What and when is the rapture part two?

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Timtofly

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Why do these people think paradise can be in Hades? Is heaven inside of the lake of fire?
Why do people think souls are still dead and buried at all?

A soul without a body in Paradise is saying the same thing as a soul in Abraham's bosom. They may as well be still in Abraham's bosom. The whole purpose of the Resurrection and the Life, was to enjoy Paradise physically.

Souls floating around Paradise did not make sense in the OT, and it sure does not make sense in the NT. Christ the firstfruits meant all of the OT are physically enjoying Paradise with physical Jesus. So has every other soul since then, been enjoying Paradise physically.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No, that's not at all what I was saying and you know it.

The paradise Paul saw was the same paradise that Jesus went to when He died and that was not Hades. That is the point. It seems like you forgot what this discussion was about.


Well I don't know what you are even talking about. YOu seem to muddle everything.

Paradise was in hades- which is simply the land of the dead! There was Abrahams bosom, AKA paradise in hades. It was filled with righteous souls who were saved but had to wait until Jesus poured His blood on the mercy seat in heaven to actually go to heaven! Jesus performed the duties of high priest and poured the blood of the passover lamb onto the mercy seat- just in heaven.

YOu say the thief went straight to heaven when he died and Jesus met HIm in paradise which is heaven. So according to your words, when Jesus died, He went to heaven spirtually wjhile his body was in the tomb.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Why do these people think paradise can be in Hades? Is heaven inside of the lake of fire?


The reason you say that is trhat you have a very common misconception of what Hades was until Jesus ascended! YOu think it is solely a place of punishment. It is now, since Abrahams Bosom/Paradise was emptied and closed. Now Hades/Sheol/ Hell/ Grave is composed of two places only. Tartarus, the place where the angels who had sex with women are in chains, and the place of torments what many call hell, where th lost should go and await being cast into the lake of fire.

But until Pentecost, when the church was born, when a righteous person died, their soul went to Abrahams Bosom/Paradise, which was not in heaven,
but was a third compartment of the underworld/sheol/ grave/ hades/ hell.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why do these people think paradise can be in Hades? Is heaven inside of the lake of fire?
Well, it's just one person saying that as far as I can tell. But, maybe others believe that as well. Why? I really have no idea. I haven't seen any explanation given for it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well I don't know what you are even talking about.
And I don't know what you're talking about, so the feeling is mutual.

Paradise was in hades- which is simply the land of the dead! There was Abrahams bosom, AKA paradise in hades. It was filled with righteous souls who were saved but had to wait until Jesus poured His blood on the mercy seat in heaven to actually go to heaven! Jesus performed the duties of high priest and poured the blood of the passover lamb onto the mercy seat- just in heaven.
Again, Paul equated paradise with the third heaven. So, that is where Jesus and the thief on the cross went when they died.

YOu say the thief went straight to heaven when he died and Jesus met HIm in paradise which is heaven. So according to your words, when Jesus died, He went to heaven spirtually wjhile his body was in the tomb.
Exactly.
 

Ronald Nolette

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And I don't know what you're talking about, so the feeling is mutual.

Again, Paul equated paradise with the third heaven. So, that is where Jesus and the thief on the cross went when they died.

Exactly.

Yes Paul did, so it is possible that Abrahms Bosom instead of simply shutting down was brought up to heaven. The Bible doesn't say specifically so I won't equivocate.

Butr if you look at Pauls utterance on this, look closely at the little words. Specifically "to" and "into". Paul was caught up to teh 3rd heaven, and in the thrid heaven he was brought into Paradise which is in the third heaven. But if you study the grammatics you will see Paul did not equate heaven with paradise but implied by grammar that paradise is within the 3rd heaven.

and Jesus could not have ascended to heaven when he died!

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus had ascended to heaven spiritually before He told Mary this- He lied!!! specially when Peter clearly shows Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison.

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Unless you are trying to tell us that heaven is also called a prison.

No, Jesus understood paradise as also being called Abrahams Bosom where the righteous souls went awaiting Jesus to pour His blood on the heavenly mercy seat . I posted several Jewish references showing that Paradise was also called Abrhams Bosom in the culture of Jesus day.
 

Timtofly

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and Jesus could not have ascended to heaven when he died!
The thief was with God and the Holy Spirit in Paradise. God was on the Cross as much as Jesus' body. Jesus was God. The Father did not forsake the Son. The Father was right there as well.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes Paul did, so it is possible that Abrahms Bosom instead of simply shutting down was brought up to heaven. The Bible doesn't say specifically so I won't equivocate.

Butr if you look at Pauls utterance on this, look closely at the little words. Specifically "to" and "into". Paul was caught up to teh 3rd heaven, and in the thrid heaven he was brought into Paradise which is in the third heaven. But if you study the grammatics you will see Paul did not equate heaven with paradise but implied by grammar that paradise is within the 3rd heaven.
I disagree with what you're saying here, but even if it was true, it would still mean paradise is not in Hades.

and Jesus could not have ascended to heaven when he died!
Not bodily. You understand that I'm saying His spirit went there and not that He went there bodily, right?

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
He was talking about ascending BODILY to heaven there, so you are proving nothing by referencing this verse.

If Jesus had ascended to heaven spiritually before He told Mary this- He lied!!!
No, He didn't because He was only talking about ascending BODILY there.

specially when Peter clearly shows Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison.

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Unless you are trying to tell us that heaven is also called a prison.
You are badly misinterpreting this passage, but you're not alone in that. This is not saying that Jesus went to Hades to preach to people. When someone dies, that's it. There are no second chances! Scripture never teaches such a thing! What that passage is saying is that He had formerly preached to them who then in prison while they were still alive via the Holy Spirit. It's the same kind of concept that Paul wrote about here:

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Can you see here how Paul said the Old Testament fathers "drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ"? He wasn't there physically with them, but He preached to them through the Holy Spirit. He preached to everyone that way, but some rejected the truth, so they ended up in Hades. And nowhere does scripture teach that they would get a second chance after that.

No, Jesus understood paradise as also being called Abrahams Bosom where the righteous souls went awaiting Jesus to pour His blood on the heavenly mercy seat . I posted several Jewish references showing that Paradise was also called Abrhams Bosom in the culture of Jesus day.
Paul equated paradise with the third heaven, so that's where paradise was after Christ's death. His death is what allowed all of those in Abraham's bosom to be taken from there to paradise/the third heaven.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Not bodily. You understand that I'm saying His spirit went there and not that He went there bodily, right?

So you believe heaven is a prison then.
Because Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who were sometimes disobedient. Okay- I disagree!

Paul equated paradise with the third heaven, so that's where paradise was after Christ's death. His death is what allowed all of those in Abraham's bosom to be taken from there to paradise/the third heaven.

We will never agree on this! I came to the conclusion based on the language used by the Inspired writers and not commentary like you offer.

Time to end this. We shall not see eye to eye here.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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So you believe heaven is a prison then.
Because Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who were sometimes disobedient. Okay- I disagree!
They were in prison at the time Peter wrote that, but Jesus preached to them via the Holy Spirit when they were still alive. Peter was not saying Jesus went to preach to them when He died. You believe in a false doctrine of second chances after death, but scripture never teaches such a thing.

We will never agree on this! I came to the conclusion based on the language used by the Inspired writers and not commentary like you offer.

Time to end this. We shall not see eye to eye here.
I came to my conclusion for the same reason, so it's clearly not a case of one of us accepting what they wrote and one not. It's a case of each of us interpreting what they said differently. Anyway, I'm fine to agree to disagree on this since we obviously both will never change our views on this.