What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

[mjrhealth]

No, it means quitting your job because God has a much more important job for you to do. He is calling you to spread the gospel everywhere you go. He is calling you to a harvest that is ripe for the picking.

That in itself is a dangerous statement that has got many doing what they should not. When Christ calls you know it, becuase it will cost you witout you doing anything.it has nothing to do with what is written in teh bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not suggesting that this would work today, especially given that there really aren't any people like that anymore.

lots of people live that way! Communes, enclaves, intentional communities, etc. Bruderhof. et al.

 

[FHII]

On multiple occasions shnarkle has accused Wormwood of "trolling". Shnarkle:

Do you even know whay that term means? Google it... It means to deliberately post something offensive in order to get an angry response. If anything, thats you, not Wormwood!

He hasn't done that... But you have been nothing but caustic from your first post. It could actually be a descent topic, but the tone seems very bitter. Furthermore I suspect there is an agenda behind it. No I can't prove it... But I discern it.

I have seen many good responses to your questions with scriptural refernce. The bottom line is that its ok to have a job and have some money... We must be ready to distribute and be givers.... That could be a worthwhile conversation. But thats not my issue right now.

Just to be clear... I have some issues with Wormwood. But i look at this thread and shnakle... You clearly are falsely acccusing him of trolling.

 

[bbyrd009]

We all serve God in our own ways with our own gifts and will be held accountable to Him for what we have done. So who are you to condemn others because they do not live as you do!?

this is trolling?

 

[Wormwood]

Sure, but it's also the way of the world. It has nothing to do with God's plan. It has nothing to do with Christ's explicit instructions as to what it means to truly be a disciple. These aren't my judgements. These are the words of Christ himself.

So a church cannot be doing the will of God if a building or land is involved. Is that what you are arguing? The preaching of the Gospel is made void if a building is owned?

Abraham left his home with no idea of where he was going.

Yes, and God blessed him and made him a very wealthy man with a lot of servants, flocks and herds.

And Jacob was blessed by God and loved by God...he had wealth...thats the point.


“In this way the man grew exceedingly prosperous and came to own large flocks, and female and male servants, and camels and donkeys.” (Genesis 30:43, NIV)

God even convicted him of his wealth while God was sitting in a tent.

“David then took up residence in the fortress and called it the City of David. He built up the area around it, from the terraces inward. And he became more and more powerful, because the Lord God Almighty was with him. Now Hiram king of Tyre sent envoys to David, along with cedar logs and carpenters and stonemasons, and they built a palace for David. Then David knew that the Lord had established him as king over Israel and had exalted his kingdom for the sake of his people Israel.” (2 Samuel 5:9–12, NIV)

Looks to me like "the Lord God Almighty was with him" is why he became powerful, had palaces and fortresses.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm not condemning anyone...Where have I condemned anyone? Please supply the post where I have condemned anyone.

Well, when you suggest that anyone who hasn't taken a vow of poverty and determines to be unemployed is not a real disciple of Jesus, that's about as condemning as it gets. Last I checked, non-disciples do not go to heaven...correct?

When one is ready to share, they actually do share. How many of your rich friends share their mansions? How does one share a place like that?

Lol, yes, all my friends live in mansions. You know me so well. smh.

No, it means quitting your job because God has a much more important job for you to do.

Oh really? What if my job is to share the Gospel with people? I should quit that? Is the virtue here in being generous and doing Kingdom work or not drawing a paycheck? Seems like your only focus is the latter.

Jesus said to give up working for a living. Walk in faith brother. Don't knock it till you try it.

“Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.” (Ephesians 4:28, NIV)

So...looks like this scripture says we "must work." Ill go with the Scripture here rather than your extrapolations on the teachings of Jesus.


Look, you aren't convicting me or driving me crazy with anything. You know nothing about me, my finances or my life. I write this in a very calm and collected manner. I am really not that concerned with what you think about me or my faith. You know nothing about me. I am simply sharing my views about how you are completely misunderstanding the Bible and the words of Jesus. Im not even going to try to respond to your 10 pages of condescending responses. Ill just close with a couple of Scriptures.

“One person gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty.” (Proverbs 11:24, NIV)

“So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both wealth and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings.” (1 Kings 3:11–13, NIV) (Looks like God gave the wealth to Solomon...that was my point..it wasn't Solomons evil plot to reject the plans of God for him)

You may be right. It's so old that I doubt I'd get more than a few dollars, if that.

Im surprised you'd let "a few dollars" get in the way of allowing you to be a true disciple...according to your definition anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

27Don't work for food that spoils. Instead, work for the food that lasts into eternal life.

Should at least get a hearing here. For whatever reason, we have no testimony of worldly wealth gained by a believer in the dispensation of Grace, NT.

 

[Wormwood]

27Don't work for food that spoils. Instead, work for the food that lasts into eternal life.

Should at least get a hearing here. For whatever reason, we have no testimony of worldly wealth gained by a believer in the dispensation of Grace, NT.

Well, there seem to be some that had wealth....there are a few Scriptures that indicate as much. However, you are right, the early church was predominantly very poor and highly persecuted. For many in the early church (and in many places around the world), to become a Christian meant to lose status, family and possibly your means of making a living. People sacrificed incredibly for Jesus and still do around the world.

Yet my point is that for those who do not live in areas where they are highly persecuted and lose their jobs if they profess Christ, I do not see anything in the NT that suggests they cannot have a job or must take a vow of poverty to prove they have faith. Certainly we should be willing to give up all for Christ, but many in the West do not live under such harsh conditions or persecutions. Yet, those with wealth need to be careful not to put their trust in it and to be generous with what they have. That is God's command to the wealthy...not that they sell everything and become unemployed as is being argued here by shnarkle.

 

[bbyrd009]

i see reflections now--that likely were not apparent so much even 20 years ago--of "666 in their hand, or their forehead" (everything they do, or everything they think), now applicable to even crop production for profit, but i guess that doesn't mean that one could not still find gainful employment somewhere. But wherever the $ is being sought, the cheapest method is also usually sought, now, too, right. And that is not even getting in to the reality of a $ that is manipulated--and you have to be paid in $s, right. See the difference in United States Notes--what Kennedy was printing--and Federal Reserve Notes, iow. The second requires dilution, and inflation, etc, and they have in fact "crashed" over 99% since their inception. We just don't notice it, having been born and raised with a dollar that shrinks in value over time.

And if you advocate some other medium of exchange, you are an enemy of the state. Now i'm seeing the rise of cryptocurrency--BTC is up over $1000 each again--and imo the dollar is hanging by a thread now; it only lacks some trusted source, prolly a sovereign one, to create a trusted crypto exchange...i'm surprised Iran hasn't thought of it yet, actually. They are wanting to dump dollars, and a crypto exchange would be a fait accompli.

We can also witness that for like half of our workforce now--prolly 49%, lol--the alt seems to be to work for $, or "peanuts," for less and less than a living wage, every day. Imo it has been figured out that in a "democracy" only 51% of the pop needs to be content, see. There are many other reflections here, such as the debt being paid on $20 Trillion dollars, every day, and bailouts for bonuses, etc, but the point might be that i think one is fairly hard-pressed to justify taking a job for dollars now. The test might be if you even could eschew dollars for any amount of time; as the oppressed here have been forced to do. If you have a mortgage, it is of course pointless to pretend that you are not a slave to your mortgage, etc.

 

[mjrhealth]

In the end of it all, it is not our choosing but Christs, we can only agree when he calls.

 

[bbyrd009]

In the end of it all, it is not our choosing but Christs, we can only agree when he calls.

ha. For that i would consider Man's absolute terror of God, reflected in statements by the Wanderers to Moses and touched on elsewhere, many places, and our delight in the things of satan, appearing as an angel of light. While it would be nice to assume that at some point this changes, to me that is paramount to suggesting that free will gets taken away, which also speaks to your choosing, imo. If we are called to change our minds, i think this implies that it is we who must make a choice to do so. Otherwise again free will is violated.

It might be pertinent to reflect on all those instances of God hardening hearts with a different frame of mind, iow.

21Then, looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, "You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."
22But he was stunned at this demand, and he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.

 

[H. Richard]

Since the OP was "


"What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?"

One thing for sure it would not be a person in religions. It was the religious that killed Jesus, stoned Stephens to death, and persecuted Paul for the gospel Jesus gave him for the world.

 

[Wormwood]

RELIGION

1. 
   
   
   
   
   the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   
   
   
   
   • 
     
     
     a particular system of faith and worship.
     
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
     
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

I think Christianity, like it or not, is a religion. Now I understand it is not like other world religions that are based in human effort...and that even Christians can fall into the trap of legalism. However, as far as definitions go, I think its pretty important for a person to believe in God and be a part of a particular system of faith and worship. Christians are not non-religious. Jesus and others were killed by those who had no faith. Religious or not, both the Romans and the Jews had a part in the persecution and murder of Christians in the first century. I just think it is important to clarify terms. However, I agree that legalistic people whose religion is based on self effort is not a disciple of Jesus.

 

[shnarkle]

That in itself is a dangerous statement that has got many doing what they should not. When Christ calls you know it, becuase it will cost you witout you doing anything.it has nothing to do with what is written in teh bible.

It has to do with Christ's own words, e.g. "You cannot be one of my disciples unless you forsake all...etc."

 

[shnarkle]

lots of people live that way! Communes, enclaves, intentional communities, etc. Bruderhof. et al.

So true! I was getting a bit jaded when I wrote that. It happens when I meet so much resistance to the gospel message.

 

[shnarkle]

On multiple occasions shnarkle has accused Wormwood of "trolling". Shnarkle:

Do you even know whay that term means? Google it... It means to deliberately post something offensive in order to get an angry response. If anything, thats you, not Wormwood!

If I told you that you were judging and condemning people. You wouldn't take that as trolling? How about if I were to do that in post after post after post?

He hasn't done that... But you have been nothing but caustic from your first post. It could actually be a descent topic, but the tone seems very bitter. Furthermore I suspect there is an agenda behind it. No I can't prove it... But I discern it.

This is what I find truly amazing. I post Christ's own words and take them at face value, and people get completely bent out of shape because they think, without any prompting from me whatsoever; that I'm insisting that they "take a vow of poverty". There is no post anywhere that I've presented this nonsense. People just automatically read nonsense into what I'm posting, and then proceed to go on rants making baseless accusations. When I point out that they're basically just making baseless accusations and that there really is no reason to do this other than that they're simply engaging in trolling. People still just want to ignore this plain fact.

I have seen many good responses to your questions with scriptural refernce. The bottom line is that its ok to have a job and have some money...

I agree, especially if we want to be Christ's disciples because we can't quit a job we don't have, and we can't give all that money to the poor if we don't have any money to give away.

We must be ready to distribute and be givers....

Jesus doesn't say that we must be ready. He says "sell...give..etc."

Just to be clear... I have some issues with Wormwood. But i look at this thread and shnakle... You clearly are falsely acccusing him of trolling.

I beg to differ. People are making false accusations, and if that's not trolling then you should have no problem with my accusations that he is trolling, especially when he's making accusation after accusation without even really addressing this topic. His replies are based on his own accusations and his own arguments against Jesus own words. For some reason he thinks I'm making this stuff up; I'm not. I'm quoting the text itself. I'm also pointing out that it makes sense.

 

[shnarkle]

this is trolling?

this is trolling?

Not if I am condemning others. Where am I doing that?

 

[shnarkle]

Well, when you suggest that anyone who hasn't taken a vow of poverty and determines to be unemployed is not a real disciple of Jesus, that's about as condemning as it gets. Last I checked, non-disciples do not go to heaven...correct?

Where am I stating that one must take a vow of poverty? This is about the third time someone has made this asinine accusation.

Lol, yes, all my friends live in mansions. You know me so well. smh.

Regardless of what they live in. How closely does it resemble how Jesus' own disciples were living?

Oh really? What if my job is to share the Gospel with people? I should quit that?

Where did I say to quite spreading the gospel?

Is the virtue here in being generous and doing Kingdom work or not drawing a paycheck?

The instructions from Jesus are to do kingdom work; to work for our heavenly father, and let Him provide for our every need.

Seems like your only focus is the latter.

No, this seems to be what you're focusing in on. I just asked a few questions on the subject to see what people thought about it. Looks like I hit a nerve; why does it bother you so much?

“Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.” (Ephesians 4:28, NIV)

So...looks like this scripture says we "must work." Ill go with the Scripture here rather than your extrapolations on the teachings of Jesus.

I never said we mustn't work. I simply pointed out that Jesus is pointing out that we need to work for only ONE employer. Jesus points out that we can't work for both God and money. That's not really something one needs to dispute. He plainly said that. You're the one who is extrapolating that "work" means to be gainfully employed making money. Paul clearly taught just the opposite. Why would he "repent" of working for money if that wasn't the case?

Im surprised you'd let "a few dollars" get in the way of allowing you to be a true disciple...according to your definition anyway.

When or where did I say I was a true disciple?

 

[shnarkle]

... whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

So just in case anyone may have forgotten that these are Christ's words rather than some condemning suggestion on my part; I post them once again.

And what sort of response do I get from just one of the loving, and oh so selfless, giving, non-judgmental Christians in this group?

Yet we need to be very cautious about taking such narratives and making new laws about vows of poverty lest we falsely create a new Gospel that is based on our levels of sacrifice and giving rather than Christ's.


I think you are throwing around a lot of judgment towards me and you have no idea about my financial status, lifestyle, or efforts to show benevolence to others.

However, again, I think you need to be cautious about your blanket judgments against other believers.

folks like you want to condemn them for the good they are doing.


You should think about things before you start pointing your finger at others in judgment.


you are trying to turn the NT narratives into a new law.

You are terrible at twisting Scripture. According to your logic, we must all forsake everything.

You are so eager to justify yourself and condemn others on the basis of how much money someone has in their wallet.

So who are you to condemn others because they do not live as you do!? Be very careful. You will be judged by the same standard you use.


when you suggest that anyone who hasn't taken a vow of poverty and determines to be unemployed is not a real disciple of Jesus, that's about as condemning as it gets.

Look, you aren't convicting me or driving me crazy with anything. You know nothing about me, my finances or my life. I write this in a very calm and collected manner. I am really not that concerned with what you think about me or my faith. You know nothing about me. I am simply sharing my views about how you are completely misunderstanding the Bible and the words of Jesus. Im not even going to try to respond to your 10 pages of condescending responses.


I do not see anything in the NT that suggests they cannot have a job or must take a vow of poverty to prove they have faith.

Yet, those with wealth need to be careful not to put their trust in it and to be generous with what they have. That is God's command to the wealthy...not that they sell everything and become unemployed as is being argued here by shnarkle.

Is it just me, or does it look like some people are protesting just a bit too much?

I'd also like to point out that the definition of ad hominem deals with statements directed at the person rather than the content of their arguments. Accusing me of "making new laws", spreading a "new gospel", of "convicting", "judging", and "condemning" others is inflammatory; it is quite simply trolling in it's most blatant, unimaginative and basest form. For this to come from a moderator is ridiculous and makes this forum look like a mockery of Christianity.

 

[Wormwood]

Where am I stating that one must take a vow of poverty? This is about the third time someone has made this asinine accusation.

"Sure, but it's also the way of the world. It has nothing to do with God's plan. It has nothing to do with Christ's explicit instructions [your reference here is to selling all our stuff] as to what it means to truly be a disciple."

'Jesus said to give up working for a living. Walk in faith brother.'

A person can have money and not serve it.

"Sure, they just can't be one of Christ's disciples."

I dont know what to make of this discussion, snarkle. You can't be any more clear that you believe a disciple must sell all their stuff. You have said as much multiple times and have explicitly said that Jesus said to give up working for a living. So, when you tell everyone they have to sell all their possessions in order to be a disciple and that Jesus says they cannot have a job and be a disciple or have any money...then that pretty much is a vow of poverty. I dont know about you, but when I have multiple random people making the same comment to me, at some point I start to think that maybe I am wrong and they are right....ya think? I mean, what are the chances that three different people make the similar statement to you about the content of your posts? Perhaps you need to work on your communication skills if this isn't what you are intending to say.

Regardless of what they live in. How closely does it resemble how Jesus' own disciples were living?

Well considering we dont live in the first century Middle East, I dont think any of us live in conditions comparable to the disciples. Perhaps we should give up running water, electricity, and pooping indoors as well? By your rationale, the only real way to be a disciple is if we give up our jobs, put on cloaks and walk from town to town in sandals learning via 1st century schooling practices. Of course, we need to make sure we take dirt roads...because paved roads would be to comfy and undisciple-like. The kingdom of God does not consist of eating, drinking or home size. You are majoring in minors here. Greed is a sin. Having a job or running water is not.

Where did I say to quite spreading the gospel?

You said I need to quit my job to be a disciple. My response was, "What if my job involves spreading the Gospel with others?" Should I quit my job to meet your understanding of Christ's standards to be a disciple if my job revolves around spreading the Gospel?

The instructions from Jesus are to do kingdom work; to work for our heavenly father, and let Him provide for our every need.

What if my job is the means by which God desires to provide for my needs? I mean, after all, Paul did tell us to work with our hands and earn money so we could be generous to others.... Oh..and last I checked, the Proverbs are filled with lessons about working diligently with our hands every day...you know...sowing and reaping. I dont think provision from God has to be miraculous or non-job related to be valid. I give thanks to God for my job and I see my pay as provision from His hand.

No, this seems to be what you're focusing in on. I just asked a few questions on the subject to see what people thought about it. Looks like I hit a nerve; why does it bother you so much?

For the same reason I am bothered when Mormon's show up to my house telling me they have more information about Jesus.

I never said we mustn't work.

Perhaps you just are not a very good communicator.

 

[shnarkle]

To add insult to injury, I get to read what I usually find the rabidly anti Christian atheists, and agnostics spewing at me from time to time on a few of the different forums I occasionally post in. This is practically identical to the ridicule I get on how stupid Christianity is to them.

Take a gander at this:

Perhaps we should also add that all Christians must do greater miracles than Jesus did if they are a true believer. You raised any dead folk lately?

Yes. He also told them to go from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the ends of the earth proclaiming the resurrection. Have you been to Judea yet? He also told them to go into the countryside with no staff or money and just preach and allow the generosity of those they preach to be their provision. Is that what you do for a living? Certainly you don't have one of those....jobs...do you?

According to your logic, we must all forsake everything. So that means if you have a family, you have to abandon them if you want to follow Christ. In fact, Jesus said to hate your family if you want to be his disciple. Do you hate them? I mean, Jesus also said you have to take up your cross. Have you been crucified yet? Are you on the next plane to the Middle East to let ISIS crucify you?

For this to come from a self professed Christian is beyond my ability to understand or comprehend. For it to come from a moderator is truly insulting.