Were they Jesus's siblings?

[Ronald Nolette]

I never admitted that. I said I've shown that the words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why the definitions "kinsman" or "kinswoman" are included in Mounce's and Liddell-Scott-Jones's Greek dictionaries, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't include them are incomplete.

In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3; James the brother of the Lord; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James the Less; James the Just; and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the cousins of Jesus.

So all that conceding on y0our part about Mary having sex was a lie then. OK be well. this thread is too big for me to go back and show you admitted it. Lying is unbecoming of you.

Bu ttime will tell. time to end this. Have the last word if you wish.

 

[Sigma]

So all that conceding on your part about Mary having sex was a lie then. OK be well. this thread is too big for me to go back and show you admitted it. Lying is unbecoming of you.

Why are you suddenly putting words in my mouth? Whether you explain why or not, people can go back through the thread and see for themselves I never said what you claim I did. The fact you resorted to lying in order to "win" this argument is only further confirmation I've spoken the truth.

I've shown that the words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why the definitions "kinsman" or "kinswoman" are included in Mounce's and Liddell-Scott-Jones's Greek dictionaries, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't include them are incomplete.

In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3; James the brother of the Lord; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James the Less; James the Just; and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the cousins of Jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why are you suddenly putting words in my mouth? Whether you explain why or not, people can go back through the thread and see for themselves I never said what you claim I did. The fact you resorted to lying in order to "win" this argument is only further confirmation I've spoken the truth.

I've shown that the words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have been used in the OT and NT to refer to kinsmen, which is why the definitions "kinsman" or "kinswoman" are included in Mounce's and Liddell-Scott-Jones's Greek dictionaries, and thus any Greek dictionaries that don't include them are incomplete.

In the opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3; James the brother of the Lord; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James the Less; James the Just; and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the cousins of Jesus.

read your posts 81 and 190. One is a strong implied Mary had sex and the other more direct you ceded the point.

Firstborn - Wikipedia​

Firstborn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A firstborn (also known as an eldest child or sometimes firstling) is the first child born to in the birth order of a couple through childbirth. Historically, the role of the firstborn child has been socially significant, particularly for a firstborn son in patriarchal societies. In law, many systems have incorporated the

Merriam-Webster:

firstborn​

adjective​

first·born ˈfərs(t)-ˈbȯrn

: first brought forth : ELDEST

first·born

ADJECTIVE

1. (of a person's child) the first to be born; the eldest:
   "his new album and his firstborn child are due in the same week"
   synonyms:
   oldest · first · big · biggest · most grown up
   
   
   
   
   
2. dictionary.com:
   
   
   

   firstborn​

   [ furst-bawrn ]SHOW IPA
   
   
   
   
   See synonyms for: firstborns on Thesaurus.com
   

   ---

   adjective
   1. first in the order of birth; eldest.
   noun
   1. a firstborn child.
   2. a first result or product.

Collins dictionary.com:


(fɜrstbɔrn )
SINGULAR NOUN [oft N n]
Someone's firstborn is their first child.
She was my firstborn.


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firstborn
From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born).

see GREEK protos

see GREEK tikto

Encyclopedia.com:

FIRSTBORN CHILDREN​

Many people believe that firstborn children, because of their privileged position in the family, behave differently than later-born children. Although parents, siblings, and nonparents probably overemphasize the influence of birth order, evidence suggests that the experiences of individuals are related to their ordinal position in the family.

Noone, nowhere says first born is the only child a couple ever have! they may be an only child for a time, until the second born, that is when teh adjective firstborn becomes valid.

Mary did not stay a virgin and Jesus had step brothers and sisters.


and thus endeth the conversation.

I am offline till teh 16th. Taking my wife on a much deserved vacation for her.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't need to read them because I know I never implied or conceded to that. Your replies to those posts even support I didn't. Why are you suddenly putting words in my mouth? Whether you explain why or not, people can go back through the thread and see for themselves I never said what you claim I did. Ask yourself, "If what I believe was really True, why did I need to resort to lying in order to "win"?



The word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos) or "firstborn" has more than one definition, and you've yet to show how the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7.

As I said we have beat this dead horse useless. We will allow eternity to show us whether your convoluted opinioned way of making Mary ever virgin and Jesus th eonly son is right or not.

 

[Sigma]

We will allow eternity to show us whether your convoluted opinioned way of making Mary ever virgin and Jesus th eonly son is right or not.

I've already proven Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus were Jesus's cousins. The only reason you can't accept that Truth is because you want to continue believing something else, to the point where you lied by putting words in my mouth saying I conceded to what you believe in order to "win". You're the fifth protestant in this thread who's put words in my mouth, whereas I haven't had to lie, because I've been speaking the Truth.

 

[ElieG12]

The error of the mariolatras can be seen when we notice that:

James the Less, the son of Cleophas/Alphaeus and the other Mary was ONE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES (Matt. 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13).
James, the brother of the Lord, was not one of the twelve apostles, but was considered a pillar in the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' resurrection (Gal. 2:9; Acts 15:13).

It is clear enough that the James who was an apostle of Jesus, the son of Cleophas, IS NOT the same James who was the son of Mary (Jesus' mother), because the son of Mary was not a follower of Jesus until after Jesus was resurrected and appeared to him, and the other one was a follower of Jesus from the beginning:

Matt. 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus; and Thaddaeus;
Mark 3:18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananaean,
Luke 6:15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaus, Simon who is called “the zealous one”

If the son of Alphaeus was an apostle and the half-brother of Jesus was not, it is because they are two different James, and one of them is called "the brother of the Lord", while the other is called "the son of Alphaeus".

 

[Sigma]

The error of the mariolatras can be seen when we notice that:

James the Less, the son of Cleophas/Alphaeus and the other Mary was ONE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES (Matt. 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13).
James, the brother of the Lord, was not one of the twelve apostles, but was considered a pillar in the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' resurrection (Gal. 2:9; Acts 15:13).

It is clear enough that the James who was an apostle of Jesus, the son of Cleophas, IS NOT the same James who was the son of Mary (Jesus' mother), because the son of Mary was not a follower of Jesus until after Jesus was resurrected and appeared to him, and the other one was a follower of Jesus from the beginning:

Matt. 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus; and Thaddaeus;
Mark 3:18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananaean,
Luke 6:15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaus, Simon who is called “the zealous one”

If the son of Alphaeus was an apostle and the half-brother of Jesus was not, it is because they are two different James, and one of them is called "the brother of the Lord", while the other is called "the son of Alphaeus".

The word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. The opening post shows how the apostle James of Alphaeus, the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, the James in Gal. 1:19, James the bishop of Jerusalem, etc., were the same person, and that he was Jesus's cousin.

 

[ElieG12]

While one James, James the Less, the son of Alphaeus, followed Jesus as one of his apostles ...
the other James, son of Mary and half-brother of Jesus, did not believe in him.

For example here, James the Less was not wanting to see him unable to get near, with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and standing outside. James the Less was Jesus' apostle and was with him. James, the son of Mary, was one of his brothers waiting outside with Mary:

Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

John 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

Mark 3:21 But when his relatives heard about it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying: “He has gone out of his mind.”

 

[Sigma]

For example here, James the Less was not wanting to see him unable to get near, with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and standing outside. James the Less was Jesus' apostle and was with him. James, the son of Mary, was one of his brothers waiting outside with Mary:

Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

The scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.

There's no mention of the name "James" in all of Luke chapter 8 actually. The word "adelphoi" is used in Lk. 8:19-20 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Lk. 8:19-20, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you need to show it does. How are you going to do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

I know they weren't Jesus's siblings from Jesus Himself who showed Maria Valtorta that scene in full, and she wrote down what she saw and heard. From her scriptural writings I know Jesus's brothers in Lk. 8:19-20 who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436).

John 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

The word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". The word in itself doesn't indicate which of its definitions applies to it in Jn. 7:3;5.

We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Jn. 7:3;5, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you need to show it does. How are you going to do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

I know they weren't Jesus's siblings from Jesus Himself who showed Maria Valtorta that scene in full, and she wrote down what she saw and heard. From her scriptural writings I know Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:3;5 were two of His kinsmen, specifically two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who at that time were unbelievers, though they later came to believe (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, ch. 476, pp. 249-253).

Mark 3:21 But when his relatives heard about it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying: “He has gone out of his mind.”

Relatives could be siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. What evidence do you have its Jesus's siblings being referred to in Mk. 3:21?

 

[ElieG12]

The biblical account:

The brother of Jesus, the son of Mary the mother of Jesus, was outside with his mother longing to see Jesus (Luke 8:19-21),
while the son of Alphaeus and "the other Mary" (Matt. 27:56 ,61; 28:1) who had already been selected as an apostle (Luke 6:13-16) was inside with him, listening to him and learning from him.

Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.

John 2:12 After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days.
... 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?

You are clinging to a lie that the Bible exposes because you want to worship a supposed "mother of God" who is a pagan goddess.

 

[Sigma]

Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", etc.

We agree the context of Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 shows the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and unnamed sisters, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, aunt, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

As for me, in my opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins of Jesus.

John 2:12 After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days.

The word "adelphoi" is used in Lk. 8:19-20 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Lk. 8:19-20, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

The brothers in Jn. 2:12 were two of Jesus's four cousins, James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus, and the disciples were Peter and Andrew, all of whom, who at that time had not yet been elected apostles, accompanied Jesus and His mother to Capernaum. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 51, pp. 160-161)

Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd.
20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

The word "adelphoi" is used in Lk. 8:19-20 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Lk. 8:19-20, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

I know they weren't Jesus's siblings from Jesus Himself who showed Maria Valtorta that scene in full, and she wrote down what she saw and heard. From her scriptural writings I know Jesus's brothers in Lk. 8:19-20 who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436).

Jn. 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

The word "adelphoi" is used in Jn. 7:5 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman".

We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Jn. 7:3;5, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

I know Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:5 weren't His siblings from Jesus Himself who showed Maria Valtorta that scene in full, and she wrote down what she saw and heard. From her scriptural writings I know Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:3;5 were two of His kinsmen, specifically two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who at that time were unbelievers, though they later came to believe (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, ch. 476, pp. 249-253).

Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

The word "adelphoi" is used in Lk. 8:19-20 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". Jesus's brothers in Ac. 1:14 couldn't have been the apostles because of v. 13, nor those you believe to have been Jesus's siblings, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), because I've proven they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus were Jesus's cousins. So, that means they could've only been some of Jesus's disciples.

1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?

The "brothers of the Lord" in 1. Cor. 9:5 were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus, who were also Jesus's cousins. It's not a problem they were mentioned seperately from "the rest of the apostles", because notice in the verse it also says "rest of the apostles and Cephas". We know the apostle Peter was also called "Cephas", yet he's mentioned individually from the other apostles as well, though still one of the apostles.

 

[ElieG12]

The terms denoting familial relationships are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the called NT:

1) a distinct term for cousin, ἀνεψιός, is used in Col. 4:10.
2) our words for nephew/niece are expressed with the expression "the child of someone's sibling" like in Acts 23:16.
3) συγγενής is a general term to mean relative, like in Luke 21:16.

Making others believe that Scripture is ambiguous in familial terms in order to hold on to a lie is nothing short of dishonest.

 

[Sigma]

The terms denoting familial relationships are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the called NT:

1) a distinct term for cousin, ἀνεψιός, is used in Col. 4:10.
2) our words for nephew/niece are expressed with the expression "the child of someone's sibling" like in Acts 23:16.
3) συγγενής is a general term to mean relative, like in Luke 21:16.

Making others believe that Scripture is ambiguous in familial terms in order to hold on to a lie is nothing short of dishonest.

The verses you've been quoting specifically use the word "ἀδελφοὶ" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", etc. A kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

 

[ElieG12]

False.

The brother of Jesus, the son of Mary the mother of Jesus, was outside with his mother longing to see Jesus

Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd. 20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

... while the son of Alphaeus and "the other Mary" (Matt. 27:56 ,61; 28:1) who had already been selected as an apostle was inside with him, listening to him and learning from him.

Luke 6:12 On one of those days he went out to the mountain to pray, and he spent the whole night in prayer to God. 13 And when it became day, he called his disciples to him and chose from among them 12, whom he also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he also named Peter, Andrew his brother, James, John, Philip, Bartholo·mew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who is called “the zealous one,” 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who turned traitor.

Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.

John 2:12 After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days.
... 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?

 

[Sigma]

Luke 8:19 Now his mother and brothers came to him, but they were unable to get near him because of the crowd. 20 So it was reported to him: “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 In reply he said to them: “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

... while the son of Alphaeus and "the other Mary" (Matt. 27:56 ,61; 28:1) who had already been selected as an apostle was inside with him, listening to him and learning from him.

The word "adelphoi" is used in Lk. 8:19-20 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers in Lk. 8:19-20, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

The brothers in Jn. 2:12 were two of Jesus's four cousins, James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus, and the disciples were Peter and Andrew, all of whom, who at that time had not yet been elected apostles, accompanied Jesus and His mother to Capernaum. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 51, pp. 160-161)

Among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. (Matt. 27:56)

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. (Jn. 19:25)

These two verses show there was a total of four women present at the cross: Mary of Joseph and Her sister Mary of Cleophas, Mary Magdalene, and the mother of the apostles John and James of Zebedee. In the opening post, Mary of Cleophas is shown to have been the sister-in-law of Mary of Joseph, because she was the wife of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, as well as the mother of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) mentioned in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. Two of those sons of hers are mentioned in Matt. 27:56.

Luke 6:12 On one of those days he went out to the mountain to pray, and he spent the whole night in prayer to God. 13 And when it became day, he called his disciples to him and chose from among them 12, whom he also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he also named Peter, Andrew his brother, James, John, Philip, Bartholo·mew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who is called “the zealous one,” 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who turned traitor.

The opening post shows the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus were the sons of Alphaeus who was Joseph's brother, which is why they were Jesus's cousins.

Matthew 12:46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.
... 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mark 6:3 This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him.

The words "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "ἀδελφή" (sing. adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai) have multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", etc. We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and unnamed sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, aunt, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

As for me, in my opening post, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins of Jesus.

Jn. 7:5 His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.

The word "adelphoi" is used in Jn. 7:5 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:3;5, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you haven't shown it does, because how can you do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.

I know Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:5 weren't His siblings from Jesus Himself who showed Maria Valtorta that scene in full, and she wrote down what she saw and heard. From her scriptural writings I know Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:3;5 were two of His kinsmen, specifically two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who at that time were unbelievers, though they later came to believe. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, ch. 476, pp. 249-253)

Acts 1:14 With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

The word "adelphoi" is used and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman". Jesus's brothers in Ac. 1:14 couldn't have been the apostles because of v. 13, nor those you believe to have been Jesus's siblings, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), because I've proven they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus were Jesus's cousins. So, that means they could've only been some of Jesus's disciples.

1 Cor. 9:5 We have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the rest of the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas, do we not?

The "brothers of the Lord" in 1. Cor. 9:5 were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus, who were also Jesus's cousins. It's not a problem they were mentioned seperately from "the rest of the apostles", because notice in the same verse it also says "the rest of the apostles and Cephas". We know the apostle Peter was also called "Cephas", yet he's mentioned individually from the other apostles as well, though still one of the apostles.

 

[ElieG12]

That's a lie: ἀδελφός DOES NOT mean cousin.

The terms denoting familial relationships are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the called NT:

1) a distinct term for cousin, ἀνεψιός, is used in Col. 4:10.
2) our words for nephew/niece are expressed with the expression "the child of someone's sibling" like in Acts 23:16.
3) συγγενής is a general term to mean relative, like in Luke 21:16.

Making others believe that Scripture is ambiguous in familial terms in order to hold on to a lie is nothing short of dishonest.

 

[Sigma]

That's a lie: ἀδελφός DOES NOT mean cousin.

Again, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "kinsman" and a male kinsman can refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

The evidence in the opening post shows Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's brothers as in kinsmen, specifically His cousins, because they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas).

 

[ElieG12]

About the Greek word ἀδελφός, the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains _ Louw-Nida, says:

LN.10.49 ἀδελφός, οῦ m: a male having the same father and mother as the reference person—‘brother.’ εἶδεν δύο ἀδελφούς, Σίμωνα τὸν λεγόμενον Πέτρον καὶ Ἀνδρέαν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ ‘he saw two brothers, Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew’ Mt 4:18. In a number of languages it is necessary to indicate the difference between older and younger brothers, and this can usually be done on the basis of Semitic usage, since the older brother was normally named first. Therefore, in Mt 4:18 one may translate ‘Simon and his younger brother Andrew.’

The interpretation of ἀδελφός in such passages as Mt 12:46; Mk 3:31; and Jn 2:12 as meaning ‘cousins’ (on the basis of a corresponding Hebrew term, which is used in certain cases to designate masculine relatives of various degrees) is not attested in Greek nor affirmed in the Greek-English lexicon edited by Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker. Such an interpretation depends primarily on ecclesiastical tradition.

Though the plural of ἀδελφός (namely, ἀδελφοί) can mean both ‘brothers and sisters,’ there is no reason to believe that in Mt 12:46; Mk 3:31; Jn 2:12; 7:3, 5; and Ac 1:14 the reference is to both brothers and sisters.

SO, it is a fact that this supposed meaning of ἀδελφός as cousin is false. The Catholics' pretext is that there is a Hebrew word that can have both meanings... but the reality is that it has never been attested in Greek that the word for brother can be used to mean cousin.

 

[Sigma]

SO, it is a fact that this supposed meaning of ἀδελφός as cousin is false.

Again, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "kinsman":

Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: ἀδελφός, -οῦ, ὁ
Greek transliteration: adelphos
Simplified transliteration: adelphos

Numbers
Strong's number: 80
GK Number: 81

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 343
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: n-2a

Gloss:
brother, fellow countryman, neighbor (often inclusive in gender); by extension a fellow believer in the family of faith; in the plural brothers regularly refers to men and women

Definition:
a brother, near kinsman, or relative; one of the same nation or nature; one of equal rank and dignity; an associate, a member of the Christian community

A kinsman can refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. The Septuagint translators, for example, substituted the Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) in Gen. 13:8 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) and "אָח" ('âch) in Gen 14:14 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Abraham and Lot, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ Μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου. ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν." (Gen. 13:8) and "ἀκούσας δὲ Αβραμ ὅτι ᾐχμαλώτευται Λωτ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, ἠρίθμησεν τοὺς ἰδίους οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, τριακοσίους δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ, καὶ κατεδίωξεν ὀπίσω αὐτῶν ἕως Δαν." (Gen. 14:14)

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אָח" ('âch) in Gen. 29:15 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Jacob and Laban, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "Εἶπε δὲ Λάβαν τῷ ᾿Ιακώβ· ὅτι γὰρ ἀδελφός μου εἶ, οὐ δουλεύσεις μοι δωρεάν· ἀπάγγειλόν μοι, τίς ὁ μισθός σου ἐστί;" (Gen. 29:15

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אחים" ('âchiem) in 1 Chr. 23:21–22 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) to show it was kin the daughters of Eleazar married, which lineage shows was their cousins: "καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ελεαζαρ, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ υἱοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ θυγατέρες, καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὰς υἱοὶ Κις ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν." (1 Chr. 23:22)

As you can see, one of the definitions of the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) is "kinsman," and it can be used to refer to a sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are called Jesus's "brothers," or "ἀδελφός" (adelphos). The context in this verse shows they were His kinsmen. However, information needed to determine the type of kinship, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in those same verses and others.

In the opening post, I provided evidence that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, and shows that the type of kinship between them and Jesus was that of cousins, because I showed they were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas). This was accomplished primarily by identifying James.

 

[ElieG12]

Cleophas and his wife Mary ("the other Mary") are credited with two sons in the Bible: James the Less, and Joses (Matt. 27:56).

Mary, who is almost always mentioned accompanying "the brothers of Jesus" (except in John 7:3,5) is attributed with 4 more children: James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon.

Note that Cleophas' son is called Joses (Mark 15:40,47), and Jesus' brother is called Joseph, a different name ... To verify this diference you should see in a Greek NT. Besides, Cleophas' son is James the Less (the nick is to diferenciate him from the other James), while Jesus' brother is called simply James, "the brother of the Lord." (Gal. 1:19).

They are two diferent families. Catholics lie ... purposely?