What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[GEN2REV]

What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

It means exactly the same thing as John 1:3, John 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Jesus is the Creator of all things and without Him was not anything made that was made.

 

[Peterlag]

It means exactly the same thing as John 1:3, John 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Jesus is the Creator of all things and without Him was not anything made that was made.

You are saying all things mean everything in the universe. But Colossians is not saying that. Colossians is saying thrones or powers or rulers or authorities. These things were created by him and for him to use in his new church called the body of Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, Philippians Two:13 For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

Walter

Many churches teach God called certain people because the New Testament has places where it talks about those who God called. I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call. In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand, and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation.

 

[GEN2REV]

You are saying all things mean everything in the universe. But Colossians is not saying that. Colossians is saying thrones or powers or rulers or authorities. These things were created by him and for him to use in his new church called the body of Christ.

No.

 

[quietthinker]

In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, Philippians Two:13 For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

Walter

Interesting selection of words Paul uses, ie 'in him, by him, through him'..... it tells a story.....can we hear it?

 

[Peterlag]

No.

Yes it says that right in the verse... powers, thrones, rulers and authorities. It does not say sun, moon, and oceans.

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes it says that right in the verse... powers, thrones, rulers and authorities. It does not say sun, moon, and oceans.

All things means all things. In heaven and earth.

All things.

Colossians 1:16

 

[Peterlag]

All things means all things. In heaven and earth.

All things.

Colossians 1:16

I said to my wife that the kids ate all the cookies. All here means all the cookies we had and not all the cookies in the entire world. You don't see this because you don't want to.

 

[GEN2REV]

I said to my wife that the kids ate all the cookies. All here means all the cookies we had and not all the cookies in the entire world. You don't see this because you don't want to.

GREAT analogy.

You must be right.

 

[Kermos]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

Since John wrote that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception (John 1:3), then this means that John includes "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities" of which Paul mentioned in Colossians 1:16.

Paul included that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception with "for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible" (Colossians 1:16), yet your heart erased the Truth (John 14:6).

We need to dig deeper into Colossians!

Jesus is the Firstborn among many brothers.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Now, let's focus a little more on Paul's writing subsequent to Colossians 1:15.

While Paul wrote the phrase "all creation" in the sentence "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians1:15), Paul also wrote the phrase "all things" in the sentences "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16); therefore, Jesus created all things, see the word "all", so Jesus is uncreated. This fits snugly with John 1:3.

See Paul's use of the phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

Now see Paul's use of the phrase "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

See Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15, and the context already explained.

Now see Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the Assembly, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things" (Colossians 1:18).

Paul intensifies and emphasizes that Jesus is the firstborn of the Assembly of God - see that "firstborn" occurs TWICE in the passage.

Paul is not talking about the genesis of Jesus, rather Paul is talking about Jesus being the genesis of the Assembly of God. This fits snugly with John 8:58.

Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything including the Assembly of God, and Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything which means that Jesus is uncreated. Again, this fits snugly with John 1:3 (and John 1-5).

Lord Jesus, truly Man, is the firstborn among the Assembly of God as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 1:3; moreover, Lord Jesus, truly God, is the perpetually existing creator Lord YHWH of absolutely everything as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 8:58.

Paul drives the message home that Jesus is the beginning of the Resurrection with "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) - see that Paul intensifies the true meaning of Colossians 1:15 by repeating the point in Colossians 1:18 - the point is that King Jesus, the Son of Man, is the Way (John 14:6) into the Resurrection for all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 specifically refers to the Resurrection, not Jesus being created, but truly Jesus being the Way in the Resurrection!

 

[Peterlag]

Since John wrote that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception (John 1:3), then this means that John includes "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities" of which Paul mentioned in Colossians 1:16.

Paul included that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception with "for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible" (Colossians 1:16), yet your heart erased the Truth (John 14:6).

We need to dig deeper into Colossians!

Jesus is the Firstborn among many brothers.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Now, let's focus a little more on Paul's writing subsequent to Colossians 1:15.

While Paul wrote the phrase "all creation" in the sentence "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians1:15), Paul also wrote the phrase "all things" in the sentences "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16); therefore, Jesus created all things, see the word "all", so Jesus is uncreated. This fits snugly with John 1:3.

See Paul's use of the phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

Now see Paul's use of the phrase "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

See Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15, and the context already explained.

Now see Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the Assembly, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things" (Colossians 1:18).

Paul intensifies and emphasizes that Jesus is the firstborn of the Assembly of God - see that "firstborn" occurs TWICE in the passage.

Paul is not talking about the genesis of Jesus, rather Paul is talking about Jesus being the genesis of the Assembly of God. This fits snugly with John 8:58.

Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything including the Assembly of God, and Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything which means that Jesus is uncreated. Again, this fits snugly with John 1:3 (and John 1-5).

Lord Jesus, truly Man, is the firstborn among the Assembly of God as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 1:3; moreover, Lord Jesus, truly God, is the perpetually existing creator Lord YHWH of absolutely everything as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 8:58.

Paul drives the message home that Jesus is the beginning of the Resurrection with "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) - see that Paul intensifies the true meaning of Colossians 1:15 by repeating the point in Colossians 1:18 - the point is that King Jesus, the Son of Man, is the Way (John 14:6) into the Resurrection for all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 specifically refers to the Resurrection, not Jesus being created, but truly Jesus being the Way in the Resurrection!

The opening of the gospel of John is a wonderful expression of God's love. God "...wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (Timothy 2:4). He authored the opening of John in such a way that it reveals the truth about Him and His plan for all of mankind and, at the same time, refutes Gnostic teaching. It says that from the beginning there was the logos (the reason, plan, power) which was with God. There was not another "god" existing with God, especially not a god opposed to God. Furthermore, God's plan was like God; it was divine. God's plan became flesh when God impregnated Mary. There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that not only refer back in time to God's work in the original creation, but also foreshadow the work of Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Noted Bible commentator F.F. Bruce argues for this interpretation:

It is not by accident that the Gospel begins with the same phrase as the book of Genesis. In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning" introduces the story of the old creation; here it introduces the story of the new creation. In both works of creation the agent is the Word of God. The Racovian Catechism, one of the great doctrinal works of the Unitarian movement of the 14th and 15th centuries, states that the word "beginning" in John 1:1 refers to the beginning of the new dispensation and thus is similar to Mark 1:1, which starts, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ..."

In the cited passage (John 1:1) wherein the Word is said to have been in the beginning, there is no reference to an antecedent eternity, without commencement; because mention is made here of a beginning, which is opposed to that eternity. But the word beginning, used absolutely, is to be understood of the subject matter under consideration. Thus, Daniel 8:1 (ASV), "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, even unto me, Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." John 15:27 (ASV), "And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 16:4, "...these things I said not unto you from the beginning because I was with you. And Acts 11:15 (ASV), "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." As then the matter of which John is treating is the gospel, or the things transacted under the gospel, nothing else ought to be understood here besides the beginning of the gospel; a matter clearly known to the Christians whom he addressed, namely the advent and preaching of John the Baptist, according to the testimony of all the evangelists [i.e., Matthew, Mark Luke and John], each of whom begins his history with the coming and preaching of the Baptist. Mark indeed (Chapter 1:1) expressly states that this was the beginning of the gospel. In like manner, John himself employs the word beginning, placed thus absolutely, in the introduction to his First Epistle, at which beginning he uses the same term (logos) Word, as if he meant to be his own interpreter ["That which is from the beginning... concerning the Word (logos) of life." 1 John 1:1].

 

[Kermos]

The opening of the gospel of John is a wonderful expression of God's love. God "...wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (Timothy 2:4). He authored the opening of John in such a way that it reveals the truth about Him and His plan for all of mankind and, at the same time, refutes Gnostic teaching. It says that from the beginning there was the logos (the reason, plan, power) which was with God. There was not another "god" existing with God, especially not a god opposed to God. Furthermore, God's plan was like God; it was divine. God's plan became flesh when God impregnated Mary. There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that not only refer back in time to God's work in the original creation, but also foreshadow the work of Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Noted Bible commentator F.F. Bruce argues for this interpretation:

It is not by accident that the Gospel begins with the same phrase as the book of Genesis. In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning" introduces the story of the old creation; here it introduces the story of the new creation. In both works of creation the agent is the Word of God. The Racovian Catechism, one of the great doctrinal works of the Unitarian movement of the 14th and 15th centuries, states that the word "beginning" in John 1:1 refers to the beginning of the new dispensation and thus is similar to Mark 1:1, which starts, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ..."

In the cited passage (John 1:1) wherein the Word is said to have been in the beginning, there is no reference to an antecedent eternity, without commencement; because mention is made here of a beginning, which is opposed to that eternity. But the word beginning, used absolutely, is to be understood of the subject matter under consideration. Thus, Daniel 8:1 (ASV), "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, even unto me, Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." John 15:27 (ASV), "And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 16:4, "...these things I said not unto you from the beginning because I was with you. And Acts 11:15 (ASV), "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." As then the matter of which John is treating is the gospel, or the things transacted under the gospel, nothing else ought to be understood here besides the beginning of the gospel; a matter clearly known to the Christians whom he addressed, namely the advent and preaching of John the Baptist, according to the testimony of all the evangelists [i.e., Matthew, Mark Luke and John], each of whom begins his history with the coming and preaching of the Baptist. Mark indeed (Chapter 1:1) expressly states that this was the beginning of the gospel. In like manner, John himself employs the word beginning, placed thus absolutely, in the introduction to his First Epistle, at which beginning he uses the same term (logos) Word, as if he meant to be his own interpreter ["That which is from the beginning... concerning the Word (logos) of life." 1 John 1:1].

Your heart erases that not only did the Apostle John write that the Word was with God but John continued that "the Word was God" in John 1:1 thus proclaiming Jesus is God, so this means the Word is the person of Jesus who manifested flesh and sojourned among men (John 1:14).

You unilaterally demote the Word into a mere "plan" thus you call the Word a liar for the Word declares His persistent existence prior to Abraham as "I AM" with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

Now, let's examine God's declaration about the Word which your writing opposes.

Jesus is the Word as illuminated in John 1:1-5, John 1:14, and Luke 1:1-2 - The word "Word" defined in scripture.

It is written "Your Word, O YHWH, is everlasting" (Psalm 119:89), so the "Word" mentioned in John 1:1 is eternal, thus uncreated.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word" (Luke 1:1-2).

Luke wrote "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2), and the "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle Thomas who humbly acknowledged "My Lord and my God" to to TO Jesus (John 20:28).

Not just "earwitnesses" of the Word, but they were also "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2). Luke does specifically declare that they SAW the Word - they saw Jesus for Jesus is the Word of God!

They were "eyewitnesses" of Lord Jesus Christ the Word.

In Luke 1:1-2, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

Luke further elaborates that the "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2) are also "servants of the Word" (Luke 1:2), so the "eyewitnesses" see and hear and serve the Word of God.

The "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle John who illuminates the Word is Jesus with "the Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14).

In John 1:14, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

Both the Apostle John and Luke illuminate that Jesus is the Word.

Thus John refers to Jesus in John 1:1-5 as the "Word" and "He" and "Him" and "Life" and "Light":

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the Life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
​

In John 1:1-5, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

The following describes how "Word", "He", "Him", "Life", and "Light" all refer to Jesus.

The first word of John 1:2 is "He", and that "He" is the "Word" in John 1:1, and that "He" in John 1:2 is the "Him" in John 1:3 and John 1:4; moreover, the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Life" in John 1:4, and the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Light" in John 1:4 and John 1:5.

Truly, we have a Spiritually accurate linguistic linkage from "Light" in John 1:5 back to "Word" in John 1:1.

Jesus says "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world" (John 9:5), so we have Jesus being the Light in John 1:4-5 and John 9:5.

God is Light (1 John 1:5), so, clearly, since Jesus is Light, then Jesus is YHWH God.

Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6), so we have Jesus being the Life in in John 1:4 and John 14:6.

John witnesses that Jesus is the Word with "the Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14), so we have John further identifying Jesus as the Word (Logos).

John knew of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), and John would not violate the commandment.

Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14), a.k.a. the Logos of Theos, and the Word of God is God for the Apostle proclaims "the Word was God" (John 1:1) which means the Word is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) because John has no other gods before YHWH God - not even "a god" which is your antichrist label for Jesus.

Jesus, truly God, is the God of Jesus, truly Man; moreover, Jesus, truly God, is God with the Father.

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion because Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

The Apostle John is not going to refer to Jesus as "a god" because such a thing results in two gods.

You subtract the fullness of "Word" in John 1:1; therefore, you adulterate the Apostle's writing.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Peterlag]

Your heart erases that not only did the Apostle John write that the Word was with God but John continued that "the Word was God" in John 1:1 thus proclaiming Jesus is God, so this means the Word is the person of Jesus who manifested flesh and sojourned among men (John 1:14).

You unilaterally demote the Word into a mere "plan" thus you call the Word a liar for the Word declares His persistent existence prior to Abraham as "I AM" with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

Now, let's examine God's declaration about the Word which your writing opposes.

Jesus is the Word as illuminated in John 1:1-5, John 1:14, and Luke 1:1-2 - The word "Word" defined in scripture.

It is written "Your Word, O YHWH, is everlasting" (Psalm 119:89), so the "Word" mentioned in John 1:1 is eternal, thus uncreated.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word" (Luke 1:1-2).

Luke wrote "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2), and the "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle Thomas who humbly acknowledged "My Lord and my God" to to TO Jesus (John 20:28).

Not just "earwitnesses" of the Word, but they were also "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2). Luke does specifically declare that they SAW the Word - they saw Jesus for Jesus is the Word of God!

They were "eyewitnesses" of Lord Jesus Christ the Word.

In Luke 1:1-2, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

Luke further elaborates that the "eyewitnesses" "of the Word" (Luke 1:2) are also "servants of the Word" (Luke 1:2), so the "eyewitnesses" see and hear and serve the Word of God.

The "eyewitnesses" includes people like the Apostle John who illuminates the Word is Jesus with "the Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14).

In John 1:14, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

Both the Apostle John and Luke illuminate that Jesus is the Word.

Thus John refers to Jesus in John 1:1-5 as the "Word" and "He" and "Him" and "Life" and "Light":

​

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the Life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

In John 1:1-5, the word "Word" is translated from the Greek word "Logos".

The following describes how "Word", "He", "Him", "Life", and "Light" all refer to Jesus.

The first word of John 1:2 is "He", and that "He" is the "Word" in John 1:1, and that "He" in John 1:2 is the "Him" in John 1:3 and John 1:4; moreover, the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Life" in John 1:4, and the "Him" in John 1:3 is the "Light" in John 1:4 and John 1:5.

Truly, we have a Spiritually accurate linguistic linkage from "Light" in John 1:5 back to "Word" in John 1:1.

Jesus says "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world" (John 9:5), so we have Jesus being the Light in John 1:4-5 and John 9:5.

God is Light (1 John 1:5), so, clearly, since Jesus is Light, then Jesus is YHWH God.

Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6), so we have Jesus being the Life in in John 1:4 and John 14:6.

John witnesses that Jesus is the Word with "the Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14), so we have John further identifying Jesus as the Word (Logos).

John knew of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), and John would not violate the commandment.

Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14), a.k.a. the Logos of Theos, and the Word of God is God for the Apostle proclaims "the Word was God" (John 1:1) which means the Word is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) because John has no other gods before YHWH God - not even "a god" which is your antichrist label for Jesus.

Jesus, truly God, is the God of Jesus, truly Man; moreover, Jesus, truly God, is God with the Father.

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion because Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

The Apostle John is not going to refer to Jesus as "a god" because such a thing results in two gods.

You subtract the fullness of "Word" in John 1:1; therefore, you adulterate the Apostle's writing.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

We agree that John writes that the Word was with God. And that John continues that "the Word was God" in John 1:1. But then you make the jump that John proclaimed that Jesus is God. And I don't see how you get to make that jump from the Greek word "logos" which is not the name for Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

GREAT analogy.

You must be right.

It goes to show how LANGUAGE USAGE is constantly at odds with your dogma.

 

[Kermos]

We agree that John writes that the Word was with God. And that John continues that "the Word was God" in John 1:1. But then you make the jump that John proclaimed that Jesus is God. And I don't see how you get to make that jump from the Greek word "logos" which is not the name for Jesus.

"The Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14).

There is no "jump" because the Apostle John clearly proclaims that Jesus is the Word.

This is abundantly clear in the post to which you replied!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

 

[Peterlag]

Interesting selection of words Paul uses, ie 'in him, by him, through him'..... it tells a story.....can we hear it?

I have come to realize that "in him" means in the spirit. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in or by the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. It's the same as having fellowship with Jesus Christ, which is also part of having the mind of Christ. Living in Christ is the same as being strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. There's a verse where Jesus says without me you can do nothing. Well, I'm never without him.

 

[Peterlag]

Since John wrote that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception (John 1:3), then this means that John includes "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities" of which Paul mentioned in Colossians 1:16.

Paul included that Jesus created absolutely everything without exception with "for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible" (Colossians 1:16), yet your heart erased the Truth (John 14:6).

We need to dig deeper into Colossians!

Jesus is the Firstborn among many brothers.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Now, let's focus a little more on Paul's writing subsequent to Colossians 1:15.

While Paul wrote the phrase "all creation" in the sentence "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians1:15), Paul also wrote the phrase "all things" in the sentences "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16); therefore, Jesus created all things, see the word "all", so Jesus is uncreated. This fits snugly with John 1:3.

See Paul's use of the phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

Now see Paul's use of the phrase "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

See Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15, and the context already explained.

Now see Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the Assembly, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things" (Colossians 1:18).

Paul intensifies and emphasizes that Jesus is the firstborn of the Assembly of God - see that "firstborn" occurs TWICE in the passage.

Paul is not talking about the genesis of Jesus, rather Paul is talking about Jesus being the genesis of the Assembly of God. This fits snugly with John 8:58.

Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything including the Assembly of God, and Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything which means that Jesus is uncreated. Again, this fits snugly with John 1:3 (and John 1-5).

Lord Jesus, truly Man, is the firstborn among the Assembly of God as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 1:3; moreover, Lord Jesus, truly God, is the perpetually existing creator Lord YHWH of absolutely everything as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 8:58.

Paul drives the message home that Jesus is the beginning of the Resurrection with "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) - see that Paul intensifies the true meaning of Colossians 1:15 by repeating the point in Colossians 1:18 - the point is that King Jesus, the Son of Man, is the Way (John 14:6) into the Resurrection for all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 specifically refers to the Resurrection, not Jesus being created, but truly Jesus being the Way in the Resurrection!

The verse does not say he created absolutely everything without exception. It says all things and then names "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities".

 

[quietthinker]

I have come to realize that "in him" means in the spirit. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in or by the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. It's the same as having fellowship with Jesus Christ, which is also part of having the mind of Christ. Living in Christ is the same as being strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. There's a verse where Jesus says without me you can do nothing. Well, I'm never without him.

sooo Peter, if 'in him' means being in the spirit, what would 'in Adam' mean?

 

[marks]

"The Word manifested flesh" (John 1:14).

There is no "jump" because the Apostle John clearly proclaims that Jesus is the Word.

This is abundantly clear in the post to which you replied!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

So simple a child can understand!

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

sooo Peter, if 'in him' means being in the spirit, what would 'in Adam' mean?

Good Question.

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.