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What am I? Calvinist...or Arminian? Or something in between?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by brakelite, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I am going to present some scriptures and my understanding of them and would like you all to discern which side of the divide I fall. I will do this in ten sections, beginning with a heading to each section with what I believe is the key scripture.
    But God commendeth His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Romans 5:8
    2 Corinthians 5:14,15.
    Hebrews 2:9
    John 11:11-13
    1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
    Matthew 3:17
    John 4:42
    1 Timothy 4:10
    2 Timothy1:10
    John 3:16-19
    Romans 5:15-18

    Christ has already died the second death for every man, thus has elected every man to be saved, thus in that sense, He has saved the whole world. It is not the "sleep of death" but the death of wrath that we are saved from. We are accepted in Him, thus He is the Savior of the world, especially to those that believe. Our salvation therefore does not depend on our initiating a relationship with Christ, but in responding in faith to the relationship initiated by God. Christ has abolished the second death. Only our unbelief can cause us to be lost. Salvation is our birthright.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    You may notice that some scriptures are repeated because the emphasise different aspects of the gospel or the points I am presenting.
    Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
    John 6:32,33,35,50-53
    2 Corinthians 5:19
    Isaiah 53:5,6
    Hebrews 10:29
    2 Corinthians 6:1
    1 John 2:2
    John 3:16,18
    Romans 8:33-39
    Romans 5:16-18
    2 Corinthians 5:14,15
    Romans 4:1-10
    Romans 3:19-31 (esp 24)
    By His uplifted cross and ongoing ministry as High Priest, Christ is drawing all men to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost. All present joys and blessings are due to the cross of Christ, without which man would have long ago perished. Christ died for the ungodly. If it were not so: if we needed credentials, qualifications, or works, then it would no longer be a free gift. As all were in Adam, and were under condemnation, so now are we all in Christ. Since He paid the price for all our sins, the only reason anyone can be lost is refusal to believe, to appreciate, the gift already given "in Him". Thus Paul asks, "how can He lay that iniquity on Him again"?
    When we as a people...as a church...have received the blessing of Abraham, imputed righteousness, what then? The latter rain? What then could be hindering the outpouring of the holy Spirit if not our unbelief? It is our unbelief that holds back the righteousness of Christ, which comes by faith, and which holds back the latter rain. Even the sins of our enemies were laid upon Christ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Christ did not die the second death.

    Bible says no one suffers the second death until the white throne judgment.

    And that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.

    As well there is no such thing as soul sleep.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    So far it looks like something in between. You may need to clarify some of your thoughts with actual Scriptures supporting them.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I am what used to be known as Secure Arminianism.

    It means total free will in coming to God and then repenting. That results in predestined security all the way to glorification. As shown in Romans 8.

    Once we are born again we are changed the way that we would never leave God or even think about wanting to leave God.

    Just like those who commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or Die unsaved are changed in a different way that would never come to God.

    That is not Calvinism because it is done in free will. Or Arminianism Because we never leave.
     
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  6. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Even the redeemed die the first death, therefore it must be the second death we are saved from.
    Indeed. Some may wonder why this game? Well, it's because I'm tired of seeing so many debates with the attitude that "my scriptures trump yours therefore my doctrine is the correct one"...with the other side saying "you don't believe my scriptures therefore you're going to hell" etc etc. As if the scriptures contradict each other and "prove" opposite arguments. My tact here is to try and present scriptures that both sides of the debate have used historically to "prove" their position, and thus showing that rather than opposing each other, the scriptures complement one another. But however, I am not trying to "prove" my position either. This is meant to be a Bible study, not a dissertation on any particular denominational or sectarian perspective. Alternative views are welcome so long as they are presented in such a way that combined with the rest
    scripture we may to some agreement rather than two extreme views battling with one another.
    PS. Please do not mistake this as some subtle form of ecumenicist union promotion.
     
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  7. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.
    It is easy to be saved, and hard to be lost if one understands and believes how good the good news truly is. The only difficult thing is learning how to believe the gospel.
    John 3:16,17
    Mark 9:23
    Romans 10:10
    Matthew 11:28
    Acts 9:5; 26:14
    Romans 6: 1,2,14,15
    2 Corinthians 5:14
    Psalm 27:10; 103:13
    John 16:7-11
    John 1:5,9
    Romans 5:20; 1-10
    Galatians 5:16,17
    Romans 2:4
    Jesus taught that belief is the most difficult thing. God does the loving and the giving, our part is to do the believing. "My yoke is easy, My burden light". and to resist is to "kick against the goads"...which is hard. The love of Christ "constraineth us"...it is an active love...a believer in the gospel cannot continue to live for self. Christ's love for each individual is far greater than a parent for a child. To kick against the goads is to resist the holy Spirit's conviction of good news. Light greater than darkness...grace greater than sin...holy Spirit greater than flesh. God is leading each person to repentance, but many refuse His leading. There is way far greater power in grace than there is in sin. The power of grace is the power of creation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with you and call it Biblicism.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    While your approach is commendable, I do not believe that the two theologies can be reconciled. Calvinists and Arminians both distort Scriptures to support their idea.

    If we wish to go strictly by Scripture here is what we will see:

    1. All human beings are sinners, and all need to be saved by grace through faith. None can save themselves by their own righteousness.

    2. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and all may be saved if all will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore none are elected for either salvation or damnation.

    3. The Gospel must go out into all the world and to every creature. And whosoever will may take of the Water of Life freely.

    4. The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, therefore when the Gospel is preached, saving faith is generated, and all may have such faith. At the same time the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners, draws them to Christ, and brings them to repentance.

    5. Obedience to the Gospel is a choice. Some will believe while others will not. Those who believe must be baptized immediately or almost immediately.

    6. No one can be saved (justified) by good works or the works of the Law.

    7. Those who are saved are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, and predestined to be glorified. Therefore they cannot lose their salvation.
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    My motive is not to reconcile the two extremes, but to show that the scriptures that each extreme uses is as you say, distorted and abused, not because those scriptures aren't believed in, but because the scriptures presented by the opposition aren't believed in. Rather than scriptures that presumably oppose, and thus ignoring the opositions scriptures because they are deemed contradictory to ones opinion, those scriptures should be welcomed because all scripture on any one topic adds to the truth....all scripture complements scripture....thus what each side of the debate is in effect revealing by their attitude is that both sides are not only lacking in understanding, but deliberately rejecting light in order to substantiate and support their bias. It is so very dangerous to reject light on any subject because you are in effect rejecting the Father of Light. Once light is rejected, why should you expect to receive any more? I think such a case was to be found in the reformation when each subsequent reformer's followers refused to accept any subsequent reformation in their religion. Lutherans rejected the Calvinists...Calvinists rejected the Wesleyans...the Wesleyans rejected the Baptists...everyone rejects the Adventists...and the Pentecostals reject all the former reformers and are going back to Rome.
    Today, the reformation has to be fought all over again.
     
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  11. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Behold, I Stand at the Door and Knock...
    Luke 15:1-10
    Psalms 119:176
    Ezekiel 34:16
    Jeremiah 31:3
    John 3:16-19
    Revelation 3:20
    Hebrews 2:9
    Isaiah 49:15
    Luke 19:10
    Romans 8:28
    Philippians 1:6
    Christ is the good Shepherd who is seeking and saving His lost sheep, even though we have not sought Him. A misunderstanding of the character of God causes us to think that He is trying to hide from us. Or that He is too austere, stern, angry, unapproachable that we need special holy people such as His mother, or saints etc to talk to Him in our stead. Yet there is no parable of a lost sheep that must seek and find its shepherd.
    If anyone is saved at last it will be wholly due to God's initiative: and if anyone is lost at last, it will be wholly due to their own initiative. Our salvation does not depend on our maintaining a relationship with God, but rather it depends on our believing that He stands at the door and knocks, seeking to maintain His relationship with us...unless we break it off. God has torn down the wall between God and man; it is man the rebuilds it again. The Master Workman will continue His work. As we have confidence in Him, He will finish that which He has begun.
     
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  12. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    What books of the Bible did John Calvin write? And which ones did Martin Luther write?

    1 Cor 1:11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas ”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  13. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    In the context of the reformation when God was bringing light and understanding to the world after centuries of darkness and ignorant superstition, God needed men that He could use to teach the people. Each reformer brought light to truths long forgotten or distorted. The sad thing is was that it took so long for Protestantism to recognise
    a. Not all truth was bound up in one man; while they recognised past light, they rejected new light.
    b. Freedom of conscience
    c. If all the light came at once through just one man no-one would have accepted any of it.
     
  14. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Hello brakelight,

    It is good to see you discussing Scripture, and offering up passages as to your understanding of salvation through Christ.

    Now, I would like to have more clarity on two of your statements above:

    1) "Only our unbelief can cause us to be lost."

    - I am certain the above is not as clear as it could be, as all outside of Christ are lost prior to hearing the Gospel, and are lost in their sins. Unbelief did not cause us to be lost, it is simply the state of those already lost.

    2) "Salvation is our birthright."

    - Would have to totally disagree with the above statement. Perhaps more clarity or a retraction would help.
     
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  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This is salvation for the self-righteous only. God saves those who cannot believe in Christ, turning them into believers.
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    More Calvinisitic nonsense. The preaching of the Gospel (with the Spirit in control) is in order to enable sinners to believe. This is so basic that even a child would understand. So Calvinists are blind to the very fundamentals of our faith.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
     
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  18. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    These debates on this subject between Christians often become nasty including name calling and accusations of lying. To a nonbeliever it just highlights that the bible is contradictory even on the fundamentals of salvation. No doubt Enoch111 and Dave L will both say that they have the correct interpretation of scripture and never acknowledge that it actually says both. It cannot be reconciled and that is why it is not reconciled. This is evidence that it is not inspired by god in my opinion.

    These are in contradiction by the plain reading. One says when they were appointed to eternal life then they believed, the other says if you call on the lord then you will be saved. These verses represent many verses that contradict each other on this important issue. Why does god let this happen if he truly wants all to be saved?

     
  19. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    ...Good one Brake .. Thumb.gif
     
  20. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    I have understood 1 Corinthians 15:22 namely, 'for as in Adam all die so in Christ all will be made alive' to mean what brakelite has said ie, salvation is our birthright.
    Now not to confuse context and birthright I think it is in order to understand that both the 'birthright' of death in Adam had nothing to do with us personally, so also the birthright of Salvation in Jesus had nothing to do with us personally. Both these birthrights where achieved/accomplished before we were born. In other words, what was lost beyond our control was redeemed beyond our control.

    This is Good News beyond expectation. We can however refuse what was purchased for us by unbelief just as the Hebrews refused entry into the promised land....that generation died in the desert.....that generation is a testimony to us that when God says go in because it is your birthright (as per the promise) and we refuse, we will die in the desert so to speak. Consider how Hebrews draws these parallels in chapter 3.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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