What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Are you scholars and Bible fans ready to start talking about the things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities that were created for him?
After Christ rose from the dead, he had authority in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth (Philippians 2:10).
Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power [delegated authority, implies the ability to make power felt. E.W. Bullinger] is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.
Could it be possible that it's the Christ who has the authority to use the power of God because God has made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ? And that would mean it would not be God who had the authority because He gave this authority to His Christ. Could it then be done by his faith (the faith of Jesus Christ) because it's he who has been given the authority? If this is true, then it would be by the authority of the risen Christ Jesus, and therefore by his believing that the power of God is brought to pass.
It seems clear to me now that I have a new nature which is the spirit of God. And that I am not in a battle between two natures nor do I need to get God to teach my spirit to teach my flesh. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians even though most have no idea what it is or how it works. The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and that it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. They have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and this is why they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain their old nature. They believe they have two natures.
It is written that we should ask in his name, which I have finally come to believe means to ask in his authority, which seems to me would mean to ask by representing him. The spirit of Christ is inside of us and therefore when I receive what I'm focused on in prayer, then I will be living within the authority of Jesus Christ, and thereby functioning as his representative. When I am close to the spirit of Christ, then I will function as a partner with the Lord whereby it becomes a joint effort. I believe the spirit of Christ is my new nature and therefore I have been able to function in it. To live in it, walk by it, and be in it. Most of my life I believed I was in a battle between what I thought was my old man fighting against what I thought was my new man. Now I'm not fighting. I moved right in the darn thing. It seems to me one cannot walk in or by the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks it's fighting against our new nature.
After Christ rose from the dead, he had authority in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth (Philippians 2:10).
Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power [delegated authority, implies the ability to make power felt. E.W. Bullinger] is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.
Could it be possible that it's the Christ who has the authority to use the power of God because God has made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ? And that would mean it would not be God who had the authority because He gave this authority to His Christ. Could it then be done by his faith (the faith of Jesus Christ) because it's he who has been given the authority? If this is true, then it would be by the authority of the risen Christ Jesus, and therefore by his believing that the power of God is brought to pass.
It seems clear to me now that I have a new nature which is the spirit of God. And that I am not in a battle between two natures nor do I need to get God to teach my spirit to teach my flesh. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians even though most have no idea what it is or how it works. The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and that it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. They have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and this is why they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain their old nature. They believe they have two natures.
It is written that we should ask in his name, which I have finally come to believe means to ask in his authority, which seems to me would mean to ask by representing him. The spirit of Christ is inside of us and therefore when I receive what I'm focused on in prayer, then I will be living within the authority of Jesus Christ, and thereby functioning as his representative. When I am close to the spirit of Christ, then I will function as a partner with the Lord whereby it becomes a joint effort. I believe the spirit of Christ is my new nature and therefore I have been able to function in it. To live in it, walk by it, and be in it. Most of my life I believed I was in a battle between what I thought was my old man fighting against what I thought was my new man. Now I'm not fighting. I moved right in the darn thing. It seems to me one cannot walk in or by the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks it's fighting against our new nature.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Read my signature....I am in no position to give mandates to anyone.....the scriptures do that. If you have no idea what Christ taught, how do you follow HIS mandates?
The invitation to follow him was given to his apostles. These were to carry on his work when he returned to his former place in heaven. These had to leave family businesses and occupations that were abandoned when they received their invitation. Not a simple thing at all.
To become a disciple of Christ required baptism, which was a public acknowledgement and evidence that these ones accepted Christ’s teachings. Again, it required knowledge of who Jesus was, and what it meant to become a Christian, because these had already undergone John's baptism. He was sent ahead of Jesus to "prepare the way" for him. Those who accepted Jesus as Messiah had to be baptized again in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:38)
Why did Jesus send his disciples out to preach? Why didn't the holy spirit just do that?
It was to give people the knowledge upon which God’s spirit would motivate some to act on what they had heard. (Matthew 10:11-14; Romans 10:14-15; Acts 5:42)
Not all even wanted to hear the message, in which case their ears and hearts remained closed. The 'dust was shaken off' and the disciples continued on to the next house. (Acts 20:20)
When someone wanted to know more, the disciples were to remain with them to impart more knowledge to them....to teach them and to make disciples of them. The knowledge would continue to be dispensed in the meetings of these Christians who studied God's word and benefited from the teaching of the apostles, who guided and directed the brotherhood from the central location in Jerusalem.
I “lecture” people? Is that what you think I do? I am a teacher and so I teach. God's word tells me what to teach....you seem to have an aversion to knowledge that appears to be deeper than your own. Why is that?
Presenting the word of God as I have studied it isn't lecturing? I do not force people to read what I write, nor do I believe that what I present is anything other than what God’s word teaches. Where have I not backed up what I present with scripture?
We know that Paul said that ‘all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching...and setting things straight’, (2 Timothy 3:16-17) so that we can know what God requires of us.
Are you suggesting that we do not need to read God’s word and fully understand it in order to follow Jesus?
Paul also wrote....
“For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account.” (Hebrews 4:12-23)
If people do not read God’s word and study what it it teaches, how will God’s spirit motivate the right response in those “rightly disposed for everlasting life”?
People are free to do whatever their hearts impel them to do in the study of God’s word. Jehovah has always provided teachers for his people.....so why would you dissuade people from studying according to their own capacity for understanding? Ignorance is the devil’s playground. The only thing that dispels ignorance is knowledge and understanding....both imparted by God's word and spirit.
Are you telling me that I have no right to provide what knowledge has been imparted to me?
Readers are welcome to make of it what they will.
Wow.....what a statement!.....all of the first Christians were Bible students because Jesus and his apostles taught from the Hebrew scriptures and often quoted them.
You sound as if knowledge on more than a superficial level is some sort of a threat to you.....
I find that rather sad TBH.
When people can't defend...they attack. That is what you have done here.....and in the next post.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Knowledge is never an impediment in any subject. It’s why we have institutions of higher learning. It’s why people pursue careers in various field that require a university education. Are you telling me that Bible knowledge is somehow not required if people want to learn about God and his Christ? Is the most important knowledge among the human race, not required for people to understand what it means to BE a Christian, rather than simply talking about what it might mean to certain individuals?
Isn't this why God provided teachers for his people? Jesus too provided teachers for his disciples in the apostles. These in turn taught others to carry on teaching in their absence. Unfortunately the foretold apostasy took Christian teaching in a very different direction to what Christ began. People need to hear the truth and only those who respond from the heart will have God’s spirit to guide them and teachers to teach them that truth. The “weeds” are thick out there.....how will we know what is truth if the “wheat” are not promoting the truth? Jesus appointed teachers in his absence. In the “time of the end”.....the time of Christ’s return.....he promised to appoint a “faithful and wise slave” to provide spiritual “food at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45) Only those who are “fed” by this slave will know the truth. God has only one channel and has always fed his people spiritually by that one means.
Are you now blowing your own trumpet?
I am not sure what you mean here...I tell it as I have learned it. I find it difficult to "dumb things down" for the willfully ignorant.
If there are "sheep", the Fine Shepherd will guide them to one truth....or don't you believe that? The only people who rail against knowledge are those who feel threatened by it. The more I learned, the more I wanted to know, and that is why I personified my responses....that was my personal journey. It might not be everyone's.
The command was to "make disciples, TEACHING them"...so that is what I do. How do your brethren carry out the great commission? I don't recall a Unitarian ever coming to my door with "the good news of the kingdom"....or with any other message for that matter.....I saw the JW's out preaching door to door, trying not to miss anyone with the message of the Kingdom. Some people hate them for it, but it was a command from Jesus to search out the worthy ones.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
When Paul said he "became all things to all people so that he might save some"...that was the goal. It didn't mean that everyone had to be catered to, to the point of not telling them the way it is. When I respond to someone who purports to have a knowledge of scripture, I am going to speak to them on that level. If I find someone who has no knowledge of scripture, I will take a very different approach.
My 50 years of study has proved to be enormously beneficial in my understanding of the scriptures. Its got nothing to do with pride, but a way to allow people to know that I am well educated and ready with answers for whatever questions they may have, because during those 50 years, I have asked them all.....and the Bible answered all of them.
My brotherhood all believe as I do, no matter what nation they occupy or language they speak. You will not find JW's arguing with one another over doctrinal issues because we all have the same teacher.....Jesus Christ, using the "slave" that he appointed to "feed" the other members of his household. (Matthew 24:45-46) Jesus will reward them for a job well done.
Since God is the one who invites us to come into a relationship with him by means of his son...he is the one who "draws" individuals to his truth (John 6:44).....they will all subscribe to the same beliefs with no divisions, and no dissension. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I too knew a Highway Patrolman who became one of Jehovah's Witnesses and he also had conscience issues with carrying a weapon, so he applied to another department and ended up being a police prosecutor. No weapon required....but still a member of the Police Department.
Conscience must play a role in our choice of employment. We cannot use weapons to shed blood and remain guiltless before God. (Isaiah 1:15) So that policeman, even though he had a weapon, hopefully would not have used it. Like the swords that Jesus told his disciples to buy on the night of his arrest....he did not intend for them to use these weapons but to demonstrate that even though they were armed, they would not resort to violence. When Peter drew his sword to defend Jesus at his arrest, he caused injury to the slave of the High Priest. Jesus told him to...“Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels? 54 In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must take place this way?”
Carrying a sword in those days was a common thing, but up to that point they were not armed.
It was prophesied that Jesus would be treated as a criminal and executed..... Jesus said..."Should I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?” (John 18:11) He knew what was ahead of him, and there was to be no resistance.
The only weapons justified are those in rural areas who use them to protect their herds and flocks from predators. But they can never be used on humans.
You were replacing a person (Christ) and His attributes, nature, and character, with a drivers license.
Not a good choice!
Being in the "form of God" is much more than you acknowledge.
That is a good question, Peterlag! It's in the Greek dictionary for everyone to read, and should be read.
The Greek word for "form" is "morphe" and refers to outward appearance in general. It is only used 3 times in the New Testament.
In Mark 16:12, it is used as "another form" when Christ' outer appearance was changed that He would be unrecognizable.
In Phil. 2:6, He exists in the "form of God." In Phil. 2:7, He exists in the "form of a servant."
The change that has taken place here must be taken into context. He existed in the "form of God" in heaven, and in the "form of a servant" on earth. In these 2 verses Paul tells us that Christ "made Himself of no reputation and took on the form of a servant."
This change is one of expression of who He was and who He became to be. He emptied Himself of His heavenly "form" and took on the earthly "form of a servant." He changed from the form of God to the form of a man, which means the entire being of who He was and who He became has changed, and not just in outward appearance.
the church was founded by Christ on Peter, the apostles and their successors before scripture was written by the church
The enemy was the pagan Roman Empire which christ conquered
Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5
Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20
Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5
Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20
Scripture at the time of the founding of the Church - by a Jew - was the Hebrew Bible.
"Human" is the stuff (nature) of humanity. It's the man part. Of the earth.
God is spirit. The spirit is of a different nature, it's the stuff inside the man part that moves him. It's nature is not earthly, but divine.
In the spiritual understanding of things, the spirit is the real part and the only part that is enduring, while the physical part is considered to be no more than a garment. Something to don and then put off.
“It rests on a misconception of the New Testament mode of speech and conception if we immediately infer that the declaration of Jesus, that he had glory with the Father before the world was created is simply and necessarily identical in meaning with the thought that he himself preexisted … According to the mode of speech and conception prevalent in the New Testament, a heavenly good, and so also a heavenly glory, can be conceived and spoken of as existing with God and belonging to a person, not because a person already exists and is invested with glory, but because the glory of God is in some way deposited and preserved for this person in heaven. We remember how, according to the report of Matthew, Jesus also speaks of the treasure (Matt. 6:20) or the reward (Matt. 5:12, 46; 6:1) which his disciples have in heaven with God … and further, how, in the description of the final judgment of the nations, the kingdom which those blessed of the Father shall inherit is described as one prepared for them from the creation of the world (Matt. 25:34); and how also (Col. 1:5 and 1 Peter 1:4) the hope of salvation of the Christian is represented as a blessing laid up in heaven for them … Jesus asks for himself not something arbitrary, but what was to be given according to God’s decree and what had always ideally belonged to him …; the presupposition for this declaration, however, is certainly the thought, which finds decided expression at the close of the prayer in verse 24, that Jesus himself, as the Messiah, did not indeed really exist from the beginning with God, but was the object of the love of God, of His loving thoughts, plans and purposes.”
(H.H. Wendt, The Teaching of Jesus, Vol. 2, pp. 169-172)
Are you saying that mortal man will cease being mortal man and will become immortal God?
Did I?
If I didn't, then I'm not. You know better than to insinuate that I said something that I didn't.
Mortal men are "mortal." Mortality is their lot. They live and they die. The spirit lives on. Don't confuse the term 'divinity' with being "God." There is only One God and His nature is divine. Man has a mortal (human) nature and into him God breathes His spirit, which is immortal and continues on for as long as God permits. Man does not ever 'become' immortal. His immortal spirit returns to God when his mortal flesh fails.
This sounds similar to a summary Dr. Cullmann gives of Plato.
“Our body is only an outer garment which, as long as we live, prevents our soul from moving feeling and from living in conformity to its proper eternal essence. It imposes upon the soul a law which is not appropriate to it. The soul, confined within the body, belongs to the eternal world. As long as we live, our soul finds itself in a prison, that is, in a body essentially alien to it. Death, in fact, is the great liberator. It looses the chains, since it leads the soul out of the prison of the body and back to its eternal home.”
(Oscar Cullmann, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?pp. 19-20)
I just asked a question. I wasn’t insinuating anything. You actually sound like Plato to me.
I still haven’t grasped what you think mortal man will become. I asked if you thought mortal man would become an ethereal spirit person. All I’m certain of is that you don’t believe mortal man will become immortal man.
The mortal man dies-- he is mortal.
The spiritual man doesn't die with him when the mortal man dies. The nature of that mortal man is human flesh. The spirit inside the mortal shell, sheds that shell and returns to God, not "as" God, but as spirit-- which is his nature. The mortal shell is cast off, the immortal spirit returns and stands judgment before God who determines if it should endure (remain immortal) or be destroyed.
When you put on your coat, your coat doesn't become you. It's just a covering for you.
You’re a Southern California man. Are you familiar with Herbert W. Armstrong and his son, Garner Ted Armstrong? The Worldwide Church of God? Pasadena, California.
They taught that there are two Gods in the God family. They further taught that the destiny of men was to become Gods in the God family.
- Status
Similar threads
