Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
now you need to show why the same authots used syngenes for cousins instead of adelphos.
Were they Jesus's siblings?
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The apostle John does distinguish between the three Marys, besides Mary the mother of Jesus.
1) Mary the sister of Lazarus
John 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick; he was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 This was the Mary who poured perfumed oil on the Lord and wiped his feet dry with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was sick.
2) Mary, the wife of Clopas, was the mother of James the Less and of his brother Joses. (Mt 27:56; 28:1; Mr 15:40; 16:1; Lu 24:10) Notice that there is a conjecture based entirely on tradition that this Clopas was a brother of Joseph, the adoptive father of Jesus.
John 19:25 By the torture stake of Jesus, however, there were standing his mother and his mother’s sister; Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene.
3) Mary Magdalene
John 20:1 On the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had already been taken away from the tomb.
1) Mary the sister of Lazarus
John 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick; he was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 This was the Mary who poured perfumed oil on the Lord and wiped his feet dry with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was sick.
2) Mary, the wife of Clopas, was the mother of James the Less and of his brother Joses. (Mt 27:56; 28:1; Mr 15:40; 16:1; Lu 24:10) Notice that there is a conjecture based entirely on tradition that this Clopas was a brother of Joseph, the adoptive father of Jesus.
John 19:25 By the torture stake of Jesus, however, there were standing his mother and his mother’s sister; Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene.
3) Mary Magdalene
John 20:1 On the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had already been taken away from the tomb.
Just as several Marys are mentioned in the Greek Scriptures (NT), so are several James mentioned. Three of them are:
1) A James who was a follower and apostle of Jesus. This James was Jesus' cousin because he was the son of a sister of Mary named Salome, brother of the apostle John, writer of his Gospel, the 3 letters and Revelation, and his father was Zebedee. This James was assassinated by Herod Agrippa I in the year 44 CE.
2) Another James mentioned is the brother of Jesus, who was not a Christian when his halfbrother lived, but Jesus appeared to him resurrected and after that he became an elder of importance in the central congregation in Jerusalem. He was the one who wrote the biblical book that bears his name. He died in 62 CE.
3) Another James was the son of Mary and Alphaeus/Cleophas, known as James the Less, another of Jesus' apostles.
Some confuse the James, as well as the Marys and the Johns.
1) A James who was a follower and apostle of Jesus. This James was Jesus' cousin because he was the son of a sister of Mary named Salome, brother of the apostle John, writer of his Gospel, the 3 letters and Revelation, and his father was Zebedee. This James was assassinated by Herod Agrippa I in the year 44 CE.
2) Another James mentioned is the brother of Jesus, who was not a Christian when his halfbrother lived, but Jesus appeared to him resurrected and after that he became an elder of importance in the central congregation in Jerusalem. He was the one who wrote the biblical book that bears his name. He died in 62 CE.
3) Another James was the son of Mary and Alphaeus/Cleophas, known as James the Less, another of Jesus' apostles.
Some confuse the James, as well as the Marys and the Johns.
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Incorrect. In the NT, one of the definitions for "ἀδελφός" (adelphos; plural ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (adelphē) are "kinsman" or "kinswoman":
A kinsman or kinswoman can refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, aunt, etc. In Matt. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi), and the context shows that the definition "kinsman" applies, but the information needed to determine whether they were His siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc., is lacking in those same verses.
You've yet to provide evidence that shows Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His siblings. However, I, in the opening post, provided evidence that those kinsmen were Jesus's cousins by showing they were the sons of Mary's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and that James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus, etc.
Note: nowhere in Scripture is it stated that Apostle James of Alphaeus and Apostle Matthew (Levi) of Alphaeus were brothers [siblings]. Of the twelve apostles, only Apostle Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus is called James's brother [sibling] (Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13). James and Matthew's (Levi) father's merely shared the name "Alphaeus".
The word used in Lk. 2:7 is "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos). Show it "explicitly means they are the first of at least two" in that verse.
The opening post shows the sisters Mary of Joseph and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) were sisters-in-law, as the latter was the wife of Alphaeus, Joseph's brother, and the mother of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus).
Mary, the mother of Jesus, had other sons and daughters.
Mary, the wife of Clopas/Cleophas/Alphaeus, another woman, had a son named James (the Less), and another one named Joses. The Bible does not say that these men were related to Jesus.
James the Less, the son of Clopas and the other Mary, was one of the twelve apostles (Matt. 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13).
James, the brother of the Lord, was not one of the twelve apostles, but was considered a pillar in the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' resurrection (Gal. 2:9; Acts 15:13).
Mary, the wife of Clopas/Cleophas/Alphaeus, another woman, had a son named James (the Less), and another one named Joses. The Bible does not say that these men were related to Jesus.
James the Less, the son of Clopas and the other Mary, was one of the twelve apostles (Matt. 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13).
James, the brother of the Lord, was not one of the twelve apostles, but was considered a pillar in the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' resurrection (Gal. 2:9; Acts 15:13).
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I need not- linguistic usage shows brothers is the primary meaning and unless is not applicable- applies.
Strongs, thayers and other lexicons do not list adelphe and adelphoi with a sub definition of kinsmen vis a vis- cousin.
G79 - adelphē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G79 - ἀδελφή adelphḗ, ad-el-fay'; feminine of ; a sister (naturally or ecclesiastically):—sister.
www.blueletterbible.org
these are citing all the major greek/English Concordances and Lexicons. someone is yanking your chain.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Go ask 100 people and get your answer.
Firstborn - Wikipedia
So show that Mary was barren after Jesus was born with Joseph regularly boinking her.
Also please show how Mary had a sister called Mary in her family.
The Bible clearly shows that when the four names of Jesus' brothers are mentioned, it is referring to the children of Mary who accompanied her, NOT the followers of Jesus.
Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.
John 2:12 After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days.
... 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.
Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.
1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?
Jesus' half-brothers (Iincluded his brother James) WERE NOT his followers when he lived.
BUT: James the Less was one of his apostles.
Christians do not allow ourselves to be confused by traditions that deny what is written. If the later writings on which the traditions are based were inspired, they would have been part of the Bible, but they are not...because they are not inspired by God and therefore not entirely reliable. The Bible is our God's inspired source of information, where we can be informed with certainty.
Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.
John 2:12 After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days.
... 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.
Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.
1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?
Jesus' half-brothers (Iincluded his brother James) WERE NOT his followers when he lived.
BUT: James the Less was one of his apostles.
Christians do not allow ourselves to be confused by traditions that deny what is written. If the later writings on which the traditions are based were inspired, they would have been part of the Bible, but they are not...because they are not inspired by God and therefore not entirely reliable. The Bible is our God's inspired source of information, where we can be informed with certainty.
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In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.
Lol, did you ask 100 people how the word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos) in Lk. 2:7 "explicitly means they are the first of at least two"?
If they don't then they need to, because the words "ἀδελφός" (adelphos; plural ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (adelphē) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen. That's why the following Greek dictionaries have "kinsman" as one of their definitions:
I never said Mary of Joseph was barren, but rather showed that Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Mary's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus were His cousins.
In the opening post, I showed that Mary of Joseph's sister Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was her sister-in-law, as the latter was the wife of Alphaeus, Joseph's brother, and the mother of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus).
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James, the son of Mary was:
the brother of the Lord, James the Just, the bishop of Jerusalem, the writer of the letter. He died 62 CE.
James, the son of Clephas and the other Mary was: one of the twelve apostles of Jesus, who followed him everywhere (Luke 6:15; Matt. 19:28).
In these two James you can realize the difference between the brothers of Jesus and his disciples, because:
1) one of them followed him and was his apostle (James the Less, son of Alphaeus/Cleophas and the other Mary),
2) and the other, his half brother, was not a Christian until after the death and resurrection of Jesus, although he held an important position in the Christian congregation in Jerusalem.
John 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.
Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
James the Less was not wanting to see him unable to get near, with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and standing outside. James the Less was Jesus' apostle and was with him. James, the son of Mary, was one of his brothers waiting outside with Mary.
Mark 3:21 But when his relatives heard about it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying: “He has gone out of his mind.”
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In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.
According to the Scriptures, your opening post is wrong.
James the Less (apostle) is one person,
...and James the Just (not apostle), the brother of Jesus and bishop of Jerusalem is a diferent person.
James the Less (apostle) is one person,
...and James the Just (not apostle), the brother of Jesus and bishop of Jerusalem is a diferent person.
Nope. Scripture doesnt show I'm wrong at all. In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.
Yes. Your opening post is still wrong, according to the Scriptures.
James the Less had one brother: Josés/José, the other son of Cleophas/Alphaeus and the other Mary. (Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:40,47)
James the brother of Jesus had three more brothers: Joseph, Judas and Simon, sons of Joseph and Mary. (Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3).
James the Less had one brother: Josés/José, the other son of Cleophas/Alphaeus and the other Mary. (Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:40,47)
James the brother of Jesus had three more brothers: Joseph, Judas and Simon, sons of Joseph and Mary. (Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3).
In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.
According to Scriptures and my other evidence, I'm not wrong. In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No, just how words are used and their implied meanings. First born has always been used to designate the first of at least 2 children.
and other than an OT usage of adelphos as kinsmen and writings several centuries removed with common names in Israel it is all assumption. Once again the NT shows no use of adelphis as kinsmen.
OT yes, NT, no! and which Greek dictionaries did you list for Youngs, Strongs , Thayer's do not give these definitions nor do bible hub, b;lue letter bible, Wuest give this definition.
So the bible made a mistake then. It called he marys sister when it should read, Mary, the sister of Jospeh, Marys husband. and all you proved isa that a few ancinet writers assumed that the brothers of Jesus in Matt. 13 belonged to the other Mary. but until you establish a named and recognized Greek dictionary (not just something called a greek dictionary) that the NT used adelphos as cousin in stead of the common and known word like "syngenes" your case is nonexistent given that Mary and Jospeh had sex, no evidence she was barren and in Nazareth where we have no evidence of anyt of Jesus relatives living there, the Pharisees named Joseph and Mary as mother and father and then name brothers and sisters of jesus along with his mom and dadand not "syngenes" (kinfolk)
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