What and when is the rapture part two?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This isn't biblical. There is no paradise in Hades. The idea is foolish and ridiculous. Do you think there is a hell in heaven also??

No because hell is simply the grave. Hell is not biblical final place of the lost- the bible calls that the lake of fire! But tthere is no longer anymore paradise in hades/sheol/hell/the grave. that was removed when Jesus ascended.

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 16:19-26
King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now if paradise/Abrahams bosom was in heaven, then Jesus lied for he had gone to heaven already if paradise that is being spoken of is in heaven. But if as was teh common teaching and understanding of the pharasaical type Jewish believers was being spoken of, paradise was just another word for Abrahams bosom and was a compartment of the grave where the righteous souls awaited for the final resurrection to be rejoined with their bodies.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This isn't biblical. There is no paradise in Hades. The idea is foolish and ridiculous. Do you think there is a hell in heaven also??

Bosom of Abraham - Wikipedia

YOu see Jesus did not contradict teh accepted belief of His day but further explained it.

Also once again if Jesus went to heaven when He died, is there a prison in heaven?
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus went to Hades, not paradise.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

Jesus did not go to heaven when He died, He went to paradise where the penitent thief also went- which was the paradise part of Hades.

Once again the teachings known at that time was that the grave/hades was divided in three parts:

1. Place of torments
2. Paradise
3. Tartareus, where angels are chained.

Jesus knew these and never refuted this teaching.

Jesus told teh penitent thief that on that day He would be with Jesus in paradise! that is the bible.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

Jesus did not go to heaven when He died, He went to paradise where the penitent thief also went- which was the paradise part of Hades.

Once again the teachings known at that time was that the grave/hades was divided in three parts:

1. Place of torments
2. Paradise
3. Tartareus, where angels are chained.

Jesus knew these and never refuted this teaching.

Jesus told teh penitent thief that on that day He would be with Jesus in paradise! that is the bible.
You're not getting your information from scripture. According to scripture, paradise is the third heaven, not part of Hades.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,446
585
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus knew these and never refuted this teaching.
Of course Jesus refuted that point. Jesus called the only place the redeemed were, Abraham's bosom. The Gospels just don't record back and forth post dozens of times over pages and pages of online forum threads.

Do you have one verse claiming the tree of life was in sheol, the abode of Satan, under his care? If not, then Paradise was taken to heaven with the tree of life at the time of the Flood, when the former earth was destroyed and a new heaven and earth happened when Noah left the ark. New because Paradise was now in heaven, and the earth started continental drift and was no longer a single continent.

Jesus' body did not go to sheol. It was placed in a tomb. Certainly not Paradise. Jesus' Spirit went to Abraham's bosom, and immediately set free those souls. They were already walking around in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, when Jesus said it was finished. It was instantaneous, like the Second Coming and rapture will be.

As for the soul of Jesus along with the Lord God and the Holy Spirit, they were in Paradise in heaven and when the thief died a few hours later, he was the first NT covenant soul to enter Paradise with a permanent incorruptible physical body, just as Jesus/Lord God promised Him. If you are going to state, that God and the Holy Spirit were actually residing in sheol, you really don't understand the Trinity, nor where God is. David did say that no matter where he was, heaven, earth, or the pit, God is always there. But surely, the thief died after the Atonement was accomplished. The thief could boldly enter God's presence as redeemed. It was God who promised the thief he would be in Paradise that day. Jesus is 100% God.

Besides the fact, Abraham's bosom was empty hours before the thief died. No one was there any more. Do you think you are really going to go to sheol before you are allowed to go to heaven? Jesus called it Abraham's bosom, and it was only temporary (for 4000 years), until Jesus said, "It is finished" on the Cross. At that point any redeemed would immediately enter Paradise where the tree of life is. The thief was the first NT redeemed.

Waiting for Pentecost is for those alive on earth. Why do those in Paradise need the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them? They are already in God's presence and have all the knowledge of God necessary. Obviously the thief died and went to Paradise before Pentecost. God said he would be in Paradise that day. God did not say the thief had to wait until Pentecost to enter Paradise.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you have one verse claiming the tree of life was in sheol, the abode of Satan, under his care? If not, then Paradise was taken to heaven with the tree of life at the time of the Flood, when the former earth was destroyed and a new heaven and earth happened when Noah left the ark. New because Paradise was now in heaven, and the earth started continental drift and was no longer a single continent.

Well as I never said or implied the tree of life was there, of course I don't have a verse.

Of course Jesus refuted that point. Jesus called the only place the redeemed were, Abraham's bosom. The Gospels just don't record back and forth post dozens of times over pages and pages of online forum threads.

And Abrahams Bosom was also called Paradise by the Jews! I showed you the cite already.

Jesus' body did not go to sheol. It was placed in a tomb. Certainly not Paradise. Jesus' Spirit went to Abraham's bosom, and immediately set free those souls. They were already walking around in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, when Jesus said it was finished. It was instantaneous, like the Second Coming and rapture will be.

His body was entombed . HIs spirit went to Paradise and He met the penitent thief there on Friday! No He did not immediately set those souls free. That awaited until He ascended as I showed you from Ephesians.

As for the soul of Jesus along with the Lord God and the Holy Spirit, they were in Paradise in heaven and when the thief died a few hours later, he was the first NT covenant soul to enter Paradise with a permanent incorruptible physical body, just as Jesus/Lord God promised Him. If you are going to state, that God and the Holy Spirit were actually residing in sheol, you really don't understand the Trinity, nor where God is. David did say that no matter where he was, heaven, earth, or the pit, God is always there. But surely, the thief died after the Atonement was accomplished. The thief could boldly enter God's presence as redeemed. It was God who promised the thief he would be in Paradise that day. Jesus is 100% God.

Creating a strawman and then beating the strawman is very unbecoming of you. I do not think any of your false accusations of me. Stop bearing false witness.

show one verse that proves the penitent thief was part of the church! Almost all of believing Christianity believes the church was born at Pentecost! If you have biblical proof it was born with the thief- bring it out!


Besides the fact, Abraham's bosom was empty hours before the thief died. No one was there any more. Do you think you are really going to go to sheol before you are allowed to go to heaven? Jesus called it Abraham's bosom, and it was only temporary (for 4000 years), until Jesus said, "It is finished" on the Cross. At that point any redeemed would immediately enter Paradise where the tree of life is. The thief was the first NT redeemed.

You do not even know why Jesus said "it is finished". It was not to end Abes Bosom/paradise. But I await your biblical proof that the Bosom was emptied hours before the thief died!
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You're not getting your information from scripture. According to scripture, paradise is the third heaven, not part of Hades.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So you are saying that before Adam fell, the third heaven was on earth? Cuz the Garden of Eden was also called paradise.

But paradise as Paul saw it, is in heaven but is not all of heaven. Heaven is formally known as New Jerusalem, which paradise is within it!
 

James Macbeth

Active Member
May 17, 2022
442
29
28
37
College Station
m.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to Revelation

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:12-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell.

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Remember these verses Jesus said in Luke 16:21-27 about the dead rich man. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
So the Rapture is at the last Trumpet?
 

James Macbeth

Active Member
May 17, 2022
442
29
28
37
College Station
m.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then you remain wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".
Sorry but you are mistaken.
In the Greek we have ἁρπαγησόμεθα (harpagēsometha)
and in the Latin we have rapiemur
which comes from the Greek word ἐρέπτομαι (eréptomai).

So...
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,446
585
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You do not even know why Jesus said "it is finished". It was not to end Abes Bosom/paradise. But I await your biblical proof that the Bosom was emptied hours before the thief died!
The Atonement was finished. That is why Jesus said it is finished.

The Atonement opened wide the gates of Paradise that had been shut by Adam's disobedience. It does not matter what Jews taught. It matters what Jesus the Word of God taught. Paradise is always where the tree of life is. Paradise was never in sheol, no matter what any one teaches.

Of course the veil was rent from top to bottom, and all the OT redeemed came bodily out of their graves all over the earth. Read Matthew 27 if you are not convinced.

Certainly you cannot state there was a resurrection at Pentecost. I already pointed out Pentecost was for the living, not the dead. The thief was dead after the Atonement was finished. The thief was covered by the Atonement like everyone else is. You cannot put the thief in limbo all by himself, when God said the thief would be in Paradise that day.

Jesus did not hang out with those in Abraham's bosom for 3 days. You have no verse that states that. The body was in the tomb. It was not walking physically down into the depths of the earth. Your verse says His Spirit went to Abrahams Bosom. That was instantaneous. The rapture at the Second Coming will be just as instantaneous. Neither are some long drawn out 3 day periods.

So you are saying that before Adam fell, the third heaven was on earth? Cuz the Garden of Eden was also called paradise.

But paradise as Paul saw it, is in heaven but is not all of heaven. Heaven is formally known as New Jerusalem, which paradise is within it!

You have that backwards; Paradise became the third heaven, probably at the Flood. The third heaven did not become Paradise. Paradise started out on earth. Then was the third heaven. Later it will descend as the New Jerusalem. It never went to sheol. No one could enter until the Cross, when Jesus declared, "It is finished". Not even souls. It was off limits physically. Sheol is a physical place but experienced by the soul. How? Don't ask me. Jesus talked about Abraham's bosom as if it were a physical place, but I have never seen a soul like some writers of God's Word claim they have. Some just write it off as merely spiritual. I am not one to jump to that conclusion.
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have that backwards; Paradise became the third heaven, probably at the Flood. The third heaven did not become Paradise. Paradise started out on earth. Then was the third heaven. Later it will descend as the New Jerusalem. It never went to sheol. No one could enter until the Cross, when Jesus declared, "It is finished". Not even souls. It was off limits physically. Sheol is a physical place but experienced by the soul. How? Don't ask me. Jesus talked about Abraham's bosom as if it were a physical place, but I have never seen a soul like some writers of God's Word claim they have. Some just write it off as merely spiritual. I am not one to jump to that conclusion.

So you are saying what Rev calls the New Jerusalem/heaven was on earth and the godhead lived on earth. Okay. You can't have it both ways. If it was on earth and is called the new Jerusalem which the bible clearly says is where the throne of God is- then you are saying that heaven was on earth when god created paradise/Eden.

The Atonement opened wide the gates of Paradise that had been shut by Adam's disobedience. It does not matter what Jews taught. It matters what Jesus the Word of God taught. Paradise is always where the tree of life is. Paradise was never in sheol, no matter what any one teaches.

Well the bible doesn't teach the tree of life is always in paradise- we assume that.

But I await your verses substantiating your claim that the penitent thief went to heaven when He died while Jesus went to Abrahams bosom. I never said Jesus went bodily down to Abrahams Bosom- another false claim you make against me.


Of course the veil was rent from top to bottom, and all the OT redeemed came bodily out of their graves all over the earth. Read Matthew 27 if you are not convinced.

Well you read Scripture as sloppily as you read my posts. Scripture does not say all OT saints rose- it just says many bodies that slept arose. Everything else is your private interpretation.

Certainly you cannot state there was a resurrection at Pentecost. I already pointed out Pentecost was for the living, not the dead. The thief was dead after the Atonement was finished. The thief was covered by the Atonement like everyone else is. You cannot put the thief in limbo all by himself, when God said the thief would be in Paradise that day.


Well it is you who claims that Abrahams bosom was closed hours before Jesus died and have yet to show one scripture to back up your opinion. I see Eph 4:
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Who was captive? the righteous souls who had to wait until Jesus actually shed His blood and then poour it out on teh mercy seat in heaven! Then when He ascended He took those souls wito Heaven with Him.

But Jesus waqs not in heaven when He died, neither was the penitent thief. They both were in Abrahams bosom/Paradise.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,446
585
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you are saying what Rev calls the New Jerusalem/heaven was on earth and the godhead lived on earth. Okay. You can't have it both ways. If it was on earth and is called the new Jerusalem which the bible clearly says is where the throne of God is- then you are saying that heaven was on earth when god created paradise/Eden.

The New Jerusalem is named that after the NHNE. Currently it is called Paradise.

Well the bible doesn't teach the tree of life is always in paradise- we assume that.

But I await your verses substantiating your claim that the penitent thief went to heaven when He died while Jesus went to Abrahams bosom. I never said Jesus went bodily down to Abrahams Bosom- another false claim you make against me.

God said he went to Paradise that day. Paradise was the third heaven since the Garden stopped being a place on earth.

Where else was the Tree of Life besides the Garden. Paradise is the word for Garden.

Well you read Scripture as sloppily as you read my posts. Scripture does not say all OT saints rose- it just says many bodies that slept arose. Everything else is your private interpretation.

Jerusalem was not the only grave site in the world. Abraham was not even buried in Jerusalem. Are you saying Abraham was not resurrected, but only those in Jerusalem. Half way job? Did Jesus say He was the Half way Resurrection and the Life.

Well it is you who claims that Abrahams bosom was closed hours before Jesus died and have yet to show one scripture to back up your opinion. I see Eph 4:
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Who was captive? the righteous souls who had to wait until Jesus actually shed His blood and then poour it out on teh mercy seat in heaven! Then when He ascended He took those souls wito Heaven with Him.

But Jesus waqs not in heaven when He died, neither was the penitent thief. They both were in Abrahams bosom/Paradise.

I did not say hours before Jesus died. Jesus died hours before the thief did. The Atonement was completed when Jesus said, "It is finished".

The thief went straight to Paradise, because God said that, not me.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jerusalem was not the only grave site in the world. Abraham was not even buried in Jerusalem. Are you saying Abraham was not resurrected, but only those in Jerusalem. Half way job? Did Jesus say He was the Half way Resurrection and the Life.

Matthew 27:52-53
King James Version

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Well untold numbers of righteous were buried in Babylon, Assyria and many other ME lands. Did they all hop a high speed shuttle to appear in Jerusalem.

Also did God cease the process of decay for OT saints so they would not decay for this event or were they like that TV show about the living dead????

I did not say hours before Jesus died. Jesus died hours before the thief did. The Atonement was completed when Jesus said, "It is finished".

The thief went straight to Paradise, because God said that, not me.

Yes he did and that was called Abrahams bosom. and you did say Abrahams bosom was emptied hours before Jesus died- I am not going to go trhrough all your posts just to prove something you did say.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,446
585
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 27:52-53
King James Version

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Well untold numbers of righteous were buried in Babylon, Assyria and many other ME lands. Did they all hop a high speed shuttle to appear in Jerusalem.

Also did God cease the process of decay for OT saints so they would not decay for this event or were they like that TV show about the living dead????

You really need the logistics spelled out for you in Scripture? Are only those living in Jerusalem going to be raptured? Or immediately high speed shuttled to Jerusalem to be raptured at the Second Coming?

Yes he did and that was called Abrahams bosom. and you did say Abrahams bosom was emptied hours before Jesus died- I am not going to go trhrough all your posts just to prove something you did say.

I said Abraham's bosom was emptied hours before the thief died. Don't waste time correcting my post. Just accept you misread it.

Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus is not the king of the zombies.

Lazarus had an incorruptible permanent physical body when he walked out of that grave. All those souls from Abraham's bosom, walked out of their graves, not stranger's graves in and around Jerusalem. Lazarus along with the rest of Abraham's bosom ascended to heaven to be presented as the firstfruits to God on Sunday morning after Jesus talked to Mary in that garden.

They all had permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They were all blessed with a first resurrection, where the second death had no power over them. They would never physically die again. This is the part of 1 Corinthians 15:21-23 and the order Paul gave:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits"

Those resurrected permanent incorruptible physical bodies were presented to God as the firstfruits, when Jesus ascended to the Father, resurrection Sunday.

The next presentation will be the Second Coming, when the whole church is glorified, restored in the full image of God, as sons of God, soul, body, and spirit. The spirit is put on over the physical body like a robe of white.

The third presentation is at the end of the 1,000 year reign. After those deceived by Satan are consumed by fire, all those left on earth and the kingdom will be presented to God. These are all who are born during the Millennial reign, and the firstfruits of the Tribulation after the church is presented.

The church has enjoyed Paradise physically since the Cross. The church glorified remains in Paradise for the Lord's Day and descends in the New Jerusalem after the NHNE.

Those sheep, wheat, and the 144k from the Trumpets and Thunders, along with those beheaded live physically on earth in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have offspring with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. There will probably be more born and spread out over the earth in those 1,000 years, than the 6,000 years of sin and death by sin in Adam's dead flesh and blood. For one, they will start out in the millions and never die but keep having offspring. Noah's Flood narrowed humanity down to only 8. If you deny that, read Genesis 5. Even in sin, they had offspring for hundreds of years. During the Millennium only those who disobey will be immediately killed. Sin will not be let into the world like Adam's disobedience. No one will live in sin and rebellion. People will not be robots, but still have free will to live under the iron rod rule. There will be no sin nature nor the knowledge of good and evil. Children will still be children, except disobedience will result in death. That will be considered abnormal or cursed. Not in a superstitious way. Just in a matter of fact way. Obviously having the knowledge of good and evil warps our understanding of how it really will be.

It will be a new heaven and earth, because there will be no more death and decay. No more rotting nor wild things just growing out of the ground. It will be just like earth prior to Adam's disobedience, and the curse placed on the earth from sin and death. But death as in disobedience will be the last enemy. It will be demonstrated for the last time when fire consumes those who listen to Satan. At that point death will be defeated. Satan cast into the LOF.

Then reality ceases, and a totally different reality will begin. One where a huge 1200 square mile city sits on a flat earth. Many think that cannot happen now, but they are probably wrong. This reality is just tainted by the knowledge of good and evil.
 

Reggie Belafonte

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2018
5,871
2,919
113
63
Brisbane
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I wouldn't deny it either and I don't. My point is that the resurrection happens at the rapture.

1 corrinthians 15:35-55

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
The real Bible says 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can obtain no part in the Kingdom of God, nether shall corruption have any part in incoruption.

Now see the difference. Of flesh and blood can not ? that's one coming from of flesh and blood ? but the Holy Spirit is another person not of the flesh and blood but born again is a new person. not of the flesh ? not governed by the flesh. not Carnal ! so they do not jell ?

So the carnal can not enter into the Kingdom of God !

What is Gods Kingdom ? well it's the ones who are Saved ! truly born again ! because such people are not under the powers of this world ?

Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Heaven.
The Kingdom of God is here on earth and that is what Christianity is all about, Our Kingdom is under Christ Jesus ! not this world because a true Christian rejects this world because it is under the power of corruption and deceptions. all who are of this world are owned by the works of Man and they have no part in the Kingdom of God, for they do not know such or the reject such. for they have no Grace ! they are brats.

See Flesh and blood can obtain no part in the Kingdom of God ? see the "No" ! No part in ? such has nothing to do with the subject ! it's the Holy Spirit that is the key ! People can inherit the Kingdom of God in fact and that's what one is when one is truly born again in fact, you are changed directly, in a twinkling of an eye ! you are not a carnal of the flesh fool anymore ! like From a deranged sort of monster (Ape) to a Saint ! = Human ! where God created us to be and the Son of God made that gift for us to be able to grasp.
The Flesh has no part in the Holy spirit, it's carnal ! but you are changed ! due to the Holy Spirit and see the Bible points out a List of all who can not enter into the Kingdom of God in fact ! go and have a look see of all who can not enter ? Now why is it that such can not enter ? well because they do not have the Holy Spirit ? for such people who do posses the Holy Spirit will not be possessed with anything on the List in fact, that's why the carnal can not enter into the Kingdom of God because they are cursed in fact and they will have no regard for the List in fact and the List show who can not come in because they are not worthy because they are not worthy of the Holy Spirit !

Now the carnal will dismiss the List because they hate the List or do not respect the List in fact. such people can not enter because they are an abomination to God !

When the Second coming arrives ? Think of the people who are truly Saved = truly born again people who are in fact Israel ? = servants of God ? They are Saved in fact before hand regardless in fact, so do they need to be Saved again ? No ! nothing will change for them, but for this world will be changed, all will be exposed ! even the village idiot will have eyes to see and ears to hear. because the power of Satan will be exposed for all to see !
The workings of this world is a septic tank ! and Jesus came to help us drag ourselves out of such and bring us all up to the Kingdom of God in fact. Raising us up ! not dragging us down like this world is, supporting or promoting a carnal sad life ?
But Jesus came to give us "Life" in abundance !
The Carnal can not perceive what Life in abundance is at all, for they do not posses such at all. that's why they are such lost sad sacks. They have nothing but their own ego to serve and that's a dish served cold.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you are saying that before Adam fell, the third heaven was on earth? Cuz the Garden of Eden was also called paradise.
No, that's not at all what I was saying and you know it.

But paradise as Paul saw it, is in heaven but is not all of heaven. Heaven is formally known as New Jerusalem, which paradise is within it!
The paradise Paul saw was the same paradise that Jesus went to when He died and that was not Hades. That is the point. It seems like you forgot what this discussion was about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,988
1,227
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, that's not at all what I was saying and you know it.

The paradise Paul saw was the same paradise that Jesus went to when He died and that was not Hades. That is the point. It seems like you forgot what this discussion was about.


Why do these people think paradise can be in Hades? Is heaven inside of the lake of fire?