially for John. No, John will not have to repeat it. But if history does not repeat itself, then only John would have lived what he wrote down. How it actually happens may be totally different than the actual visions given.

Look how well the first century Pharisees got their prophets all figured out from OT Scripture? Did it all work out exactly how they thought Scripture spelled it out?

The 7th trump has no more prophetic meaning than any of the other trumpet judgments other than being the last part of the wrath of the Lamb and introducing the third woe. There is still the vial judgments of God's wrath and Armageddon yet to go. Dan. 9:24-27 isn't about Christ, it's about the nation of Israel. The narrative of Christ ends when he is "cut off". The 6th seal gives us the signs that the day of the Lord is about to begin. The seals aren't the judgements of anyone they are simply a prophecy of events leading up to the DoL. Your take on John couldn't be farther from the truth. While John may not have been a prophet, Jesus is and he instructed the angel to tell John about "things that must be hereafter" Future) Rev. 4:1. This is Christ's prophecy, not John's. Seeing as Rev. was written about 95ad, John did see the middle of Dan. 9:26 fulfilled which occurred in 70ad. John was NOT a reporter talking about current events...lol. I believe Jesus knows what he was talking about in His Revelation about things to come thousands of yrs. in the future. John wrote down what he was told and what he saw and described things as best as he could w/ many of them being outside his scope of understanding because they were of future things a first century man would be totally clueless about. You're right that that Israel got the timing wrong but most of the prophesies didn't prophesy about a "second" advent, so there is that. There is "no gap" in the 70th week because the gap leads to the start and completion of the full seven yrs. Messiah fulfilled no part of the 70th week, yet.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 7th trump has no more prophetic meaning than any of the other trumpet judgments other than being the last part of the wrath of the Lamb and introducing the third woe.

Your claim is a man made fairy tale as Pinocchio's nose grows, the 7th Trump will see the final judgment (The End) will you continue to teach this error?

Revelation 11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Use of the two words does not equal 'The Abomination of Desolation". Seeing as Jesus is the word I believe He knows his word and wouldn't quote a generality for a specific thing. The quote stems from either Dan. 11:31 or 12:11. The AoD is a specific thing and it's fulfillment can be found in Rev. 13:14-15.

Jesus as Prince confirms the Atonement Covenant. Then Satan is allowed to set up the AoD in the middle of the 7th Trumpet celebration. The last 3.5 days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. Those 3.5 days instead of being days of celebration are when the 7 vials are poured out.

Daniel 9:27 is not a 42 month gap between 2, 3.5 year periods. Daniel 9:27 is a 42 month gap between 2, 3.5 day periods. The 42 months in Revelation 13 is the AoD. The image and mark is part of this time of abomination. Those having the mark are the desolate.

Many want to call Daniel 9:27 the 70th week. It is not about a 7 year period. Daniel 9:27 is the set of 7 days, known as the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The cut off of Messiah back in Daniel 9:26 defines the 2 halves of the 70th week. If Christ was made King after the resurrection, we would not have had 1992 years of the fullness of the Gentiles. The 70 weeks would have been fulfilled, and Jesus would reign as King for 1,000 years, and then hand back creation to God.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself (for the fulness of the Gentiles) : and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

40 years after Jesus left earth, His people allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed. But 70 AD was not the flood. This flood is Revelation 12:15-16

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Many claim some spiritual reasoning going on here. That the flood is spiritual, not physical. Either way, neither Daniel 26, at the end, nor verse 27 have happened yet. Jesus has yet to end the 70 weeks as King on a throne in Jerusalem.

The 7th Trumpet is most definitely part of Daniel 9:27 because Revelation 10 points directly to the 7th Trumpet as being the end of time for the mystery of all OT prophecies.

Some claim the AoD was the sacrifices in the Temple after the Cross. If that were true, why did Jesus hang out in Jerusalem for 40 days? He and all the disciples should have fled Israel and never come back, ever. That is not the case, as there was a church in Jerusalem until Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies in 66AD.

Neither can the 70th week be in the future. John never states there is a 7 year period. Messiah was cut off after the 69th week. In fact, Jesus was born decades after the 69th week. The 69th week was over between 60BC or 50BC. The Cross was not the last day of the 69th week, nor the day after. Only 2 Israelites even remembered the OT prophecies. All had given up hope, or rejected the writings of Daniel outright.

The 3 wise man caused Herod to be dumb founded and caught off guard. He was so afraid he had hundreds of toddlers and newborns killed in and around Bethlehem. Only Simeon and Anna were the last two who held out hope for a Messiah.

BTW: Jesus used the term AoD, not me.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) "

They already had the historical fulfillment in 167BC. Why would any one 200 years later see that happen? Who knows if Daniel 11 has happened or yet to happen? Is Daniel 11 just a repeat of Daniel 8? Is Daniel 11 the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the 16th century? All of Daniel's visions happened prior to people returning to Jerusalem after captivity. If Daniel is taken in chronological order, then chapter 11 may not happen until after the Second Coming. Or it already happened 1400 years ago. But Jesus points out the same generation will see the birth of Israel as a nation, the Second Coming, the time of Jacob's trouble, and the AoD. Definitely Daniel 9:27 is yet to happen. Daniel 11, who knows? Daniel 11 was either Daniel 8 in more detail, or the yet to happen, Daniel 9:27.

 

[Timtofly]

There is still the vial judgments of God's wrath and Armageddon yet to go. Dan. 9:24-27 isn't about Christ, it's about the nation of Israel.

Then why do so many apply this to the church?

I know it is about Israel. It is not about a future AC either. The Second Coming happens before Jacob's trouble. Jacob's trouble is what most call the GT. This is when Jesus is on earth as King sitting on a throne in the "third" Temple in Jerusalem. Who will deny the point that God is working in the hearts of Israel preparing a third temple? The church is not part of this at all. The church will not be on earth at all for this event.

Of course Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus as King, not about Jesus as Christ. Christ is another way to say Messiah. King is another way to say Prince. The 70th week is Jesus both as Messiah and Prince or Christ and King.

Revelation was written to 7 churches, and Christ is referring to Jesus. But the King part is a relationship with Israel, not the church. Being specific with terms is a moot point. We are still talking about Jesus the Word of God.

 

[RLT63]

We Are Not Appointed to “ETERNAL” Wrath​

When one understands there is no 7 yr. “trib period” prophesied, there is only the 70th week and the last half of the week is "not" called the GT in scripture, they will start to get closer to understanding what the 70th week consists of. Many try to say that this period is the time of Jacob’s trouble but that isn’t affirmed in Rev. although the description given is similar to how the GT is described, they are not the same. They are depicting two different peoples in two different time periods. Those scenarios are all made up as an excuse to somehow remove christians from something that scripture tells us we must endure. In Rev. 7:9, we see the raptured/resurrected church arriving in heaven and vs. 14 tells us the GT is the last thing we will be enduring before we go. However, the timing of this does put us in the era of at least the wrath of the Lamb, from Rev. 6:16-17 which are the trumpet judgments. The bible tells us over and over that we will have times of tribulation and persecution but folks want to shake that off and say that’s only talking about our day to day problems. In a way they’re right, but what were the day to day problems of the early church? Beatings, tortures, getting kicked out of cities, running for their lives, being put in prison, being thrown to the lions, roasted in oil, being fried, losing all their possessions, etc. It wasn’t just the apostles that had to endure all these things.

As far as I can tell, the concept that the church doesn't suffer from his wrath comes from only half of a single verse, 1 Thess. 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Many erroneous eschatologies have been built around this phrase and never taking in the context of which it is given, even in the verse itself. Unlike most, I don't believe it is speaking of God's endtimes wrath because of the context.

The wrath being spoken of here is eternal "condemnation", not end times wrath. The same God who tells us in Matt. 28:10 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." and from Matt. 5:45 - "that ye may be the children of your Father who is in Heaven. For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust", isn’t concerned about how we die, death is a given except those who will be raptured. 1 Thess. 5:9 is speaking of the same wrath as found in John 3:36 - "He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but "the wrath of God" abideth on him.” So we are not appointed to “eternal” wrath because we have "believed in Christ". When you're a christian it doesn't matter how you die whether it be from an earthquake, a tsunami, car accident, meteor strikes, being tortured and martyred for our faith, radiation or old age. If we die because of events caused by the wrath of the Lamb or the wrath of God, why would it matter, our destination is the same? What "saves" us from God's "eternal" wrath is also found in 1 Thess. 5:8 - "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation." It is because we are wearing the armor of God that we are not "appointed" to wrath. When folks understand this reality, they can look at the 70th week from a more realistic pov, instead of creating a separate set of christians (trib saints) the bible never talks about.

I’ve come to the conclusion that no one really knows about the last seven years, Jacob’s trouble, the timing of the rapture, Amillennialism vs Pre Trib Millennialism. so I’ll just believe what makes the most sense which is the Futurist view

 

[Trekson]

Your claim is a man made fairy tale as Pinocchio's nose grows, the 7th Trump will see the final judgment (The End) will you continue to teach this error?

Revelation 11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

are you familiar w/ speaking forward in faith. That's what this is "calling those things which be not as though they were. The end of this era will be shortly after this but God has to wrap up a few things first before the millennium can begin.

 

[Trekson]

Jesus as Prince confirms the Atonement Covenant. Then Satan is allowed to set up the AoD in the middle of the 7th Trumpet celebration. The last 3.5 days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. Those 3.5 days instead of being days of celebration are when the 7 vials are poured out.

Daniel 9:27 is not a 42 month gap between 2, 3.5 year periods. Daniel 9:27 is a 42 month gap between 2, 3.5 day periods. The 42 months in Revelation 13 is the AoD. The image and mark is part of this time of abomination. Those having the mark are the desolate.

Many want to call Daniel 9:27 the 70th week. It is not about a 7 year period. Daniel 9:27 is the set of 7 days, known as the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The cut off of Messiah back in Daniel 9:26 defines the 2 halves of the 70th week. If Christ was made King after the resurrection, we would not have had 1992 years of the fullness of the Gentiles. The 70 weeks would have been fulfilled, and Jesus would reign as King for 1,000 years, and then hand back creation to God.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself (for the fulness of the Gentiles) : and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

40 years after Jesus left earth, His people allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed. But 70 AD was not the flood. This flood is Revelation 12:15-16

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Many claim some spiritual reasoning going on here. That the flood is spiritual, not physical. Either way, neither Daniel 26, at the end, nor verse 27 have happened yet. Jesus has yet to end the 70 weeks as King on a throne in Jerusalem.

The 7th Trumpet is most definitely part of Daniel 9:27 because Revelation 10 points directly to the 7th Trumpet as being the end of time for the mystery of all OT prophecies.

Some claim the AoD was the sacrifices in the Temple after the Cross. If that were true, why did Jesus hang out in Jerusalem for 40 days? He and all the disciples should have fled Israel and never come back, ever. That is not the case, as there was a church in Jerusalem until Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies in 66AD.

Neither can the 70th week be in the future. John never states there is a 7 year period. Messiah was cut off after the 69th week. In fact, Jesus was born decades after the 69th week. The 69th week was over between 60BC or 50BC. The Cross was not the last day of the 69th week, nor the day after. Only 2 Israelites even remembered the OT prophecies. All had given up hope, or rejected the writings of Daniel outright.

The 3 wise man caused Herod to be dumb founded and caught off guard. He was so afraid he had hundreds of toddlers and newborns killed in and around Bethlehem. Only Simeon and Anna were the last two who held out hope for a Messiah.

BTW: Jesus used the term AoD, not me.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) "

They already had the historical fulfillment in 167BC. Why would any one 200 years later see that happen? Who knows if Daniel 11 has happened or yet to happen? Is Daniel 11 just a repeat of Daniel 8? Is Daniel 11 the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the 16th century? All of Daniel's visions happened prior to people returning to Jerusalem after captivity. If Daniel is taken in chronological order, then chapter 11 may not happen until after the Second Coming. Or it already happened 1400 years ago. But Jesus points out the same generation will see the birth of Israel as a nation, the Second Coming, the time of Jacob's trouble, and the AoD. Definitely Daniel 9:27 is yet to happen. Daniel 11, who knows? Daniel 11 was either Daniel 8 in more detail, or the yet to happen, Daniel 9:27.

Nope, the covenant in Dan. 9:27 is not a holy covenant, it's simply a temporary peace treaty involving Israel and the a/c that allows them to return to the sacrificial system for a while. Historicism is the eschatology of the impatient and not a bit of truth to it.

 

[Trekson]

Then why do so many apply this to the church?

I know it is about Israel. It is not about a future AC either. The Second Coming happens before Jacob's trouble. Jacob's trouble is what most call the GT. This is when Jesus is on earth as King sitting on a throne in the "third" Temple in Jerusalem. Who will deny the point that God is working in the hearts of Israel preparing a third temple? The church is not part of this at all. The church will not be on earth at all for this event.

Of course Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus as King, not about Jesus as Christ. Christ is another way to say Messiah. King is another way to say Prince. The 70th week is Jesus both as Messiah and Prince or Christ and King.

Revelation was written to 7 churches, and Christ is referring to Jesus. But the King part is a relationship with Israel, not the church. Being specific with terms is a moot point. We are still talking about Jesus the Word of God.

Dan. 9:27 isn't about Jesus at all, it's about the a/c. This is not a holy covenant it's simply a temporary peace treaty of sorts. The narrative about Christ ends him being "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, then we have 70ad and the prince to come is the evil one spoken of in many prophecies and no it hasn't happened yet. The 70th week, all 7 years remains to be fulfilled. Imo, the time of Jacob's trouble began in 70ad and is still happening, the GT is upon the church, not Israel or the world. Something the bible warns us we will go through over and over in the NT.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually some are appointed to wrath, and I believe its eternal 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This certainly presupposes some have been appointed to wrath.

They are those God created as what is called vessels of wrath which He fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Timtofly]

Nope, the covenant in Dan. 9:27 is not a holy covenant, it's simply a temporary peace treaty involving Israel and the a/c that allows them to return to the sacrificial system for a while. Historicism is the eschatology of the impatient and not a bit of truth to it.

And that is called human imagination. John never declares this in Revelation. Seems God left it up for those today to just make up anything they want, and that is what they will believe.

 

[Timtofly]

Dan. 9:27 isn't about Jesus at all, it's about the a/c. This is not a holy covenant it's simply a temporary peace treaty of sorts. The narrative about Christ ends him being "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, then we have 70ad and the prince to come is the evil one spoken of in many prophecies and no it hasn't happened yet. The 70th week, all 7 years remains to be fulfilled. Imo, the time of Jacob's trouble began in 70ad and is still happening, the GT is upon the church, not Israel or the world. Something the bible warns us we will go through over and over in the NT.

So an AC came in 70AD made a 7 year treaty, but will return soon to finish that 7 year treaty? OK, once more, human imagination at work here.

 

[Trekson]

And that is called human imagination. John never declares this in Revelation. Seems God left it up for those today to just make up anything they want, and that is what they will believe.

There is nothing in Rev. that explicitly connects it to the 70th week at all except our presumptions and similar symbolism but I do agree it's about the 70th week but why should God need to repeat himself. It's up to us to rightly divide the word of truth and many times the expected outcome isn't the correct one. But here's something not everyone agrees with either. The a/c's purpose for Israel isn't to destroy it but to take their worship normally reserved for God and have them worship him instead, thus he will be the defacto leader of Israel as a man accepted as messiah and Israel will be part of the his ten nation confederacy.

 

[Trekson]

So an AC came in 70AD made a 7 year treaty, but will return soon to finish that 7 year treaty? OK, once more, human imagination at work here.

Really, dude, try reading the passage as written. It's the "people of the " prince to come that will destroy the city, that prince wasn't Titus nor was he in 70ad. The Roman armies were made up of conscripted soldiers from the conquered nations surrounding Israel. The future prince, the a/c will head a ten nation confederacy made up of nations from the "eastern" part of the Roman empire thus the "part iron and part clay" description. It's the prince that will come, the a/c, in the future that will make the covenant that allows them, for a short while to return to their useless sacrifice system as part of his guise as being the messiah.

 

[Timtofly]

There is nothing in Rev. that explicitly connects it to the 70th week at all except our presumptions and similar symbolism but I do agree it's about the 70th week but why should God need to repeat himself. It's up to us to rightly divide the word of truth and many times the expected outcome isn't the correct one. But here's something not everyone agrees with either. The a/c's purpose for Israel isn't to destroy it but to take their worship normally reserved for God and have them worship him instead, thus he will be the defacto leader of Israel as a man accepted as messiah and Israel will be part of the his ten nation confederacy.

Revelation 10:7

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Do you know another mystery that involves a countdown of time that ends at the 7th Trumpet given in the prophets, besides Daniel's 70 weeks. Did John have to give chapter and verse, because it seems no one accepts God's Word without a chapter and verse in these forums?

You do realize that John pulled most of his symbolism from the OT?

Why do you all fight Gabriel's point:

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

It is right there what the 70th week is. 69 weeks then boom, the Messiah the Prince. Can it be any clearer?

Here is what Jesus said about the Cross:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

That was obedience as Messiah.

Now the obedience of the Prince part was given in Daniel 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This is not about the antichrist, nor is Jesus being rebellious against God.

It translates into Jesus allowing this to happen:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Jesus has to give up His throne in Jerusalem for Satan and the FP to take over. God does not retreat because Satan forces God's hand by setting up an AC that is greater than Jesus. Those 42 months of desolation is God being longsuffering and merciful to allow more humans to choose God over Satan. All those who choose to chop off their heads and avoid the mark is the reason for God's long suffering. Just like the Cross was the salvation for billions, the act of confirming the same Atonement Covenant of the Cross, will allow more humans to accept God, even if Satan gets his 42 months of abomination of desolation.

 

[Timtofly]

Really, dude, try reading the passage as written. It's the "people of the " prince to come that will destroy the city, that prince wasn't Titus nor was he in 70ad. The Roman armies were made up of conscripted soldiers from the conquered nations surrounding Israel. The future prince, the a/c will head a ten nation confederacy made up of nations from the "eastern" part of the Roman empire thus the "part iron and part clay" description. It's the prince that will come, the a/c, in the future that will make the covenant that allows them, for a short while to return to their useless sacrifice system as part of his guise as being the messiah.

Jerusalem will not be destroyed in the future. It was destroyed by Jesus' own people because they revolted against Rome.

Sorry but you are mixing your symbolism together to make a false objection. Rome is never coming back as ten toes or any other aspiration.

The iron and clay was destroyed at the time of the Reformation. The second time in history the gospel began to go out over the next 300 years to the whole earth. It took longer than the first century, because there were more people, more opposition, and way more nations split into smaller groups.

You had 4 to 5 major nations trying to colonize the world. Not to mention the church was no more of one mind. Had it not been that way, there would never had even been a Reformation.

Because of the Reformation nothing about Rome will ever come back. The destruction at the Second Coming will certainly guarantee that current geopolitical situations around most of the world will be eternally different. Certain nations around Israel will be about all that stays intact. Amil get the extent of the destruction, but get everything else wrong.

Revelation 13 is a whole new group of nations, and most of them will be totally different than today's earthly nations.

 

[Trekson]

Revelation 10:7

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Do you know another mystery that involves a countdown of time that ends at the 7th Trumpet given in the prophets, besides Daniel's 70 weeks. Did John have to give chapter and verse, because it seems no one accepts God's Word without a chapter and verse in these forums?

You do realize that John pulled most of his symbolism from the OT?

Why do you all fight Gabriel's point:

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

It is right there what the 70th week is. 69 weeks then boom, the Messiah the Prince. Can it be any clearer?

Here is what Jesus said about the Cross:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

That was obedience as Messiah.

Now the obedience of the Prince part was given in Daniel 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This is not about the antichrist, nor is Jesus being rebellious against God.

It translates into Jesus allowing this to happen:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Jesus has to give up His throne in Jerusalem for Satan and the FP to take over. God does not retreat because Satan forces God's hand by setting up an AC that is greater than Jesus. Those 42 months of desolation is God being longsuffering and merciful to allow more humans to choose God over Satan. All those who choose to chop off their heads and avoid the mark is the reason for God's long suffering. Just like the Cross was the salvation for billions, the act of confirming the same Atonement Covenant of the Cross, will allow more humans to accept God, even if Satan gets his 42 months of abomination of desolation.

When did Messiah the prince come in fulfillment of this particular prophecy? At birth? No, At the beginning of his ministry? No. It was when he fulfilled Zech. 9:14 just a couple of days before his death, thus it was his death that closed the 69th week. Sorry but Jesus doesn't need to give up anything for satan to do what he pleases. He has always done so although on occasion God says, No you can't do that!

 

[Trekson]

Jerusalem will not be destroyed in the future. It was destroyed by Jesus' own people because they revolted against Rome.

Sorry but you are mixing your symbolism together to make a false objection. Rome is never coming back as ten toes or any other aspiration.

The iron and clay was destroyed at the time of the Reformation. The second time in history the gospel began to go out over the next 300 years to the whole earth. It took longer than the first century, because there were more people, more opposition, and way more nations split into smaller groups.

You had 4 to 5 major nations trying to colonize the world. Not to mention the church was no more of one mind. Had it not been that way, there would never had even been a Reformation.

Because of the Reformation nothing about Rome will ever come back. The destruction at the Second Coming will certainly guarantee that current geopolitical situations around most of the world will be eternally different. Certain nations around Israel will be about all that stays intact. Amil get the extent of the destruction, but get everything else wrong.

Revelation 13 is a whole new group of nations, and most of them will be totally different than today's earthly nations.

I'll give you an A for originality, scripturaly incorrect, but something I hadn't heard before.