We Are Not Appointed to "ETERNAL" Wrath

[rockytopva]

The accounting of time must come to an end. Where will you be when these words are uttered?

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer. - Revelation 10:5-6

Eternity is forever. Even if we tried to account for it we would eventually run out of numbers to describe our time.

 

[Davy]

I’ve come to the conclusion that no one really knows about the last seven years, Jacob’s trouble, the timing of the rapture, Amillennialism vs Pre Trib Millennialism. so I’ll just believe what makes the most sense which is the Futurist view

Then why not just come out and say that you follow men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, John Darby's 'secret rapture' of 1830's Great Britain?

 

[Davy]

Nope, the covenant in Dan. 9:27 is not a holy covenant, it's simply a temporary peace treaty involving Israel and the a/c that allows them to return to the sacrificial system for a while. Historicism is the eschatology of the impatient and not a bit of truth to it.

This is actually true, as written, and not from man's false Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

The "league" (KJV) of Daniel 11 that the coming "vile person" makes with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem is the "covenant" of Daniel 9:27.

Those who wrongly think that "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is about the New Covenant don't like one bringing up the topic of that "league" (KJV) that the "vile person" of Daniel 11 makes, which is a further detail of the events of that Daniel 9:27 verse, and is revealed for the end of this world.

 

[Davy]

Apostle Paul's "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 that occurs with the last 3rd Woe. Both are about the event of Christ's future return back to this earth when gathering His faithful Church, and they all go to Jerusalem per Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14 is omitted in the teaching of most churches on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctrine of men. The reason is because it shows Jesus Christ coming on the "day of the Lord" when the future battle of Armageddon happens, and on that day Jesus comes in the clouds, gathers His faithful Church, and they all together go to Jerusalem, on earth, where He at that moment begins His eternal reign on earth.

Even in Acts 1 which showed Jesus ascending to Heaven with His disciples with Him there upon the Mount of Olives and watching, two angels appeared to His disciples there and told them Jesus would come "in like manner" as they saw Him go into Heaven.

 

[Trekson]

This is actually true, as written, and not from man's false Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

The "league" (KJV) of Daniel 11 that the coming "vile person" makes with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem is the "covenant" of Daniel 9:27.

Those who wrongly think that "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is about the New Covenant don't like one bringing up the topic of that "league" (KJV) that the "vile person" of Daniel 11 makes, which is a further detail of the events of that Daniel 9:27 verse, and is revealed for the end of this world.

Just my opinion but I think the "many" in Dan. 9:27 unfortunately means the majority, greater than a small group.

 

[Trekson]

Apostle Paul's "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 that occurs with the last 3rd Woe. Both are about the event of Christ's future return back to this earth when gathering His faithful Church, and they all go to Jerusalem per Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14 is omitted in the teaching of most churches on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctrine of men. The reason is because it shows Jesus Christ coming on the "day of the Lord" when the future battle of Armageddon happens, and on that day Jesus comes in the clouds, gathers His faithful Church, and they all together go to Jerusalem, on earth, where He at that moment begins His eternal reign on earth.

Even in Acts 1 which showed Jesus ascending to Heaven with His disciples with Him there upon the Mount of Olives and watching, two angels appeared to His disciples there and told them Jesus would come "in like manner" as they saw Him go into Heaven.

I believe "most" of Zech. 14 is post mill. It doesn't say or imply that he is arriving, simply that he is standing there helping his people get to safety. He won't stand on the earth until "after" Armageddon. I believe Armageddon to be history hear and is what is spoken of in vss. 1-2 but then I think it jumps a thousand years and Armageddon is the "great battle" referred to in vs. 3. Vss. 6-8 match the description given of the post mill NHNE in Rev. 22:5. Also vs. 12 matches, imo, what I think Rev. 20:9 will look like but then I think vss. 16-21 goes back to the millennial period. Going back and forth in time isn't that unusual for OT prophets because of what is known as "telescoping" where the prophets see the mountaintop of events but not the valleys of time between them.

 

[Davy]

Just my opinion but I think the "many" in Dan. 9:27 unfortunately means the majority, greater than a small group.

Not widely known, but one of the main Occult fraternities in the world is Jewish, and related to the workers in Solomon's temple. This is one of the reasons why they use so many symbols from ancient Egypt, Phoenicia, etc.

The difficulty in understanding that is how these specific Jews represent 'false Jews' that Jesus warned about (like the "tares" of Matthew 13), that He called the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2 & 3), and it's about foreigners that crept in, like the Canaanite leftovers that slowly crept in among Judah long, long ago.

If you look back at Old Testament about the workers to build the city of David and Solomon's temple, the Israelites didn't really have the technical know-how, so they drafted workers from Sidon (see 2 Samuel 5:11 and 1 Kings 5). Big creeping in of pagan foreigners among Israel then. Also see 1 Kings 9:19-22.

 

[Davy]

I believe "most" of Zech. 14 is post mill. It doesn't say or imply that he is arriving, simply that he is standing there helping his people get to safety. He won't stand on the earth until "after" Armageddon. I believe Armageddon to be history hear and is what is spoken of in vss. 1-2 but then I think it jumps a thousand years and Armageddon is the "great battle" referred to in vs. 3. Vss. 6-8 match the description given of the post mill NHNE in Rev. 22:5. Also vs. 12 matches, imo, what I think Rev. 20:9 will look like but then I think vss. 16-21 goes back to the millennial period. Going back and forth in time isn't that unusual for OT prophets because of what is known as "telescoping" where the prophets see the mountaintop of events but not the valleys of time between them.

I believe what the Zechariah 14 Scripture states, along with all Scripture that also points to that future event. And it's like I have shown in many threads, the "day of the Lord" is the literal 'day' when Jesus returns and gathers His faithful Church, and then takes them to Jerusalem to begin His reign.

The "last trump" (7th Trumpet) event signals the moment when all still alive on earth are 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye". That is about God's consuming fire event that is going to burn man's works and the things of this present world off this earth. It will happen like the OT prophets declare, and that even Apostle Paul declared "suddenly", at an instant. It is that event that literally removes... the veil hiding the Heavenly dimension. It will be because we will see it with our spiritual body eyes, and not with our flesh body (you already have a 'spiritual body' dwelling inside your flesh - 2 Cor.5). Our flesh bodies will be disintegrated at an instant, suddenly revealing our spiritual bodies, on this earth.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture mentions too many things related in other Bible Scripture to be about events that happen after Christ's future 1,000 years reign. One of the events that confuses many, is the re-appearance of the River of the Waters of Life and Tree of Life back on earth at Christ's future return. Ezekiel 47 parallels Revelation 21 about it, and Ezekiel 47 is showing the waters in Zech.14 flowing out from under the threshold of God's House in that Millennial time of Christ's "thousand years" reign. For the new heavens and a new earth timing after... Christ's 1,000 years reign, there is to be no more temple on earth. So that's also how we know that River returns with Lord Jesus, and He will reign with the temple of Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

 

[Timtofly]

When did Messiah the prince come in fulfillment of this particular prophecy? At birth? No, At the beginning of his ministry? No. It was when he fulfilled Zech. 9:14 just a couple of days before his death, thus it was his death that closed the 69th week. Sorry but Jesus doesn't need to give up anything for satan to do what he pleases. He has always done so although on occasion God says, No you can't do that!

So Jesus has been sitting on the throne in Jerusalem since the Cross. There will be no 1,000 year reign, because Jesus has been sitting there for 1993 years come this spring.

There was no fulness of the Gentiles, and Paul was wrong. Israel has been the capital of the world under the iron rod, rule of Christ. That sounds like Amil to me.

Messiah was cut off. That happened at the Cross. The King part is after the Second Coming. The King part did not happen first, and then the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

I'll give you an A for originality, scripturaly incorrect, but something I hadn't heard before.

Sorry your history does not lign up with Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

This is actually true, as written, and not from man's false Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

The "league" (KJV) of Daniel 11 that the coming "vile person" makes with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem is the "covenant" of Daniel 9:27.

Those who wrongly think that "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is about the New Covenant don't like one bringing up the topic of that "league" (KJV) that the "vile person" of Daniel 11 makes, which is a further detail of the events of that Daniel 9:27 verse, and is revealed for the end of this world.

Do you know how many leagues have been made throughout history? Too many to count.

Only one Covenant was made by God worth counting and that was the Atonement of the Cross. That was in place before the foundation of the world. Yes, even before Moses and the Law.

You need to chuck your human theology of a future AC. Not found in Revelation at all. You need to chuck your 7 years, doctrine of man. Not found in Revelation at all. For one who complains others have human doctrine they are clinging too, you do as well. When you find this 7 year treaty in Revelation, let me know. Otherwise, it is never going to happen.

 

[Davy]

Do you know how many leagues have been made throughout history? Too many to count.

Irrelevant. The "league" of Daniel 11 by the symbolic "vile person" has ATTACHED TO IT THE EVENT OF THE "ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" JESUS FOREWARNED ABOUT IN HIS SIGNS FOR THE END OF THIS WORLD.

Do you KNOW the SIGNS of the END that Lord Jesus gave His Church for the END?

 

[Davy]

So... back to this Thread's Title, that those in Christ Jesus are NOT appointed to God's Wrath.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Did you know brethren in Christ, that there's actually EIGHT previous verses before that 9th verse above?

That 9th verse of 1 Thessalonians 5 is often abused by the false Pre-trib Rapture Theory crowd. They love to pull that single 9th verse out of that chapter, and apply it to their pet pre-trib rapture theory. That is Bible butchery.

So what's in Apostle Paul's PREVIOUS 8 VERSES THERE?

 

[RLT63]

Then why not just come out and say that you follow men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, John Darby's 'secret rapture' of 1830's Great Britain?

Because I’m not sure which view is correct

 

[Davy]

The first 8 verses of Apostle Paul's 1 Thessalonians 5 prophecy are easy to understand IF... one has done their homework in the Old Testament histories and prophecies.

1 Thess 5:1-9
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What was Apostle Paul's subject in the PREVIOUS CHAPTER 4? It was about the event of Christ's future coming and His gathering His Church. Paul is actually continuing... some prophetic events about that day of Christ's future coming.

Those Paul speaks to had no need for him to go over those "times and the seasons" with them, because they ALREADY knew them. So what's that about? Paul is using that "times and the season" about the SIGNS OF THE END OF THIS WORLD. Did you not know that many of those events for the 'end' of this world were first written back in the Old Testament prophets? Don't be lazy, study the Old Testament too. That's all the Thessalonians had available in their day, just the Old Testament Scripture.

OK. So what events in the above was Paul speaking of that will take place at the 'end'? That "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" idea is one of those Old Testament prophecies about the last day of this world in our future. Even Lord Jesus said He will come "as a thief" (Rev.16:15). Paul then shows from the OT prophets about that "sudden destruction" coming upon those deceived who will be saying that "Peace and safety" at the end of this world. That day of Christ's future coming will... take those by surprise, "as a thief" breaking in at night.

Now the Pre-trib Rapture Theory school will NOT cover those above events about the 'last day' of this world wen Jesus comes to cause that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked. They instead just pull the 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse out of this chapter and attach it to their false pre-rapture theory. Why? Because these first eight verses by Paul here point DIRECTLY TO THE LAST DAY WHEN JESUS COMES, and not to their fake coming of Jesus prior... to the "great tribulation".

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul says they were not in darkness, that what day should overtake them "as a thief"? That "day of the Lord" that Paul mentioned, the "times and the seasons" which is about the SIGNS of the end of this world. That's what he said would not surprise, or overtake, them, again WHY? Because they ALREADY KNEW THOSE SIGNS FROM GOD'S WORD. They understood Paul about that "sudden destruction" event from OT prophecy. God through His prophet Isaiah even showed that destruction will end this present world "at an instant". Where do you think Paul got the idea in 1 Corinthians 15 about those still alive on earth at that "last trump" being 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye"? It really is... that simple.


5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

In that above, Paul compares being 'spiritually' asleep with those who are in spiritual darkness. Those in Christ instead are to be 'watching', and remain spiritually sober, and not spiritually drunken in the night.

So who is spiritually "drunken in the night"? Those who refuse to WATCH the SIGNS Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us in His Word about the very 'end' of this world leading up to His return. That... is what Paul is actually referring to, the teaching Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 commanding us to WATCH, because if the goodman of the house had known in what WATCH the thief would come, he would not have allowed his house to be broken up. Paul here is actually referring to that Message from our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

NOW, that specific "wrath" can be understood, because it is NOT Satan's wrath which Paul is pointing to, but to GOD's WRATH upon the wicked with that "sudden destruction" when THEY will be saying, "Peace and safety"!