What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

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bbyrd009

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tabletalk said:
bbyrd009 said: "Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head."

Can you explain the meaning of the burning coals heaped on someone's head? I thought that was something desirable to have happen to you, like in this passage: Romans 12:20
Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
my meaning there is that it becomes irrelevant to you if you are already forgiven, if you cannot accept forgiveness.

"Burning coals on your head" is possibly the best way to illustrate the lack of appreciation one might experience from having an "enemy" who is not responding in kind, iow not acting like an enemy, or taking the high road, however you want to put it. If it is happening to you, you will not frame it as "desirable" even though yes it is in a sense.
 

H. Richard

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bbyrd009 said:
i am all upset? "confess your sins to each other" is a point that i manufactured?
I said the above in a reply to wormwood. I will not reply to your posts any longer since you think everything I write is wrong. There is no point in it. It just fills up space on this forum.
 

Wormwood

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mjrhealth said:
How does one listen to what one reads, does not teh bibel declare

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

One needs to hear is how one gets life, again

oh_4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

or

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

can you imagine what it would be like if

Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

can you imagine all men learning from Jesus, can you imagine the delight in His face as He declares to God, look, they have all come to me, now they all know me, no more religion no more teachers just me and them....

What will happen that day, when our Lord returns, and teh wise virgins get called and light there lamps, and they walk in teh light and brightness of their shining, while the foolish virgins find there lamps are flickering and dull, than they run to the wise and ask for oil, who declare unto them, We only have enough for ourselves!, what will they than do, run to teh religious and ask, help us. our lamps are dull and we do not have enough oil, what will we do?? What will they do, send them to BP to see if they have any???
So I guess there are two options here. 1). Jesus uses teachers (seems to be a lot of biblical texts that say God appoints teachers, preachers, etc.) 2) Jesus doesn't use teachers and therefore no one should listen to you or anyone who claims to be a teacher.

I guess. my point is...if you are arguing that we should all just learn from Jesus and that anyone who tries to teach another is trying to usurp Christ's role, then you should stop trying to teach people because you are doing the very thing you claim is the foundation of "man's religion."
 

Wormwood

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But men do mock God. God has said that He paid for the sins of all mankind but do men believe it? The discussion between us boils down to this very thing; did Jesus' shed blood pay for all the sins of the world which includes both of us.


When a person teaches that sin in the life of a person condemns that person they are saying that what the person does to sin or not sin determines their salvation
H Richard. I agree with you here. I am not saying sin in a person's life condemn them. I am not saying we are saved by living perfect lives. If that is how I came across, I apologize. I do not believe that. I don't think that is what my response indicated in any way.

What I see in your writing above is your saying a person must not sin (the law) when you and I both know that we both sin in the flesh. Which is it? Is a person saved by having faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, alone, or by His work AND a person' work trying not to sin? If it includes the work of man then it is not a gift from God. The person has to earn it by what they do.
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that grace is not license to sin. Using grace as an excuse to do whatever you want is a fool's errand. God is not mocked. What I AM saying is that our actions reflect what we really believe. Someone can say they love Jesus all day, but if they are joyfully and continually doing the things that grieve him and caused him to be nailed to a cross, then its pretty clear they don't love Jesus. Again, just to be as clear as possible....I am NOT saying a person has to live a sinless life. I AM saying that holiness matters to God and because it matters to him, it should matter to us. We shouldn't use grace as a reason to make sin or holiness inconsequential in the Christian life.

By the way, a person makes Christ their Lord when they place their faith, trust, belief and confidence in what their Lord has done for them.
I agree with this. My simple point is that if a person has real faith.....trust....belief...and confidence in Jesus, then it will be reflected in their lives. If I tell my wife, "I love you" every day, but I also mock her, punch her, and make her feel stupid every day...then the words "I love you" don't mean anything. Saying I have confidence in Jesus isn't the same thing as actually doing so. My point is simply that there are lot of people who are fooling themselves because they said some words or uttered a prayer 20 years ago about loving Jesus, but then the past two decades of their life have been filled with all kinds of evil and debauchery...and they think because they said a prayer or went forward to an altar that they are just fine. If a person loves Jesus, they will live like it. Of course, they will stumble. We all do. But that still doesn't negate the fact that their life bears the true fruit of repentance and faith. This is the fruit God is looking for...the fruit of a changed heart.
 
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Wormwood

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I'm curious how you might recognize when it might be you persisting in sin, in this case? Not saying that you are sinning right now, but if you were, how would you know? For example i now rebuke you for not being encouraging, what is your reply to this?

i mean surely you can see the inherent "Since i am the one siding with God here, by definition you, mjr, are the one not siding with God, as anyone who accepts my authoritay can easily see."

It is just a clever way to put others down wadr.
Well, first, I try to regularly expose myself to Scripture and prayer so that I might see areas in my life where I need to change or repent. I know because I believe the Bible is God's word and if it says something is a sin, then I believe it and try to repent of it and get it out of my life. As for your personal rebuke, haha, I didn't know "not being encouraging" is a sin. Can you point me to a verse on this? If so, I will try to fill every moment of every day with encouragement toward others...haha. Otherwise, I rebuke you for rebuking me with an invalid rebuke! lol

Its really not that difficult. the Bible is either God's word or it isn't. If it isn't, then I guess I am not doing God's will (and Paul also said that if the dead are not raised, he is a false witness about God). So, yeah, I am putting my faith in the fact that the Scriptures are reliable and they are the words of God. I guess that is my faith position and if I am wrong, then I am a false witness. A silly cartoon picturing extremists who use God to justify killing, child abuse, or picketing funerals as a means of critiquing my belief in the Scriptures as God's word is just dumb. I am not an extremist. My beliefs are entirely orthodox on every major doctrinal issue in the Bible. Again it seems you are looking for more exceptions to define the rule. Just seems like more attempts to discredit everything so you don't have to answer to anything.
 
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OzSpen

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H. Richard said:
***
I don't have to demonstrate anything to men. Men are not my judge. Who ever wishes to judge me must first judge themselves by the same standard. If they sin then they can not judge me for sin.

But religious people love to judge others for their sins for it is a way the focus is on others rather than on themselves. If a person judges another for their sins while they sin too then they are condemning themselves.

1 Cor 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
NKJV

Religious people look at the outwards sins and cannot see the inward sins they commit every day..
Richard,

Jesus had a very different view:

15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions (Matt 7:15-20 NLT).
Oz
 

OzSpen

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tabletalk said:
From bbyrd009: "....recognize that Christ certainly forgives you, but you also have to forgive yourself, and you will not be able to do this if you have spent your life protecting your ego. Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head. Satan has confidence in the Gospel, too, much more than us, surely. So what."

I have read this other places, maybe many times, that "you also have to forgive yourself". Can you make a biblical case for that statement? Is it a command I have missed, and am I sinning by not following it? Or maybe it is a psychological truth?
tabletalk,

Forgive yourself is something I learned (and rejected) from the self-esteem movement of secular psychology.

Oz
 

H. Richard

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Wormwood said:
So I guess there are two options here. 1). Jesus uses teachers (seems to be a lot of biblical texts that say God appoints teachers, preachers, etc.) 2) Jesus doesn't use teachers and therefore no one should listen to you or anyone who claims to be a teacher.

I guess. my point is...if you are arguing that we should all just learn from Jesus and that anyone who tries to teach another is trying to usurp Christ's role, then you should stop trying to teach people because you are doing the very thing you claim is the foundation of "man's religion."
***
A teacher is supposed to introduce others to ideas. It does not mean they are more informed than others. In the case of the scriptures it is to introduce the ideas the scriptures indicate. But if it is left to man to understand what God is proclaiming man will never know the truth. Mankind refuses to see that God did not leave His children helpless.

John 16:13-15
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
NKJV

It is the Holy Spirit that teaches the children of God by revelations just as Paul received his revelations. But most religious people only trust in men. I have not failed to see that most studies about scriptures come from people who write books to teach others their ideas and they do not teach from the scriptures as a whole in context. And I don't see religious people glorifying what Jesus did on the cross. What I do see is men glorifying in their religion.

This is a good example;

Jesus said he did not come to the Gentiles in two places, ---
Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Jews) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

But what does man teach; "that Jesus came to the Gentiles too". Which is not true. Jesus came to the Jews to offer the promised kingdom on earth. He never offered salvation to the Gentiles at that time. It was only AFTER the Jews rejected Him that He gave Paul the Gospel of grace for all men.

The point is, why don't the religious see the words in Matthew 10; 5-7 and Mathew 15: 23-24? Why do they just ignore them so the they can include what Jesus said to those under the law with grace?
 

H. Richard

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OzSpen said:
Richard,

Jesus had a very different view:


Oz
Oz, The fruit a child of God is to produce is other children of God, not self righteous men.

Paul, in his writings always said he knew other children of God by their faith. IMO I see children of God on this forum by their faith expressed in words.

When people express their works I do not see any faith except in their works.
 

bbyrd009

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tabletalk said:
From bbyrd009: "....recognize that Christ certainly forgives you, but you also have to forgive yourself, and you will not be able to do this if you have spent your life protecting your ego. Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head. Satan has confidence in the Gospel, too, much more than us, surely. So what."

I have read this other places, maybe many times, that "you also have to forgive yourself". Can you make a biblical case for that statement? Is it a command I have missed, and am I sinning by not following it? Or maybe it is a psychological truth?
it is likely the "double-minded" person in Scripture, and my guess is that it does not even apply to you, practically speaking, at least not anymore. At least not unless you can put yourself in the position of needing grace from someone you might consider an enemy or adversary, and imagine what accepting a glass of needed water from them might feel like (psychologically, yes, which is also "spiritually" in this case imo).

Another reflection might be that of a naif, an innocent person, who does not recognize sarcasm being directed at them, perhaps. Iow you might be having trouble identifying with someone having burning coals heaped on their heads simply because you are not the type of person who cultivates enemies, and you are not vindictive, so the analogy is lost on you. It would be like trying to explain evil to a little child iow.

So perhaps it might suffice to say that someone with a guilty conscience, or who feels ashamed of something, does not so easily lose this shame and guilt as is often portrayed. A person playing at believing in Christ, who does not adhere to the Biblical mandate to seek forgiveness from the one they have sinned against, but instead consoles themselves with a penitent prayer before bedtime, perhaps, fully planning to perpetrate the same sin upon someone else, if not the same victim, may easily blind themselves to the reality that they are, say, now avoiding this person that they have sinned against, not realizing that in not making it right they have now given this person a power over them so to speak. And this person may likely have already forgiven them, see, but that is not keeping the guilty party from avoiding them, in this scenario. Of course it is easy to just verbalize that they are not avoiding anyone at all, even as everyone around might be in agreement that they certainly are.

This is quite likely how the same God Who would ask "Who told you that you were naked?" is going to be "avoided," in a sense--not because of condemnation, but because of guilt and shame at not having done the right thing. The Light will not be comfortable, iow, because they crave the darkness, that there sin may remain "hidden."

Of course there are old guilts and shames that we cannot practically remedy by confession to the affected party, etc, i am still tortured by a lizard i threw in a fire when i was like 12 years old, but on another level i accept that the important thing is i am remorseful now, and would not do that now, and that i am forgiven; iow i accept that Grace covers this "sin." Which i wish i had picked one dealing with another person, because once you accept this grace, you imo will inevitably get to experience it from the other end, someone committing the same sin upon you, and then fading into the future, never to be seen again after a couple of avoidances, perhaps, or none, which is a test of your acceptance of Grace as well as usually a profound bit of cognitive dissonance for the offender, when you do not react as they expected or whatever. But of course if you are forgiven a huge debt, and then go throttle someone for $10, you have failed to understand the principle.
 

bbyrd009

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H. Richard said:
I said the above in a reply to wormwood. I will not reply to your posts any longer since you think everything I write is wrong. There is no point in it. It just fills up space on this forum.
i have allowed--at least in other places--that you might be absolutely correct about this rapture thing, and i merely meant to convey to you that we have a simple mechanism to test your conviction, that being that your date is less than 6 months away. Space is unlimited here so i appreciate your concern about my readiness for the rapture, and i hope you see that it is only fair that i be equally concerned with what to me is a much more likely scenario, that being how your faith will be affected when your belief is exposed as being incorrect, assuming it is.

Lives have been destroyed, and people have actually died over this same scenario, ok? Committed suicide, gotten divorces, figuratively blown up congregations, all manner of things most people would consider "bad." Yes i am convinced that you are going to be disappointed, but it does not matter what i think in the end, does it? But what might matter, at least to you, is what will happen when you are in free fall, after being crushed by this, and fwiw i will tell you that i was once pretty confident of my own dates, ok. Imo it will be the best thing that could happen to you, most likely, but it also began a 20 year jag of, ultimately, shooting dope for me, so understand that i feel i would be remiss in not at least suggesting that you prepare.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
Its really not that difficult. the Bible is either God's word or it isn't.
Well then, either "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible Was God" is true, or it isn't, and you are the one that must decide this for yourself.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
A silly cartoon picturing extremists who use God to justify killing, child abuse, or picketing funerals as a means of critiquing my belief in the Scriptures as God's word is just dumb. I am not an extremist.
well of course the meme is meant to convey that we all are convinced of the supremacy of our positions, regardless of whether they might be considered extremists or not. Christians are currently drone-bombing civilians on your dime, and with the imprimatur of your vote; so one guy's extremist is another's freedom fighter, and surely none of the cartoon characters would describe themselves as "extremist," see.
 

bbyrd009

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Again it seems you are looking for more exceptions to define the rule
my hope was to illuminate that any rule (doctrine) has exceptions, and it is in defining the "rule" that we most often run into error. Exceptions are more likely the rule, imo.
 

bbyrd009

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Just seems like more attempts to discredit everything so you don't have to answer to anything.
exactly my position where those who believe that Jesus will cover their unrepented sins are concerned, hmm. If you cannot follow the Scriptural prescription for rebound, and instead have accepted that you can sin and then go confess in the dark, to someone other than those you have sinned against, then who is it who craves not having to answer for their sins?
 

H. Richard

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bbyrd009 said:
my hope was to illuminate that any rule (doctrine) has exceptions, and it is in defining the "rule" that we most often run into error. Exceptions are more likely the rule, imo.
When you post with a "quote" please indicate who you are quoting just as I have above. PLEASE
 
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Wormwood

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A teacher is supposed to introduce others to ideas. It does not mean they are more informed than others. In the case of the scriptures it is to introduce the ideas the scriptures indicate. But if it is left to man to understand what God is proclaiming man will never know the truth. Mankind refuses to see that God did not leave His children helpless.
H Richard, Hmm, I don't buy that. Last I checked, kindergarteners are not teaching kindergarten class. Universities require PhDs from professors for a reason. How much more should a person be qualified and knowledgeable in the Word of God before becoming a teacher!? The requirement for being an elder is being "able to teach." Moreover, young converts are excluded from such leadership roles so they do not become "puffed up" and "fall into the condemnation of the devil." Those who teach are declared worthy of "double honor" (which indicates a special role and responsibility). The author of Hebrews rebukes his audience that by now they should be able to teach, but still need someone to teach them the basic oracles of God. Also, James says teachers will be judged with greater strictness.

So, clearly those who are teachers are expected to be mature, knowledgeable and Christ-like men who are able to handle the responsibility and dangers of such a privilege.

I think it is a big mistake to take Jesus' direct words to the Apostles just before his passion and try to apply his direction to them to all believers everywhere. He also told them the Holy Spirit would remind them of every thing he said to them. I don't think that promise applies to every Christian.

Im not going to chase after the bait to get into another ridiculous conversation about your views that there are two Gospels and Jesus' message and the message of the 12 Apostles was different and contradictory to the Gospel Paul preached. Its just heresy and I really don't want to beat that dead horse again.
 

Wormwood

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bbyrd009 said:
Well then, either "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible Was God" is true, or it isn't, and you are the one that must decide this for yourself.
Thats a nonsensical statement.

well of course the meme is meant to convey that we all are convinced of the supremacy of our positions, regardless of whether they might be considered extremists or not. Christians are currently drone-bombing civilians on your dime, and with the imprimatur of your vote; so one guy's extremist is another's freedom fighter, and surely none of the cartoon characters would describe themselves as "extremist," see.
Ok, so I will just leave you to live happily in the grey where you can make your own rules. Im sure if one of your loved ones was in the Twin Towers when they were ruthlessly attacked, you'd have a different perspective on things. Just remember that the freedom you have to spout such nonsense and ponder your navel in such ridiculous ways came at a price.

then i invite you to state an unassailable doctrinal position from Scripture, and we can see how unassailable it really is.
1. I feel no need to prove anything to you.
2. So far you have yet to really provide any meaningful response to my scriptural expositions.....other than baffling attempts to throw handfuls of rambling spaghetti against the wall hoping something might stick. You use no Scripture, no context, no history or anything resembling an informed response in your statements.
3. The longer this conversation goes, the more unorthodox and incoherent your responses become (at least in my mind). So, I think I am going to draw this to a close. It doesn't seem like you are trying to have a meaningful exchange. It looks to me like you are just looking for ways to be disagreeable. Im not interested in debating for the sake of debating.
 
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mjrhealth

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(seems to be a lot of biblical texts that say God appoints teachers, preachers, etc.)
That just the point is it not, appointed by Gof, yet so many appoint themsleves.

Universities require PhDs from professors for a reason. How much more should a person be qualified and knowledgeable in the Word of God before becoming a teacher
Qualified by man not by God, look at Saul and what Happened to Him before He found Christ

God doesnt deal in certificates, and one is not required to know the bible. Just Jesus He is teh truth.
 
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