The opening post shows Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas. It also shows that same James and Judas were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus. It also shows that same James, James in Gal. 1:19, James the Less, James the bishop of Jerusalem, etc., were the same person.
Were they Jesus's siblings?
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The opening post shows Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas. It also shows that same James and Judas were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus. It also shows that same James, James in Gal. 1:19, James the Less, James the bishop of Jerusalem, etc., were the same person.
False: they are two diferent families:
1) Mary, Jesus' mother, had four sons besides Jesus: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
2) The other Mary, Cleophas's wife, had two sons: James the Less, and Joses
1) Mary, Jesus' mother, had four sons besides Jesus: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
2) The other Mary, Cleophas's wife, had two sons: James the Less, and Joses
Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons. They're only called Jesus's "adelphoi" which in English translates to "brothers", and that in itself doesn't prove they were His siblings, because that word has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".
We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. For this reason, your merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies. And, I know you can't prove it does because of the following:
In the opening post, I actually show the type of kinship that applies between Jesus and Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) is that of cousins, because I showed the latter four were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas. Also, the Mary of James and Joseph in Matt. 27:56 is the same Mary in Jn. 19:25 who's called Mary of Joseph's sister. Biological sisters who share the same first name? No, but rather Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Cleophas) was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law because, again, she was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus.
So, like I've been showing, there are two families:
Joseph, Mary of Joseph, and Jesus
Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas, Joseph's brother), Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus, Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law), Joseph, Simon, James (apostle; James the Less; the Just; bishop of Jerusalem; brother of the Lord; author of the Epistle of James) and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus, apostle; author of the Epistle of Jude)
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I understand that you try to force the Scriptures, making it believe that it is a single family with children who are not brothers of Jesus... That way it would be confirmed that Mary never had sexual relations with her husband, and the Catholic belief would be supported biblically . But that is not the biblical truth.
They are two different families, one of them has two sons, and the other has five sons including Jesus. Although there are several identical and similar names, as I explained before, the differences between both families are notable.
Also, if you don't know what "virginity" means, I'll tell you: Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus; Her hymen broke, she bled, and she ceased to be a virgin due to childbirth. She later had relations with her husband and they had four more children. This is the biblical truth.
They are two different families, one of them has two sons, and the other has five sons including Jesus. Although there are several identical and similar names, as I explained before, the differences between both families are notable.
Also, if you don't know what "virginity" means, I'll tell you: Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus; Her hymen broke, she bled, and she ceased to be a virgin due to childbirth. She later had relations with her husband and they had four more children. This is the biblical truth.
Actually, my proving Joseph, Simon, James, and Jude (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) doesn't prove the perpetual virginity of Mary, though that doesn't prove She isn't a perpetual Virgin either. And, there are plenty of reasons that show She is.
Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons. They're only called Jesus's "adelphoi" which in English translates to "brothers", and that in itself doesn't prove they were His siblings, because that word has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".
We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. For this reason, your merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies. And, I know you can't prove it does because of the following:
In the opening post, I actually show the type of kinship that applies between Jesus and Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) is that of cousins, because I showed the latter four were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas. Also, the Mary of James and Joseph in Matt. 27:56 is the same Mary in Jn. 19:25 who's called Mary of Joseph's sister. Biological sisters who share the same first name? No, but rather Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Cleophas) was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law because, again, she was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus.
So, like I've been showing, there are two families:
Joseph, Mary of Joseph, and Jesus
Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas, Joseph's brother), Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus, Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law), Joseph, Simon, James (apostle; James the Less; the Just; bishop; brother of the Lord; author of the Epistle of James) and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus, apostle; author of the Epistle of Jude)
There are two families:
1) Mary, Jesus' mother, had four sons besides Jesus: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
2) The other Mary, Cleophas's wife, had two sons: James the Less, and Joses.
The mother of the four is with them the times they go to see Jesus ... that is Mary, HIS MOTHER.
The sons of "the other Mary" are James the Less and Joses (only two sons), two diferent persons than the other James and Joseph the brothers of Jesus and of Simon and Jude.
Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:40,47 "Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses".
None of the four brothers of Jesus were apostles, but James the Less was one of the twelve.
You keep repeating the same like a litany, but the Bible is clear and you can't deny it no matter how much you try.
1) Mary, Jesus' mother, had four sons besides Jesus: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
2) The other Mary, Cleophas's wife, had two sons: James the Less, and Joses.
The mother of the four is with them the times they go to see Jesus ... that is Mary, HIS MOTHER.
The sons of "the other Mary" are James the Less and Joses (only two sons), two diferent persons than the other James and Joseph the brothers of Jesus and of Simon and Jude.
Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:40,47 "Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses".
None of the four brothers of Jesus were apostles, but James the Less was one of the twelve.
You keep repeating the same like a litany, but the Bible is clear and you can't deny it no matter how much you try.
Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons. They're only called Jesus's "adelphoi" which in English translates to "brothers", and that in itself doesn't prove they were His siblings, because that word has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".
We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. For this reason, your merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies. And, I know you can't prove it does because of the following:
In the opening post, I actually show the type of kinship that applies between Jesus and Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) is that of cousins, because I showed the latter four were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas.
Also, the Mary the mother of James and Joseph in Matt. 27:56 and Mary in Jn. 19:25 called Mary of Joseph's sister were the same person. Were these biological sisters given the same first name? No, but rather Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Cleophas) was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law because, again, she was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus.
So, like I've been showing, there are two families:
Joseph, Mary of Joseph, and Jesus
Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas, Joseph's brother), Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus, Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law), Joseph, Simon, James (apostle; James the Less; the Just; bishop; brother of the Lord; author of the Epistle of James) and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus, apostle; author of the Epistle of Jude)
Cleophas and his wife Mary ("the other Mary") are credited with two sons in the Bible: James the Less, and Joses (Matt. 27:56).
Mary, who is almost always mentioned accompanying "the brothers of Jesus" (except in John 7:3,5) is attributed with 4 more children: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
Note that Cleophas' son is called Joses (Mark 15:40,47), and Jesus' brother is called Joseph, a different name ... To verify this diference you should see in a Greek NT. Besides, Cleophas' son is James the Less (the nick is to diferenciate him from the other James), while Jesus' brother is called simply James, "the brother of the Lord." (Gal. 1:19).
They are two diferent families. Catholics lie ... purposely?
Mary, who is almost always mentioned accompanying "the brothers of Jesus" (except in John 7:3,5) is attributed with 4 more children: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.
Note that Cleophas' son is called Joses (Mark 15:40,47), and Jesus' brother is called Joseph, a different name ... To verify this diference you should see in a Greek NT. Besides, Cleophas' son is James the Less (the nick is to diferenciate him from the other James), while Jesus' brother is called simply James, "the brother of the Lord." (Gal. 1:19).
They are two diferent families. Catholics lie ... purposely?
Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Matt. 27:56) is called Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) and the "sister" of Mary of Joseph in Jn. 19:25. Were these biological sisters given the same first name? No, but rather this Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Cleophas) was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law, because she was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Alphaeus).
The opening post shows Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus).
Therefore, there are two families:
- Joseph, Mary of Joseph, and Jesus
- Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas, Joseph's brother), Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus, Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law), Joseph, Simon, James (apostle; James the Less; the Just; bishop; brother of the Lord; author of the Epistle of James) and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus, apostle; author of the Epistle of Jude)
ἀδελφός DOES NOT mean cousin. There is a distinct term for cousin in the NT, ἀνεψιός, and it is used in Col. 4:10.
The other Mary, Cleophas' wife, only had two sons: James the Less and Joses. She didn't have any son called Jude or Simon; that is why she is called "Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses" in Matt. 27:56 and Mark 15:40,47.
Jude, the inspired writer of the letter is the brother of James, the son of Mary.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James (...)
... he is not a son of Cleophas, but of Joseph and Mary, Jesus' mother.
Catholics lie... on purpose?
The other Mary, Cleophas' wife, only had two sons: James the Less and Joses. She didn't have any son called Jude or Simon; that is why she is called "Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses" in Matt. 27:56 and Mark 15:40,47.
Jude, the inspired writer of the letter is the brother of James, the son of Mary.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James (...)
... he is not a son of Cleophas, but of Joseph and Mary, Jesus' mother.
Catholics lie... on purpose?
They are not going to fool anyone else, because the Bible is no longer in museums or in languages that people cannot study. There are now translations in many languages and dictionaries of the original languages, and ancient manuscripts written in those languages. The Catholic curia can no longer hide the truth or distort it.
No Biblical Greek dictionary puts "cousin" as an alternative translation of the Greek word ἀδελφός. Therefore, the lie that Jesus' half-brothers are only his cousins no longer can walk on its short legs.
No Biblical Greek dictionary puts "cousin" as an alternative translation of the Greek word ἀδελφός. Therefore, the lie that Jesus' half-brothers are only his cousins no longer can walk on its short legs.
Again, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "kinsman":
A kinsman can refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.
Mary the mother of James and Joseph in Matt. 27:56 is called Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) and the "sister" of Mary of Joseph in Jn. 19:25. Were these biological sisters given the same first name? No, but rather this Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Cleophas) was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law, because she was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Alphaeus).
The evidence in the opening post shows Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus). Therefore, in Matt. 27:56, it's just two of Mary of Cleophas's four sons mentioned.
There are two families:
- Joseph, Mary of Joseph, and Jesus
- Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas, Joseph's brother), Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus, Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law), Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus)
Regarding the son Judas, the evidence in the opening post also shows he, the apostle Judas of Alphaeus and the author of the Epistle of Jude, were the same person.
"cousin" is not translation of ἀδελφός, otherwise the sense "cousin" would be included in the word meanings ... but it's not specified "cousin".
Jesus had four brothers, and his mother was not a virgen any more after she gave birth to Jesus ...
Cleophas had only two sons and Jesus' brothers were four.
You can't lie any more.
PS: No serious Greek Dictionary is called only "Greek Dictionary" ... Is that a joke?
Jesus had four brothers, and his mother was not a virgen any more after she gave birth to Jesus ...
Cleophas had only two sons and Jesus' brothers were four.
You can't lie any more.
PS: No serious Greek Dictionary is called only "Greek Dictionary" ... Is that a joke?
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Again, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "kinsman":
A kinsman can refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. That's why the Septuagint translators, for example, substituted the Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) in Gen. 13:8 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) and "אָח" ('âch) in Gen 14:14 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Abraham and Lot, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ Μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου. ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν." (Gen. 13:8) and "ἀκούσας δὲ Αβραμ ὅτι ᾐχμαλώτευται Λωτ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, ἠρίθμησεν τοὺς ἰδίους οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, τριακοσίους δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ, καὶ κατεδίωξεν ὀπίσω αὐτῶν ἕως Δαν." (Gen. 14:14)
The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אָח" ('âch) in Gen. 29:15 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Jacob and Laban, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "Εἶπε δὲ Λάβαν τῷ ᾿Ιακώβ· ὅτι γὰρ ἀδελφός μου εἶ, οὐ δουλεύσεις μοι δωρεάν· ἀπάγγειλόν μοι, τίς ὁ μισθός σου ἐστί;" (Gen. 29:15
The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אחים" ('âchiem) in 1 Chr. 23:21–22 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) to show it was kin the daughters of Eleazar married, which lineage shows was their cousins: "καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ελεαζαρ, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ υἱοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ θυγατέρες, καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὰς υἱοὶ Κις ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν." (1 Chr. 23:22)
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I don't need to read them because I know I never implied or conceded to that. Your replies to those posts even support I didn't. Why are you suddenly putting words in my mouth? Whether you explain why or not, people can go back through the thread and see for themselves I never said what you claim I did. Ask yourself, "If what I believe was really True, why did I need to resort to lying in order to "win"?
The word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos) or "firstborn" has more than one definition, and you've yet to show how the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7.
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Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons. They're only called Jesus's "adelphoi" which in English translates to "brothers", and that in itself doesn't prove they were His siblings, because that word has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".
We agree the definition that applies to that word in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 is "kinsman", but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and the word itself doesn't indicate which type of kinship applies. For this reason, your merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies. You haven't provided evidence like I have in the opening post to prove the type of kinship that applies is siblings. You should try, but I know you won't be successful, because the evidence in the opening post shows Mary in Matt. 27:56 and Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) in Jn. 19:25 were the same person, and that she and Alphaeus, Joseph's brother, were the parents of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus). Therefore, in Matt. 27:56, it's just two of Mary of Cleophas's four sons mentioned.
Regarding the son James, the evidence in the opening post also shows he, the apostle James of Alphaeus; James the Less; James the Just; James the bishop; James the brother of the Lord; and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person.
Regarding the son Judas, the evidence in the opening post also shows he, the apostle Judas of Alphaeus, and the author of the Epistle of Jude, were the same person.
Obviously, if we take into account that a brother (ἀδελφός) can be due to belonging to the same family tribe even if the common ancestor is distant in the past, as in the case of an Israelite with another Israelite, or an Moabite or Ammonite with an Israelite due to the relationship between Lot and Abraham, that doesn't mean the word is used to mean cousin. That is a lie, taking advantage of a coincidence to invent an empty theory.
In fact, if Mary the mother of Jesus was out with her four children, it is obvious that she was not with the other Mary's children, but with her own, and the word "cousins" could not be used for the simple fact that Jesus was with his apostles (other "cousins" because of a common ancestor) inside while his real brothers were outside... So there would be no difference or specification between the "cousins" outside and the "cousins" inside.
Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Or are you also going to invent that when it says "his mother" it means "his cousins' mother?"
PS: You should read serious dictionaries and not that supposed "Greek Dictionary" ... that no one knows who is the author.
In fact, if Mary the mother of Jesus was out with her four children, it is obvious that she was not with the other Mary's children, but with her own, and the word "cousins" could not be used for the simple fact that Jesus was with his apostles (other "cousins" because of a common ancestor) inside while his real brothers were outside... So there would be no difference or specification between the "cousins" outside and the "cousins" inside.
Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Or are you also going to invent that when it says "his mother" it means "his cousins' mother?"
PS: You should read serious dictionaries and not that supposed "Greek Dictionary" ... that no one knows who is the author.
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You would love a version of the Bible saying: "Now his mother and cousins came to him" in Matt. 12:46,47; 13:55; Mark 3:31,32; Luke 8:19,20; John 2:12; etc ...
But you know what? That version DOES NOT EXIST, because that would be a plain lie to everyone's sight, and Catholics don't want to be that obvious.
But you know what? That version DOES NOT EXIST, because that would be a plain lie to everyone's sight, and Catholics don't want to be that obvious.
Again, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "kinsman", and a kinsman can and has been used to refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc.
Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons. Only in two verses (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3) are those four called Jesus's "adelphoi", which in English translates to "brothers", and that in itself doesn't prove they were His siblings, because that word has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".
We agree the definition that applies to that word in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 is "kinsman", but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and the word itself doesn't indicate which type of kinship applies. For this reason, your merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies.
You haven't provided evidence like I have in the opening post that proves the type of kinship that applies. You should try, but I know you won't be successful, because the evidence in the opening post shows Mary in Matt. 27:56 and Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) in Jn. 19:25 were the same person, and that she and Alphaeus, Joseph's brother, were the parents of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus). Therefore, in Matt. 27:56, it's just two of Mary of Cleophas's four sons mentioned.
We agree the definition "kinsman" of the word "ἀδελφοὶ" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) applies in Lk. 8:19-20, but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and the word itself doesn't indicate which type of kinship applies. You assume the type of kinship that applies in Lk. 8:19-20 is siblings, you assume Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His siblings, you assume the aforementioned four were the brothers in Lk. 8:19-20, despite those verses giving zero indication of that, nor of how many brothers arrived.
It's a serious dictionary if you bothered to look at it, and the author's name is in the web address, as well as on the site itself, along with a bio. Thanks for displaying how lazy you are.
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