Were they Jesus's siblings?

[Sigma]

And still, your opening post is wrong, according to the Scriptures.

and then theres reality, where in the opening post the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.

 

[Rockerduck]

So Cain killed his cousin Abel. Everybody in the bible that refers to brother are cousins. John and James were cousins.

Mark 6:3 - Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

Galatians 1:19 - But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul, are wrong, all the interpreters are wrong, all the Greek scholars that worked with Bible translators are wrong.

But you found the secret that nobody knew for over 2000 yrs.. Just think , Bible translators could have called you and everything would be right.

 

[Sigma]

So Cain killed his cousin Abel. Everybody in the bible that refers to brother are cousins. John and James were cousins.

Mark 6:3 - Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

Galatians 1:19 - But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul, are wrong, all the interpreters are wrong, all the Greek scholars that worked with Bible translators are wrong.

But you found the secret that nobody knew for over 2000 yrs.. Just think , Bible translators could have called you and everything would be right.

Cain and Abel were siblings, John and James of Zebedee were siblings, but not everybody called someone's brother means they're siblings. Apparently, you don't know the word "brother" can refer to other types of kinsmen as well, not only siblings. Well, now you know.

In Matt. 13:55, Jesus is called Joseph's son, so should we say that He biologically was, despite the information that shows He wasn't? In that same verse, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's brothers, so should we say that they were His siblings, despite the information provided in the opening post that shows they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, thus making them His cousins?

The opening post also shows that Jesus's cousin James in Matt. 13:55, apostle James of Alphaeus, and James in Gal. 1:19, etc., were the same person.

 

[Sigma]

First born has always been used to designate the first of at least 2 children.

Thank you for confirming you didn't know the word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos) has more than one definition. Now that you know, show how the word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos) in Lk. 2:7 in itself means Jesus had siblings.

Strongs, thayers and other lexicons do not list adelphe and adelphoi with a sub definition of kinsmen vis a vis- cousin.

...until you establish a named and recognized Greek dictionary (not just something called a greek dictionary) that the NT used adelphos as cousin in stead of the common and known word like "syngenes" your case is nonexistent

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (adelphē) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, that's why the following Bill Mounce's Greek dictionary has "kinsman" or "kinswoman" as a definition for them, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't are incomplete.

The words "συγγενής" (sing. syngenēs) and "συγγενίς" (sing. syngenis) also have the definition "kinsman" and/or "kinswoman". See below.

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ
Greek transliteration: adelphos
Simplified transliteration: adelphos

Numbers
Strong's number: 80
GK Number: 81

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 343
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss:
brother, fellow countryman, neighbor (often inclusive in gender); by extension a fellow believer in the family of faith; in the plural brothers regularly refers to men and women

Definition:
a brother, near kinsman, or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: ἀδελφή, -ῆς, ἡ
Greek transliteration: adelphē
Simplified transliteration: adelphe

Numbers
Strong's number: 79
GK Number: 80

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 26
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-1b

Gloss:
sister, fellow countrywoman; by extension a female believer, a sister in the family of faith

Definition:
a sister; near kinswoman, or female relative, a female member of the Christian community

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: συγγενής, -ές
Greek transliteration: syngenēs
Simplified transliteration: syngenes

Numbers
Strong's number: 4773
GK Number: 5150

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 11
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: a-4a

Gloss:
family, relative, one's own race or people

Definition:
kindred, akin;, as a subst. a kinsman or kinswoman, relative; Mk. 6:4; Lk. 1:58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; Jn. 18:26; Acts 10:24; one nationally akin, a fellow countryman, Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21*

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: συγγενίς, ίδος, ἡ
Greek transliteration: syngenis
Simplified transliteration: syngenis

Numbers
Strong's number: 4773
GK Number: 5151

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 1
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-3c(2)

Gloss:
(female) relative

Definition:
a kinswoman, female relative, Lk. 1:36*

So, the use of either συγγενής" (sing. syngenēs) or "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) to refer to kinsmen is acceptable. In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοὶ" (pl. adelphoi). The evidence in the opening post shows they were the sons of Joseph's brother, making them Jesus's cousins, and thus the definition "kinsman" applies, because a kinsman or kinswoman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

So the bible made a mistake then. It called her marys sister when it should read, Mary, the sister of Jospeh, Marys husband.

The gospel writer didn't make a mistake. Since Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was married to Joseph's brother, it makes her the sister-in-law of Joseph and Mary. It just wasn't necessary to mention Joseph in Jn. 19:25 since out of those three it was only about she and Mary of Joseph.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, the use of either συγγενής" (sing. syngenēs) or "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) to refer to kinsmen is acceptable. In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοὶ" (pl. adelphoi). The evidence in the opening post shows they were the sons of Joseph's brother, making them Jesus's cousins, and thus the definition "kinsman" applies, because a kinsman or kinswoman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

According to Mounce, but all the rest disagree. So you found one who supports your agenda. Now show why He should be listened to above the PHD's in Koine Greek.

Just so you know what kind of scholar you picked:

William D. Mounce​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Education	Bethel College, St. Paul Western Kentucky University Fuller Theological Seminary Aberdeen University

William D. Mounce (born 17 February 1953) is an American scholar of New Testament Greek. He has also worked as an author, teacher and preacher.

Education[edit]​

• Ph.D. 1981, in New Testament. Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, Scotland.
• M.A. 1977, in Biblical Studies. Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California.
• B.A. 1975, in Biblical Studies, minor in Greek. Bethel College, St. Paul, Minnesota; Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, Kentucky, 1971-74.

Career[edit]​

Mounce taught at Azusa Pacific University for ten years. He then worked as a professor of New Testament and director of the Greek Program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He also worked as a preaching pastor at a church in Spokane, WA.
He was the New Testament chair of the English Standard Version translation of the Bible, and serves on the NIV translation committee.[1]
He is the founder and president of Biblical Training, a non-profit organization offering educational resources for discipleship in the local church. At his personal site, he also writes blogs including Monday with Mounce and Greek Word for the Day.
Mounce authored the bestselling Greek textbook, Basics of Biblical Greek, which won a 2003 Reader's Preference Editor's Choice Award in the Sacred Texts category

His Greek training was as a minor study in his bachelors degree. Not the kind of expert to go against the rest.

I took one yeare of Koine Greek as a minor for my bachelors in biblical studies as well!

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (adelphē) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, that's why the following Bill Mounce's Greek dictionary has "kinsman" or "kinswoman" as a definition, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't are incomplete.

Other than the contested verse- show one example of adelpos as kinsmen or cousin.

YOu need to prove that James Joses ssSimon and Jude are not half brothers and the sisters are not sisters.

YOu have failed. YOu only gave opinion of writers several centuries later about the lineage of common Jewish names.

The gospel writer didn't make a mistake. Since Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was married to Joseph's brother, it makes her the sister-in-law of Joseph and Mary. It just wasn't necessary to mention Joseph in Jn. 19:25 since out of those three it was only about she and Mary of Joseph.

And you know that how? Especially inlight of the writers mention Peters wifes' mother being sick/

YOu need more than a not common used dictionary over the the most recognized greek concordances and dictionaries and lexicons.

 

[Rockerduck]

Cain and Abel were siblings, John and James of Zebedee were siblings, but not everybody called someone's brother means they're siblings. Apparently, you don't know the word "brother" can refer to other types of kinsmen as well, not only siblings. Well, now you know.

In Matt. 13:55, Jesus is called Joseph's son, so should we say that He biologically was, despite the information that shows He wasn't? In that same verse, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's brothers, so should we say that they were His siblings, despite the information provided in the opening post that shows they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, thus making them His cousins?

The opening post also shows that Jesus's cousin James in Matt. 13:55, apostle James of Alphaeus, and James in Gal. 1:19, etc., were the same person.

Nope, All, and I mean all, scholars of the bible and interpreters, used brother to mean brother from Genesis to Revelation. You are spreading false gospel, because you find anything and everything to agree with your "doctrine' , but is 100% incorrect. You don't know Jewish history. Joseph and Mary were a married couple. That means they had to consummate to be married or the marriage wasn't legal. Consummations were documented; usually in a tent at the wedding itself.

 

[Sigma]

All, and I mean all, scholars of the bible and interpreters, used brother to mean brother from Genesis to Revelation.

The Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) and "אָח" ('âch) and their Koine Greek equivalents "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) and "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) share the definitions "brother" and "kinsmen". The word "brother" can refer to other types of kinsmen as well, not only siblings. See examples below.

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) in Gen. 13:8 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) and "אָח" ('âch) in Gen 14:14 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Abraham and Lot, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ Μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου. ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν." (Gen. 13:8) and "ἀκούσας δὲ Αβραμ ὅτι ᾐχμαλώτευται Λωτ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, ἠρίθμησεν τοὺς ἰδίους οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, τριακοσίους δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ, καὶ κατεδίωξεν ὀπίσω αὐτῶν ἕως Δαν." (Gen. 14:14)

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אָח" ('âch) in Gen. 29:15 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Jacob and Laban, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "Εἶπε δὲ Λάβαν τῷ ᾿Ιακώβ· ὅτι γὰρ ἀδελφός μου εἶ, οὐ δουλεύσεις μοι δωρεάν· ἀπάγγειλόν μοι, τίς ὁ μισθός σου ἐστί;" (Gen. 29:15

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אחים" ('âchiem) in 1 Chr. 23:21–22 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) to show it was kin the daughters of Eleazar married, which lineage shows was their cousins: "καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ελεαζαρ, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ υἱοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ θυγατέρες, καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὰς υἱοὶ Κις ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν." (1 Chr. 23:22)

In the New Testamemt in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi). In the opening post is evidence that shows they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, which makes those kinsmen of Jesus His cousins.

So, all the examples above show you're wrong to say that the word "brother" has only been used to refer to siblings from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Rockerduck]

same old, same old cut and paste, over and over again.

 

[Sigma]

same old, same old cut and paste, over and over again.

That was actually the first time I had to cite to you examples in Scripture that show you're wrong to say the word "brother" has only been used to refer to siblings from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Sigma]

You need to prove that James Joses Simon and Jude are not half brothers...

I did. In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.

...show one example of adelpos as kinsmen

Matt. 12:46;13:55; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 2:12;7:3; and Gal. 1:19.

According to Mounce, but all the rest disagree. His Greek training was as a minor study in his bachelors degree. Not the kind of expert to go against the rest. I took one year of Koine Greek as a minor for my bachelors in biblical studies as well!

So, according to yourself, you don't know what you're talking about. As for Bill Mounce, he not only has a minor degree in Greek, but a Ph.D. in the New Testament, an M.A. in Biblical Studies, serves on the Committee for Bible Translation (which is responsible for the NIV translation of the Bible), was the New Testament chair for the English Standard Version, has written the best-selling biblical Greek textbook, Basics of Biblical Greek, the standard textbook for colleges and seminaries, and many other Greek resources, was a professor of New Testament and director of the Greek Language Program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a professor at Azusa Pacific University, etc. So, your trying to call his Greek into question is asinine.

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why Bill Mounce's Greek dictionary has "kinsman" or "kinswoman" as a definition for them, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't are incomplete.

And you know that how?

How do I know it was unnecessary to mention Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was also Joseph's sister-in-law in Jn. 19:25? It's called common sense. Jn. 19:25 is about those present at the cross during Jesus's crucifixion, two of which were Mary of Joseph and Her sister-in-law, Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus), the third being Mary Magdalene. There was no need to mention Joseph because he wasn't there.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I did. In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.

No you just provided opinions of writers that cannot override the fact that the most professional concordances and Lexicons do not recognize "kinsmen" as a use of "adelphos" in the NT.

How do I know it was unnecessary to mention Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was also Joseph's sister-in-law in Jn. 19:25? It's called common sense. Jn. 19:25 is about those present at the cross during Jesus's crucifixion, two of which were Mary of Joseph and Her sister-in-law, Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus), the third being Mary Magdalene. There was no need to mention Joseph because he wasn't there.

And yet you lack that common sense when it comes to understanding Matt. 13:55 to support Roman Catholic dogma

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why Bill Mounce's Greek dictionary has "kinsman" or "kinswoman" as a definition for them, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't are incomplete.

And when did Mounce become the foremost expert in Koine Greek? With only a minor in his bachelors degree in NT Greek. Why should I believe Mounce over Wuest, Dobson, Fruchtenbaum, Eddersheim, Thayers, Youngs, Strong et al. who all hold much higher degrees in NT Greek?

I have a teacher wh0o has a masters in greek who disputes Mounce.

So, according to yourself, you don't know what you're talking about. As for Bill Mounce, he not only has a minor degree in Greek, but a Ph.D. in the New Testament, an M.A. in Biblical Studies, serves on the Committee for Bible Translation (which is responsible for the NIV translation of the Bible), was the New Testament chair for the English Standard Version, has written the best-selling biblical Greek textbook, Basics of Biblical Greek, the standard textbook for colleges and seminaries, and many other Greek resources, was a professor of New Testament and director of the Greek Language Program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a professor at Azusa Pacific University, etc. So, your trying to call his Greek into question is asinine.

Biblical Studies are not mastering the greek Language.

I have just a mere bachelors in biblical studies and a masters in Christian Psychology.

 

[face2face]

That was actually the first time I had to cite to you examples in Scripture that show you're wrong to say the word "brother" has only been used to refer to siblings from Genesis to Revelation.

It's so futile the defense of your position you might as well write your own Bible.

Can you explain why Jesus would rebuke his mother? Why is she often presented as being in the wrong? Explain why she was without the spiritual circle of Jesus' influence?

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. Mark 3:31

Mary and Jesus' brothers are without!
Why so?

What lesson did Mary take away from this exchange?

Was Mary wrong or right to try and take Jesus home?

F2F

 

[Sigma]

Can you explain why Jesus would rebuke his mother? Why is she often presented as being in the wrong? Explain why she was without the spiritual circle of Jesus' influence?

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. Mark 3:31

Mary and Jesus' brothers are without!
Why so?

What lesson did Mary take away from this exchange?

Was Mary wrong or right to try and take Jesus home?

Jesus's brothers who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. Jesus showed this scene to Maria Valtorta on Sept 2, 1945, which she described in full, and you can read it in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436.

 

[face2face]

Jesus's brothers who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. Jesus showed this scene to Maria Valtorta on Sept 2, 1945, which she described in full, and you can read it in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436.

It's not what I asked. Something tells me you suffer from confirmation bias in a big way!
Try answering the questions.
F2F

 

[Sigma]

It's not what I asked. Something tells me you suffer from confirmation bias in a big way!
Try answering the questions.
F2F

You asked questions about the scene in Matt. 12:46/Mk. 3:31. If you really want answers then read the scene in full from Jesus Himself in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436.

 

[Sigma]

Why should I believe Mounce over Wuest, Dobson, Fruchtenbaum, Eddersheim, Thayers, Youngs, Strong et al. who all hold much higher degrees in NT Greek?

I've shown that the words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why the definitions "kinsman" or "kinswoman" are included in Mounce's and Liddell-Scott-Jones's Greek dictionaries, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't include them are incomplete.

In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3; James the brother of the Lord; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James the Less; James the Just; and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the cousins of Jesus.

The Truth has been shown to you. Let him that hears, hear, and him that disobeys, disobey.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Truth has been shown to you. Let him that hears, hear, and him that disobeys, disobey.

The truth has been told to you, but you are determined to keep repeating the same nonsense.....and yet still you cannot seem to understand that the Catholic Church is the only one that promotes the the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.....nowhere in all of scripture does it suggest a sham marriage between Joseph and Mary.....they had other children, because there was no reason in a family oriented society to refrain from that blessing in a normal Jewish marriage. (Psalm 127:3)

Why is it so impossible that Jesus had siblings? You rely on the words of some woman who claims that Jesus spoke to her....the psyke wards are full of those people.....should we believe them too?!

You lost the argument at the beginning, so repeating it has got you nowhere......give it up. Jesus had siblings.....at least 6 of them.

 

[Sigma]

The truth has been told to you, but you are determined to keep repeating the same nonsense.....and yet still you cannot seem to understand that the Catholic Church is the only one that promotes the the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.....nowhere in all of scripture does it suggest a sham marriage between Joseph and Mary.....they had other children, because there was no reason in a family oriented society to refrain from that blessing in a normal Jewish marriage. (Psalm 127:3)

Why is it so impossible that Jesus had siblings? You rely on the words of some woman who claims that Jesus spoke to her....the psyke wards are full of those people.....should we believe them too?!

You lost the argument at the beginning, so repeating it has got you nowhere......give it up. Jesus had siblings.....at least 6 of them.

The Truth has been shown to you. Let him that hears, hear, and him that disobeys, disobey.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Truth has been shown to you. Let him that hears, hear, and him that disobeys, disobey.

It’s not the truth....who told you it was?

 

[Sigma]

It’s not the truth....who told you it was?

I already told you how I know it's the Truth.