What and when is the rapture part two?

[Marty fox]

What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to Revelation

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:12-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell.

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Remember these verses Jesus said in Luke 16:21-27 about the dead rich man. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

No one teaches Christ only reigns for a thousand years. This is an Amillennial created strawman fallacy. It's the rod of iron rule over the nations that only lasts a thousand years.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to Revelation

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:12-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell.

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Remember these verses Jesus said in Luke 16:21-27 about the dead rich man. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

You are not the first to propose this with this evidence and you won't be the last.

Teh rapture has to occur before the tribulation starts ! Reason? Rev. 6 says the trib is the wrath of God and the Lamb! And Paul in Thess. said we are not appointed to wrath but to be delivered from the wrath to come!

the lake of fire is never called Gods wrath, but teh trib period or the 70th week of Daniel, those seven years are most definitely called the wrath of God!

 

[Marty fox]

You are not the first to propose this with this evidence and you won't be the last.

Teh rapture has to occur before the tribulation starts ! Reason? Rev. 6 says the trib is the wrath of God and the Lamb! And Paul in Thess. said we are not appointed to wrath but to be delivered from the wrath to come!

the lake of fire is never called Gods wrath, but teh trib period or the 70th week of Daniel, those seven years are most definitely called the wrath of God!

Of course the church isn't under the wrath but there is a difference between the wrath of God and the persecution of the saints. The lake of fire also isn't God wrath but Gods judgement

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to Revelation

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:12-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell.

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Remember these verses Jesus said in Luke 16:21-27 about the dead rich man. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

All the scriptures speak about is the resurrection not a rapture. Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians about the resurrection not a rapture. I don't know what others will choose to believe but I'm not going to deny the resurrection Paul spoke about to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. No other scriptures will contradict the resurrection Paul spoke about.

 

[Marty fox]

All the scriptures speak about is the resurrection not a rapture. Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians about the resurrection not a rapture. I don't know what others will choose to believe but I'm not going to deny the resurrection Paul spoke about to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. No other scriptures will contradict the resurrection Paul spoke about.

I wouldn't deny it either and I don't. My point is that the resurrection happens at the rapture.

1 corrinthians 15:35-55

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I wouldn't deny it either and I don't. My point is that the resurrection happens at the rapture.

1 corrinthians 15:35-55

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

There is no rapture spoken about in the scriptures. None of the scriptures in Thessalonians or Corinthians or any other scriptures in the Bible talk about a rapture.
From everything that other people have explained to me about the Rapture they believe in is that they believe some people will disappear off the planet without dying. This is completely opposite of the resurrection. In Thessalonians and Corinthians when any scripture in these books of the Bible speak of the resurrection all those scriptures in those books speaking of the resurrection must remain in that context, taking them out of that context then you're speaking of something other than the resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no rapture spoken about in the scriptures.

Yes there is. It's the Greek word "harpazo". It means to rapture.

 

[Marty fox]

There is no rapture spoken about in the scriptures. None of the scriptures in Thessalonians or Corinthians or any other scriptures in the Bible talk about a rapture.
From everything that other people have explained to me about the Rapture they believe in is that they believe some people will disappear off the planet without dying. This is completely opposite of the resurrection. In Thessalonians and Corinthians when any scripture in these books of the Bible speak of the resurrection all those scriptures in those books speaking of the resurrection must remain in that context, taking them out of that context then you're speaking of something other than the resurrection.

The verse below shows that we changed at the resurrection

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed


And the verses below show us when after the resurrection and they won’t die

. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[ewq1938]

The verse below shows that we changed at the resurrection

After the resurrection is more accurate than "at". It's important that everyone knows the resurrection happens first, and the rapture next.

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light one one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes there is. It's the Greek word "harpazo". It means to rapture.

No, the word rapture isn't in the scriptures and the greek word harpazo doesn't mean, to rapture, it means, seize, snatch violently. Bibles translate harpazo as, caught up at 1Thessalonians 4:17. Paul was speaking of the resurrection here in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. So for anyone to take the greek word harpazo out of that context that the Apostle Paul was talking about, I'm not going to agree. The Apostle Paul was telling people to comfort one another with the resurrection hope.

 

[ewq1938]

No, the word rapture isn't in the scriptures and the greek word harpazo doesn't mean, to rapture, it means, seize, snatch violently.

Snatch with force not violence. Harpazo does mean to rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The verse below shows that we changed at the resurrection

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed


And the verses below show us when after the resurrection and they won’t die

. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

According to Romans 6:3-5 and 1Corinthians 15: 35,36,44 a person must die before they can gain heavenly life. What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. That he wasn't restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection. In the scriptures you quoted, Paul is talking of the resurrection, not a rapture. Those who have already died and been sleeping in death will be resurrected into heaven with Jesus first, this resurrection will begin at the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ. (1Thessalonians 4:15,16) When we consider what Paul said at 1Corinthians 15:51,52 that not all who will be resurrected into heaven with Jesus will sleep but that they all will be changed we have to understand this doesn't mean that those who are still alive on earth and who will be in heaven with Jesus won't die, it means that those who are still living on earth when the second presence of Jesus Christ begins that, unlike the first ones who were resurrected and who slept in death for thousands of years before the second presence of Jesus Christ began those who are still living on earth during the second presence of Jesus at their death they won't have to sleep in death for a period of time as the first ones who were resurrected did instead, at the moment of their death in a twinkling of an eye they are changed and caught up to meet the Lord. So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” 1Corinthians 15:50-53

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course the church isn't under the wrath but there is a difference between the wrath of God and the persecution of the saints. The lake of fire also isn't God wrath but Gods judgement

Correct! all who live godly will suffer persecution, in all ages! But the trib time is Gods wrath poured out on the earth and on Israel to purge them of unbelievers so the remaining nation will get saved!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Snatch with force not violence. Harpazo does mean to rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

I disagree that harpazo means rapture. When Paul was speaking to the Corinthians in his first letter to them at 1Corinthians chapter 15 and his first letter to the Thessalonians at 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 he was speaking of the resurrection. The scriptures clearly teach that the hope for the dead is a resurrection and that those who go to heaven must sacrifice their human life to get to heaven. After referring to Christians who had died, Paul added: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” “The living” would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be “caught away” to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful Christians who were resurrected first, death as a human is necessary for these who are still living on earth in order to be united with Christ in heaven. Romans 8:17, 35-39.

 

[Zao is life]

You are not the first to propose this with this evidence and you won't be the last.

Teh rapture has to occur before the tribulation starts ! Reason? Rev. 6 says the trib is the wrath of God and the Lamb! And Paul in Thess. said we are not appointed to wrath but to be delivered from the wrath to come!

the lake of fire is never called Gods wrath, but teh trib period or the 70th week of Daniel, those seven years are most definitely called the wrath of God!

Referring to the judgement/wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon the world and which is produced by His wrath as "the great tribulation" is a complete misnomer in my opinion, because there are only two New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

Here is the list of New Testament verses talking about the persecution and tribulation of Jesus, the apostles, and Christians:-

Persecution: Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians:

Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21 *

* Luke uses the words great distress and wrath in Luke 21:23 (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

It was the wrath of God coming upon the people when Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by the Roman armies: There have been various periods of both tribulation and wrath across history.

THE CLASSIC BIBLE ON:-

1. Wrath.
2. Judgment.
3. Universal Judgment.
4. Tribulation.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.
6. Being kept from the hour of temptation/trial.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

*************************************​

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

*************************************​

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION

(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues (a.k.a bowls of wrath) will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshipped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

GREAT TRIBULATION
(Spoken about only three times in the New Testament):-

Revelation 7:13-14 " And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:21 "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds.

Matthew 24:21-22 "for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9 and Matthew 13:21):-

Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to thlîpsis (tribulation) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will skandalízō, and will betray one another, and will hate one another."

Matthew 13:21 "But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when thlîpsis (tribulation) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately skandalízō."

4624 σκανδαλίζω skandalízō

to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

In the 'Olivet Discourse', Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect). Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation, but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

So the elect are present from the beginning of the (great) tribulation, to the end, and it is indeed the elect who are experiencing the (great) tribulation. It ends with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and Matthew 24:29-31, etc.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree that harpazo means rapture. When Paul was speaking to the Corinthians in his first letter to them at 1Corinthians chapter 15 and his first letter to the Thessalonians at 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 he was speaking of the resurrection. The scriptures clearly teach that the hope for the dead is a resurrection and that those who go to heaven must sacrifice their human life to get to heaven. After referring to Christians who had died, Paul added: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” “The living” would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be “caught away” to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful Christians who were resurrected first, death as a human is necessary for these who are still living on earth in order to be united with Christ in heaven. Romans 8:17, 35-39.

Harpazo means to be grabbed or snatched! Rapture is a term that came from the latin! But harpazo could be called teh great snatching away if you have a problem with a word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Referring to the judgement/wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon the world and which is produced by His wrath as "the great tribulation" is a complete misnomer in my opinion, because there are only two New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

Here is the list of New Testament verses talking about the persecution and tribulation of Jesus, the apostles, and Christians:-

Persecution: Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians:

Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21 *

* Luke uses the words great distress and wrath in Luke 21:23 (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

It was the wrath of God coming upon the people when Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by the Roman armies: There have been various periods of both tribulation and wrath across history.

THE CLASSIC BIBLE ON:-

1. Wrath.
2. Judgment.
3. Universal Judgment.
4. Tribulation.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.
6. Being kept from the hour of temptation/trial.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

*************************************​

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

*************************************​

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION

(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues (a.k.a bowls of wrath) will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshipped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

GREAT TRIBULATION
(Spoken about only three times in the New Testament):-

Revelation 7:13-14 " And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:21 "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds.

Matthew 24:21-22 "for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9 and Matthew 13:21):-

Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to thlîpsis (tribulation) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will skandalízō, and will betray one another, and will hate one another."

Matthew 13:21 "But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when thlîpsis (tribulation) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately skandalízō."

4624 σκανδαλίζω skandalízō

to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

In the 'Olivet Discourse', Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect). Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation, but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

So the elect are present from the beginning of the (great) tribulation, to the end, and it is indeed the elect who are experiencing the (great) tribulation. It ends with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and Matthew 24:29-31, etc.

All that and one verse could settle it:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and if you wish I can list all teh OT verses that speak of the tribulation time as a time of wrath on man.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Harpazo means to be grabbed or snatched! Rapture is a term that came from the latin! But harpazo could be called teh great snatching away if you have a problem with a word.

The problem I have with people applying the word rapture to the word harpazo is that by doing so your taking the word hapazo out of the context that Paul was speaking about which is the resurrection. Paul was telling his fellow Christian brothers and sisters to comfort one another with the resurrection hope not in a rapture.
As I've said the term rapture that everyone talks to me about is that it means that Christians while still living and without dying are caught up to heaven. This is completely opposite of the resurrection hope.
The scriptures show us that in order for Christians to get to heaven they have to die. Romans 6:3-5; 1Corinthians 15:35,36,44. What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew Jesus had died. He wasn't restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree that harpazo means rapture.

Disagreement isn't possible. Linguistically it is a fact that the word rapture came from harpazo.