What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Wrangler]

The Lord Jesus is gloriously the Creator: 'without Him was not anything made that was made' (John 1).

Without the hammer nothing was built. Doesn't make the hammer the builder.

 

[Wrangler]

There’s a significant difference between English translations published prior to 1611 and KJV in 1611.

The prologue in the Gospel of John is exhibit A.

Thanks for posting this! Great insight.

Exhibit A: Undermines trinitarianism (Word's are WHAT's not WHO's and Tyndale properly refers to it as an it)

1In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.​

 

[Matthias]

Thanks for posting this! Great insight.

Exhibit A: Undermines trinitarianism (Word's are WHAT's not WHO's and Tyndale properly refers to it as an it)

1In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.​

Most people simply aren’t aware of the difference because they haven’t read early English translations. When they hear what those translations say they are often shocked and angry.

I’ve had two prime examples of this experience occur recently on these forums. In the first instance, the person told me the Geneva Bible (as well as Tyndale’s translation and others like it) was disrespectful of Jesus and blasphemous. In the second instance, the person told me that I was falsifying scripture when I did nothing more than quote the Geneva Bible.

The Geneva Bible is a Protestant, trinitarian, translation. “The Cadillac of English Bibles” (my characterization of it) arising in the Protestant Reformation.

 

[Matthias]

“All but forgotten today, the Geneva Bible was the most widely read and influential English Bible of the 16th and 17th centuries. It was one of the Bible’s taken to America on the Mayflower.

Mary 1 was Queen of England and Ireland from 1553 until her death in 1558. Her executions of Protestants caused her opponents to give her the sobriquet ‘Bloody Mary.’ It was her persecution that caused the Marian Exile which drove 800 English scholars to the European continent, where a number of them gathered in Geneva, Switzerland. There a team of scholars lead by William Whittingham, and assisted by Miles Coverdale, Christopher Goodman Anthony Gilby, John Knox, and Thomas Sampson, produced The Geneva Bible, based on Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and a revision of William Tyndale’s New Testament, which first appeared in 1526. The Geneva Bible New Testament was published in 1557, with the complete Bible in 1560.

A superb translation, it was the product of the best Protestant scholars of the day and became the Bible of choice for many of the greatest writers and thinkers of their time. Men such as William Shakespeare, John Bunyan, and John Milton used the Geneva Bible in their writings.

The Geneva Bible is unique among all other Bibles. It was the first Bible to use chapters and numbered verses and became the most popular version of its time because of its extensive marginal notes. These notes, written by Reformation leaders including John Calvin and others, were intended to help explain and interpret the Scriptures for the average reader.

With its variety of scriptural study guides and aids - which included cross-reference verse citations, introductions to each book of the Bible, maps, tables, woodcut illustrations, indexes, and other features - the Geneva Bible is regarded as history’s first study Bible.

In 2006, Tollie Lege Press released a version of the 1599 Geneva Bible with modern spellings as part of its 1599 Geneva Bible restoration project. The original cross references were retained as well as the study notes by the Protestant Reformation leaders. In addition, the Old English glossary was included in the updated version.”

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

Bold and underlining is mine.

This summary of the Geneva Bible from Bible Gateway doesn’t jibe with “disrespectful, blasphemous, falsifying scripture”.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well, let's look at these three verses...

Isaiah 57:15...
Who is the "high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy that dwells in the high and holy place"?
Who is "him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit"? Which one is God?

Psalm 138:6... Does not say God is humble.

Job 22:29... Does not say God is humble.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

>God is humble. Here you have God, Who is the high and lofty One
, Who dwells in heaven with Him who is also of a contrite and humble Spirit.

Is there one person here or two. Who is Him?
The pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word. It also supports John 1:1. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think the trinity folks are missing a whole lot of stuff on how they understand the Scriptures. By that I mean God cannot be humble which is why there's no verse anywhere in the Bible that says He can be. Just sit back and think about what God being humble would mean. Who would He be humble to? Who would He bow to? Who would He submit to?

That is why Jesus, being God, confounds you. We see God in Him, an exact expression and illumination of God in the flesh, Who relinquished His glory, put it aside temporarily as a man, a humble servant. Likewise, we are to approach God in humility. This is Christ-like, godly.
As I said, love, grace, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, gentleness comes from a contrite and humble spirit. Love is not proud, does not seek its own. You can't force anyone to love you, it must come willingly, freely. God is humble, He does not demand our love, He asks, stands at the door and knocks. The invitation is to all. Once believe, He demands obedience that we continually fail. He did command you to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, but I guess you just side stepped that one, Aye? I think there still remains resistance, rebelliousness towards Jesus. Remember if you dishonor the Son, you dishonor the Father.

But enough is enough, it seems to be an impenetrable wall between us. I'm done.

 

[Peterlag]

Most people simply aren’t aware of the difference because they haven’t read early English translations. When they hear what those translations say they are often shocked and angry.

I’ve had two prime examples of this experience occur recently on these forums. In the first instance, the person told me the Geneva Bible (as well as Tyndale’s translation and others like it) was disrespectful of Jesus and blasphemous. In the second instance, the person told me that I was falsifying scripture when I did nothing more than quote the Geneva Bible.

The Geneva Bible is a Protestant, trinitarian, translation. “The Cadillac of English Bibles” (my characterization of it) arising in the Protestant Reformation.

I found a Bible that I really liked and so I read the whole New Testament just a year ago. But boy was it a trinity Bible. I have spent most of my life as a King James guy. So what Bible is not trinitarian?

 

[Matthias]

I found a Bible that I really liked and so I read the whole New Testament just a year ago. But boy was it a trinity Bible. I have spent most of my life as a King James guy. So what Bible is not trinitarian?

The Bible is a collection of Jewish writings.

 

[Matthias]

I found a Bible that I really liked and so I read the whole New Testament just a year ago. But boy was it a trinity Bible. I have spent most of my life as a King James guy. So what Bible is not trinitarian?

The Bible was written by Jewish monotheists, not by trinitarians.

Most translations of the Bible are produced by trinitarian scholars, but that doesn’t make the Bible trinitarian.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says there is one God and one Lord and one spirit. This verse teaches exactly what the Jews expected based on the Old Testament and what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others taught: that there was one God, one Lord, and one spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says “for us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” This simple and straightforward language elucidates that the Father is God and the Son is “Lord” making a clear differentiation between the two.

Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.” God is greater than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are. 1 Corinthians 3:23 says “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” When the Bible says “you are Christ’s” it's saying “you belong to Christ” and many English versions say exactly that (i.e., CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET; NJB; NLT). So the verse is saying “and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). It seems apparent that Jesus cannot be God and belong to God at the same time.

 

[Peterlag]

The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30) CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth,

10-27-22
Hello Peterlag, References On The Word Made Flesh And how Jesus Jesus Came Into Existence:

John One-4, 5-18

The Deity Of Christ

1 In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Matthew One:18-25

Jesus Jesus Came Into Existence:

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Love, Walter

 

[Peterlag]

I

10-27-22
Hello Peterlag, References On The Word Made Flesh And how Jesus Jesus Came Into Existence:

John One-4, 5-18

The Deity Of Christ

1 In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Matthew One:18-25

Jesus Jesus Came Into Existence:

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Love, Walter

I have a thread on this John 1 that should be on the same first page as this post is. John 1 is talking about the logos and that is not Jesus.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I


I have a thread on this John 1 that should be on the same first page as this post is. John 1 is talking about the logos and that is not Jesus.

10-27-22
Hello Peterlag,

This is our understanding:

The Origin of the Logos of God Christ Himself admitted that the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). He admitted that the Father was (and is) "the only true God" (John 17:3), who sent Him. He calls himself "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14). Did the Logos have a "beginning"? The Greek word translated "beginning" in this verse means "first in a series," as its primary meaning. The same truth is indicated in Colossians, chapter one, where we read of Christ's pre-existence: "Who is the image of the invisible God" (Col.1:15).

Now an "image" is a copy, or a "likeness" -- not the original! Continuing: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF 201 EVERY CREATURE" (Col.1:15). Notice! The One who became Christ Himself was an image of the True God -- a reproduction, or "copy." As such, we read in the book of Hebrews, He was made "the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON" -- or character (Heb.1:1-3). Thus Christ or the Logos was the "firstborn of EVERY creature." He was the firstborn of God -- the first to "qualify" to become a very "Son of God" and a member of the Godhead, aeons ago, when He proved Himself and His loyalty to the Father -- the Father proclaimed Him to be His "Firstborn." This was not automatic. Character is never "automatic." It is based on choices, decisions, and actions.

Thus the One who became Christ, aeons ago, was created out of the Father's own essence, of His own Spirit, to be His companion -- a "Mighty One." When He proved Himself, He was granted powers from God the Father to sit with Him in His Throne -- He became a Co-Regent with the Father. He became "very God," as the Father is "God," because the Father proclaimed Him to be His "Son," and gave Him authority over all things, and imparted to Him authority as Co-Creator! Therefore we read of the Logos, that it was by him "also he [the Father] made the worlds," and who now "upholds all things by the word of his power" (Heb.1;2-3), who has also "purged our sins," and "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (v.3); "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent NAME than they" (Heb.1:4). At some distant point, before the Creation as we know it, God the Father created - - or "pro-created," from His own essence -- the "Logos."

The Logos, or "Word," grew up, matured, and became the "Son of God," and eventually God shared His very own authority as "God" with Him. Therefore, we read in the book of John that in "a" beginning, as the Greek should read, there was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was [i.e., had become] God (see John 1:1-3). The Logos, the One who became Christ, at this earlier time -- after proving Himself and qualifying through developing perfect, righteous CHARACTER, which cannot be created instantaneously -- became the second member of the "Elohim," or "Godhead" and participated in the creation of this present Universe (Heb.1:1-3). Through tests and trials of which we have no direct knowledge, and through "much tribulation" (Acts 14:22), He qualified at that ancient epoch to become "Elohim" together with the Father! Therefore, we read in Genesis, chapter one, "In [a] beginning, GOD [Elohim, meaning "The mighty Ones"] created the [present] heavens and the earth" (Gen.1:1). We read, further, that God said, "Let US make man [mankind] in OUR IMAGE, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).

By this time, then, the Logos had qualified and become a Co-Creator with the Father! Together they made the Universe, and later mankind, as is depicted in Genesis, chapter one. The Logos had become "the brightness" of the glory of God the Father, and His "express image" in character (v.3). Therefore He has become "so much better than the angels," and "by inheritance obtained [qualified for] a more excellent name than they" 202 (Heb.1:4). He became God's true Son by creation, so that the Father said of Him, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee," and "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son" (v.5). Paul alludes to the origin of the One who became Christ, the Logos of God, when he wrote that Christ or the Logos "is the image of the invisible God," and "the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible . . . And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who IS the BEGINNING . . ." (Colossians 1:15-18).

Thus the Logos, who later became our Saviour and Messiah, assisted the Father in creation of this present Universe. As we read in John: "In [a] beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him [the present Universe]; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In his was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-4).

Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

Yes, I have read the above and replied on Today at 3:17 PM#552

Walter

 

[Peterlag]

10-27-22
Hello Peterlag,

This is our understanding:

The Origin of the Logos of God Christ Himself admitted that the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). He admitted that the Father was (and is) "the only true God" (John 17:3), who sent Him. He calls himself "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14). Did the Logos have a "beginning"? The Greek word translated "beginning" in this verse means "first in a series," as its primary meaning. The same truth is indicated in Colossians, chapter one, where we read of Christ's pre-existence: "Who is the image of the invisible God" (Col.1:15).

Now an "image" is a copy, or a "likeness" -- not the original! Continuing: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF 201 EVERY CREATURE" (Col.1:15). Notice! The One who became Christ Himself was an image of the True God -- a reproduction, or "copy." As such, we read in the book of Hebrews, He was made "the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON" -- or character (Heb.1:1-3). Thus Christ or the Logos was the "firstborn of EVERY creature." He was the firstborn of God -- the first to "qualify" to become a very "Son of God" and a member of the Godhead, aeons ago, when He proved Himself and His loyalty to the Father -- the Father proclaimed Him to be His "Firstborn." This was not automatic. Character is never "automatic." It is based on choices, decisions, and actions.

Thus the One who became Christ, aeons ago, was created out of the Father's own essence, of His own Spirit, to be His companion -- a "Mighty One." When He proved Himself, He was granted powers from God the Father to sit with Him in His Throne -- He became a Co-Regent with the Father. He became "very God," as the Father is "God," because the Father proclaimed Him to be His "Son," and gave Him authority over all things, and imparted to Him authority as Co-Creator! Therefore we read of the Logos, that it was by him "also he [the Father] made the worlds," and who now "upholds all things by the word of his power" (Heb.1;2-3), who has also "purged our sins," and "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (v.3); "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent NAME than they" (Heb.1:4). At some distant point, before the Creation as we know it, God the Father created - - or "pro-created," from His own essence -- the "Logos."

The Logos, or "Word," grew up, matured, and became the "Son of God," and eventually God shared His very own authority as "God" with Him. Therefore, we read in the book of John that in "a" beginning, as the Greek should read, there was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was [i.e., had become] God (see John 1:1-3). The Logos, the One who became Christ, at this earlier time -- after proving Himself and qualifying through developing perfect, righteous CHARACTER, which cannot be created instantaneously -- became the second member of the "Elohim," or "Godhead" and participated in the creation of this present Universe (Heb.1:1-3). Through tests and trials of which we have no direct knowledge, and through "much tribulation" (Acts 14:22), He qualified at that ancient epoch to become "Elohim" together with the Father! Therefore, we read in Genesis, chapter one, "In [a] beginning, GOD [Elohim, meaning "The mighty Ones"] created the [present] heavens and the earth" (Gen.1:1). We read, further, that God said, "Let US make man [mankind] in OUR IMAGE, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).

By this time, then, the Logos had qualified and become a Co-Creator with the Father! Together they made the Universe, and later mankind, as is depicted in Genesis, chapter one. The Logos had become "the brightness" of the glory of God the Father, and His "express image" in character (v.3). Therefore He has become "so much better than the angels," and "by inheritance obtained [qualified for] a more excellent name than they" 202 (Heb.1:4). He became God's true Son by creation, so that the Father said of Him, "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee," and "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son" (v.5). Paul alludes to the origin of the One who became Christ, the Logos of God, when he wrote that Christ or the Logos "is the image of the invisible God," and "the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible . . . And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who IS the BEGINNING . . ." (Colossians 1:15-18).

Thus the Logos, who later became our Saviour and Messiah, assisted the Father in creation of this present Universe. As we read in John: "In [a] beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him [the present Universe]; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In his was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-4).

Walter

If Jesus were God. Then the Scriptures would come right out and say it and there would be loads of reasons why. There would be no guessing about words and logos and wondering for 400 years before the Catholics introduced it.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

If Jesus were God. Then the Scriptures would come right out and say it and there would be loads of reasons why. There would be no guessing about words and logos and wondering for 400 years before the Catholics introduced it.

Hi Peterlag, Jesus said Himself that GOD is a spirit, what was he saying to the woman at the well? only for worship or identifying that His Father's spirit was in Him?

Walter

 

[quietthinker]

What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
The spirit of God brooded over the waters before the creation of the world. When all is established God said let us make man in our image. Us and our are plural. Then we read the above quoted scripture which tells us that it was the Son who was the creative element of the Father, the Son and the Spirit. Not that difficult to put together.
All things would includ everything in the created order....including the angels.

 

[Peterlag]

Hi Peterlag, Jesus said Himself that GOD is a spirit, what was he saying to the woman at the well? only for worship or identifying that His Father's spirit was in Him?

Walter

The spirit of God is in me too. And I'm not God nor was my spirit here before I was. God created my spirit for me when I got saved. He did not have one picked out for me with my name on it a trillion years ago.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

The spirit of God is in me too. And I'm not God nor was my spirit here before I was. God created my spirit for me when I got saved. He did not have one picked out for me with my name on it a trillion years ago.

In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, Philippians Two:13 For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

Walter