What does it mean to be born again?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...but then the soul that sins...it must die. Why? It must die in order to fufill the purpose of our creation...which is fellowship with God. It's the same death as Adam experienced in the garden when he sinned against God.


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Most bible "eisegetes" negate one side of the equation to get to the other. But both and true and necessary to have eternal life. We sin...therefore we need to die in the part of us that sins. When we go to the cross to be dealt with in the outer man, the inner man is translated into eternal life IN Christ.

The evil that we are being tempted with is to say that the wages of sin are no longer death! Why? Grace? NO, grace is the power of the cross given to us to destroy sin. No, a hatred of the truth causes people to preserve their flesh in the error in thinking they have eternal life without passing through death. So they deny the power of the cross to kill the sin factory in our flesh. Or they claim to have received something they haven't as if they had.
Yes, excellent. Thank you. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,610
4,883
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
It's Greek...He became a curse for us. The curse of the law is to be told to uphold something that can't be done...in one's own strength.

From the OT... Deut. 21:22,23 "If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole
23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

The curse itself is the capital offense being attributed to someone. That person was not to be left on display.

Jesus was exposed as if He was cursed...and He was...by men...but He took on the curse of the law by having victory over the flesh. It was given to men to get it very wrong. However, what men got wrong, God got right...His body on the cross was a marker of victory over the flesh...so that we too could have victory and overcome the curse of the law on ourselves by joining Him on the cross.

For us, the cross is not a symbol of shame and a curse....no...it is the symbol of victory as the POWER that crucifies our outer man ....giving our inner man access to God.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

וַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ

רְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:


Rashi--And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.

Are you reading Sophiees blog?


Yet it pleased Adonai to bruise Him.
He caused Him to suffer.
If He makes His soul a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the will of Adonai will succeed by His hand.

So who is responsible for the death of the Messiah? “The Jews”? As so many Catholics have accused us of in the past? Maybe the Romans? They were the ones who actually crucified him? No.

“God was pleased to bruise him”. God is the only one able to forgive and bring salvation to the world and he turned himself into a sacrifice. What kind of sacrifice? A guilt offering. The death of the Messiah was no accident – God used his own stiff-necked people as priests in order to bring about the forgiveness of sins not only for his people Israel, but for the whole of humanity. In contrast to the Yom Kippur sacrifice which was only valid until the following year and just ‘covered over’ sin, the atonement of the Messiah took away our sin once and for all! None of us as human beings are perfect – we are not able to be that perfect sacrifice. Only God himself could do that.
After that comes a very interesting statement:


“He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,”

In spite of the fact he would be killed, he would also prolong his days. He would rise again from the dead and would see the “fruit of his seed”, planted in his resurrection.

As a result of the anguish of His soul
He will see it and be satisfied by His knowledge.
The Righteous One, My Servant will make many righteous
and He will bear their iniquities.

The Messiah would see and be satisfied by his labor, because many would be made righteous by the suffering he endured, as a righteous man when he took on himself the sins and iniquities of many. All who recognize him as the Messiah will be his “seed” in a spiritual sense.

Therefore I will give Him a portion with the great,
and He will divide the spoil with the mighty—
because He poured out His soul to death,
and was counted with transgressors.
For He bore the sin of many,
and interceded for the transgressors.

The Messiah was the one interceding for us an advocate for us as sinners before a holy God. The Messiah took on his shoulders the sin of all who believe in him. It’s an encouraging prophecy of hope and a future. God is not just interested in forgiveness expressed in words but also demonstrated in actions. That’s why he took on the appearance of a servant and took the punishment that we deserve on himself.

THE JEWISH SAGES THOUGHT ISAIAH 53 WAS ABOUT THE MESSIAH
It’s important to understand we’re not just talking about a Christian interpretation here – the Jewish Sages of ancient times also always interpreted Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah. In fact, the well-known term “Messiah ben Yosef” is actually from this very text.
In the ancient Jewish translation of Yonatan ben Uzziel (Targum Jonathan) from the first century opened the section with the words “The Anointed Servant” that is to say Ben Uzziel connected the chapter to the Messiah, the Anointed One.
Rabbi Yitzhak Abravanel who lived centuries ago admitted that “Yonatan ben Uzziel’s interpretation that it was about the coming Messiah was also the opinion of the Sages (of blessed memory) as can be seen in much of their commentary.”

The Book of the Zohar recognizes the principle of substitution that the suffering of the Messiah would come to take the suffering that others deserved for their sins. On the verse “Surely He has borne our griefs”, the Book of the Zohar says, “There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel: All of these come and rest upon Him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law.”

Midrash Konen in discussing Isaiah 53 puts the following words in the mouth of Elijah the prophet: “Thus says the Messiah: Endure the sufferings and the sentence your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Yisroel. Thus it is written, “He was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities”, until the time the end comes.”
Tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud (98b), writes about the name of the Messiah
“His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”.
In Midrash Tanhuma it says, “Rabbi Nachman says, it speaks of no one but the Messiah, the Son of David of whom it is said, here a man called “the plant”, and Jonathan translated it to mean the Messiah and it is rightly said, “man of sorrows, acquainted with grief”.
Midrash Shumel says this about Isaiah 53: “The suffering was divided into three parts: One for the generation of the Patriarchs, one for the generation of Shmad, and one for the King Messiah”.
The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

The deeper we go into this prayer for Yom Kippur the more significant it gets. The prayer brings the sense that the Messiah left his people. “The righteous Messiah turned [away]”. That is to say, the Messiah has already come and left. Also, the Messiah suffered in the place of the people, and the sins of people were put on him then after the Messiah suffered, he left them that was the reason for their concern and so the people are praying for his return. A large part of this prayer is taken straight out of Isaiah 53, so from this we can prove that up to the 7th century the Jewish perception – also among the rabbis – was still that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah.
In Genesis Rabbah, Rabbi Moshe haDarshan says that God enabled the Messiah to save souls but that together with that, he would suffer greatly. Also Maimonides relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah in his Epistle to Yemen. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai wrote, “And Messiah of Ephraim died there and Israel mourns for him as it is written: ‘He is despised and rejected of men’, and he goes back into hiding, for it says: ‘and we hid, as it were, our faces from him’.”
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,610
4,883
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

וַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ

רְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:


Rashi--And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.

Are you reading Sophiees blog?


Yet it pleased Adonai to bruise Him.
He caused Him to suffer.
If He makes His soul a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the will of Adonai will succeed by His hand.

So who is responsible for the death of the Messiah? “The Jews”? As so many Catholics have accused us of in the past? Maybe the Romans? They were the ones who actually crucified him? No.

“God was pleased to bruise him”. God is the only one able to forgive and bring salvation to the world and he turned himself into a sacrifice. What kind of sacrifice? A guilt offering. The death of the Messiah was no accident – God used his own stiff-necked people as priests in order to bring about the forgiveness of sins not only for his people Israel, but for the whole of humanity. In contrast to the Yom Kippur sacrifice which was only valid until the following year and just ‘covered over’ sin, the atonement of the Messiah took away our sin once and for all! None of us as human beings are perfect – we are not able to be that perfect sacrifice. Only God himself could do that.
After that comes a very interesting statement:


“He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,”

In spite of the fact he would be killed, he would also prolong his days. He would rise again from the dead and would see the “fruit of his seed”, planted in his resurrection.

As a result of the anguish of His soul
He will see it and be satisfied by His knowledge.
The Righteous One, My Servant will make many righteous
and He will bear their iniquities.

The Messiah would see and be satisfied by his labor, because many would be made righteous by the suffering he endured, as a righteous man when he took on himself the sins and iniquities of many. All who recognize him as the Messiah will be his “seed” in a spiritual sense.

Therefore I will give Him a portion with the great,
and He will divide the spoil with the mighty—
because He poured out His soul to death,
and was counted with transgressors.
For He bore the sin of many,
and interceded for the transgressors.

The Messiah was the one interceding for us an advocate for us as sinners before a holy God. The Messiah took on his shoulders the sin of all who believe in him. It’s an encouraging prophecy of hope and a future. God is not just interested in forgiveness expressed in words but also demonstrated in actions. That’s why he took on the appearance of a servant and took the punishment that we deserve on himself.

THE JEWISH SAGES THOUGHT ISAIAH 53 WAS ABOUT THE MESSIAH
It’s important to understand we’re not just talking about a Christian interpretation here – the Jewish Sages of ancient times also always interpreted Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah. In fact, the well-known term “Messiah ben Yosef” is actually from this very text.
In the ancient Jewish translation of Yonatan ben Uzziel (Targum Jonathan) from the first century opened the section with the words “The Anointed Servant” that is to say Ben Uzziel connected the chapter to the Messiah, the Anointed One.
Rabbi Yitzhak Abravanel who lived centuries ago admitted that “Yonatan ben Uzziel’s interpretation that it was about the coming Messiah was also the opinion of the Sages (of blessed memory) as can be seen in much of their commentary.”

The Book of the Zohar recognizes the principle of substitution that the suffering of the Messiah would come to take the suffering that others deserved for their sins. On the verse “Surely He has borne our griefs”, the Book of the Zohar says, “There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel: All of these come and rest upon Him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law.”

Midrash Konen in discussing Isaiah 53 puts the following words in the mouth of Elijah the prophet: “Thus says the Messiah: Endure the sufferings and the sentence your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Yisroel. Thus it is written, “He was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities”, until the time the end comes.”
Tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud (98b), writes about the name of the Messiah
“His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”.
In Midrash Tanhuma it says, “Rabbi Nachman says, it speaks of no one but the Messiah, the Son of David of whom it is said, here a man called “the plant”, and Jonathan translated it to mean the Messiah and it is rightly said, “man of sorrows, acquainted with grief”.
Midrash Shumel says this about Isaiah 53: “The suffering was divided into three parts: One for the generation of the Patriarchs, one for the generation of Shmad, and one for the King Messiah”.
The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

The deeper we go into this prayer for Yom Kippur the more significant it gets. The prayer brings the sense that the Messiah left his people. “The righteous Messiah turned [away]”. That is to say, the Messiah has already come and left. Also, the Messiah suffered in the place of the people, and the sins of people were put on him then after the Messiah suffered, he left them that was the reason for their concern and so the people are praying for his return. A large part of this prayer is taken straight out of Isaiah 53, so from this we can prove that up to the 7th century the Jewish perception – also among the rabbis – was still that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah.
In Genesis Rabbah, Rabbi Moshe haDarshan says that God enabled the Messiah to save souls but that together with that, he would suffer greatly. Also Maimonides relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah in his Epistle to Yemen. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai wrote, “And Messiah of Ephraim died there and Israel mourns for him as it is written: ‘He is despised and rejected of men’, and he goes back into hiding, for it says: ‘and we hid, as it were, our faces from him’.”
The one "drunk" in his own ego is you Epi--you are not as smart as you think you are.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johann reminds me of the baby goat videos on YouTube where they are always banging heads with the others and trying to take some cherished high place and knock everyone else from the spot. Except the baby goats are cute rather than disgusting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can’t figure out how men can so easily be almost…controlled by a religious spirit/spirit of religiosity and be so blind to it…it’s such a bitter and hypocritical spirit.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,899
19,474
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I can’t figure out how men can so easily be almost…controlled by a religious spirit/spirit of religiosity and be so blind to it…it’s such a bitter and hypocritical spirit.
A man sees a dollar on the ground...he picks it up and walks on. A man needs as ego boost and sees a spirit just lying there. :rolleyes:
 

Rita

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 20, 2020
3,641
6,527
113
66
South
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Would you like this thread to remain open !?
I suggest you discuss the subject rather than the person who is making the post …..perhaps re read the forum rules, and it doesn’t matter who you are , they apply to everyone here !!
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,470
3,521
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Any unbiased appraisal will see that the unruliness is provided by the crows who circle over the threads in order to hurl abuse on the truth.

You have the Father all wrong. He does not champion one person's flesh over the other. He is NOT a respecter of persons. Fear the Lord and learn some wisdom.
Not sure if I'm understanding this but are you saying He is chastising all flesh the same, both believers and unbelievers? The bible says the whole world lies under the wrath of God, and that the wrath of God abideth on those who believe not. Believers are not under wrath, and neither are we appointed to wrath in the future, but the judgments/chastisements we are subject to, the Lord works together for our good.
 
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: marks and Laurina

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,610
4,883
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Would you like this thread to remain open !?
I suggest you discuss the subject rather than the person who is making the post …..perhaps re read the forum rules, and it doesn’t matter who you are , they apply to everyone here !!
Was this addressed to me @Rita?
The subject is first and foremost and so are the scriptures, the ones deviating from this are two prominent members, should you go through the posts starting from page 1.

This is to clarify my position, since I'm not here to insult, ridicule, and mock members.

Johann.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks and Lizbeth

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,470
3,521
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
That the early church was predominantly Jewish?
Your response didn't seem to have anything to do with my post that you quoted. Of course the early church was Jewish, never said it wasn't.

I can't discern the "conversion" of those you are talking about, whether any of them were genuine conversions by the Holy Spirit or if they were merely persuaded through logic to come to a mental assent and acceptance of a Christian religion. People "choose" religions or cults to join all the time. It doesn't bode well for that one who ended up in Catholicism, that to me is sad and very concerning for his soul.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,610
4,883
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Was this addressed to me @Rita?
The subject is first and foremost and so are the scriptures, the ones deviating from this are two prominent members, should you go through the posts starting from page 1.

This is to clarify my position, since I'm not here to insult, ridicule, and mock members.

Johann.
Thank you @Lizbeth you are standing for truth, as it is written in Scriptures, great to be with you, working side by side.
J.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: marks and Lizbeth

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,470
3,521
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The Jew understands human righteousness. But they take it too far... God builds on an actual righteousness...a righteous attitude...of humility and godly fear.
Oh, I think we should just simply believe and receive what the bible simply says.....that the Jews (and really anyone who merely has 'religion' instead of knowing God) were seeking to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to the righteousness of God in Christ. And that they were omitting to mix their righteousness with FAITH. That is what the gospel according to Jesus Christ teaches and it doesn't seem to agree with the gospel according to Episkopos.

If there is any TRUE humility and Godly fear (as opposed to will-worship, and I have to wonder if some here know the difference) then it's because of FAITH. There is no true humility and Godly fear apart from FAITH.
 
Last edited:

Rita

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 20, 2020
3,641
6,527
113
66
South
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Was this addressed to me @Rita?
The subject is first and foremost and so are the scriptures, the ones deviating from this are two prominent members, should you go through the posts starting from page 1.

This is to clarify my position, since I'm not here to insult, ridicule, and mock members.

Johann.
It’s was aimed at everyone …… just a friendly warning after reading much of the thread earlier this morning. Personal comments aimed at members are against the rules if they cross the line and insult, ridicule or mock.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,610
4,883
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
It’s was aimed at everyone …… just a friendly warning after reading much of the thread earlier this morning. Personal comments aimed at members are against the rules if they cross the line and insult, ridicule or mock.
God bless Rita.

If I may, keep this thread open so that others may learn to discern between error and truth, and expose those who are willfully in a state of error, not willing to be corrected.

Shalom to you and family
Johann.
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,470
3,521
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
From the little I have read or heard, modern day rabbis would be more familiar with the Talmud, not Torah.
That is my understanding too. It's just like Catholicism and many in the church nowadays....people prefer to read the commentaries and teachings of men over the word of God, and only see scripture and cherry picked quotations through the distorted lens of what those men teach.

It's like in Catholic church, they read and learn the Catechism, much more than the bible. Any contradictions to the bible in the Catechism and they defer to the authority of the Catechism over the bible. (In fact Catholic church prevented people from even having bibles and would persecute and imprison, torture and kill those who were found having one.)

There are very many similarities between Rabbinic Babylon-influenced Judaism and the Catholic church, it is uncanny. Like Mystery Babylon has two arms.
 

Laurina

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2023
117
310
63
58
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Not sure if I'm understanding this but are you saying He is chastising all flesh the same, both believers and unbelievers? The bible says the whole world lies under the wrath of God, and that the wrath of God abideth on those who believe not. Believers are not under wrath, and neither are we appointed to wrath in the future, but the judgments/chastisements we are subject to, the Lord works together for our good.
I believe what he is saying is flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.....if a believer mixes his/her flesh into the mix....it will get dealt with as "flesh". As in Uzzah (well meaning as he was) tried to "help" (in/with his flesh) something where flesh couldn't be involved without consequences. As in there is no partiality with God.....flesh is flesh in believer or non-believer. That's my understanding for what it's worth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Azim
Status
Not open for further replies.