What exactly is pre-Tribulation, Tribulation and Rapture?

[Wrangler]

The dead are in heaven

Do you have a Scripture verse that says this?

 

[Wrangler]

according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV, right?

The Lord descends in power, glory, with a shout that will wake the dead and a trumpet that will shake to their foundations the mountains - and the dead in Christ rise with the living saints to be with Jesus forevermore, right or wrong?

Wrong. The dead are already awake and are in heaven.

My man, @Phoneman777 is quoting Scripture. You are not. On what basis do you declear it wrong?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sadly I am unable to view what the book Prophecy said Ron, here is what one of our publications say:
*** w92 5/1 p. 6 The 1914 Generation—Why Significant? ***
SINCE 1879 the magazine then known as The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence (now known as The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom) frequently pointed to 1914 as a marked year in Bible prophecy. As the year approached, readers were reminded that “an awful time of trouble” could be expected.
This information was published far and wide by Christians, who based it on their understanding of the “seven times” and “the times of the Gentiles” mentioned in the Bible. They understood this period to be 2,520 years—starting with the overthrow of the ancient Davidic kingdom in Jerusalem and ending in October 1914.

I began studying with the witnesses in early 74, and accepted that the 1879 WT printed 1914 would be the end of the times of the Gentiles. I will say that we believed that Jesus received the crown in heaven in 1874 as you correctly pointed out at that time. So yes sir you were correct I was in error. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention, I did not intentionally lie, but misunderstood what they understood at the time Ron. My apologies. I will rephrase that in the future when I speak about what was printed in 1879, but I still believe the appointed times of the nations ended then and Jesus was enthroned as King, which ushered us into the last days spoken about in Mat 24. Time will reveal if we are correct on that, but most everyone believes we are on the verge of Jesus' return. That is not exclusive to us sir.

Yes the Watchtower has been date setting for a very long time. You began when they finally got tired of being made fools by all their dates that didn't come to pass.

If the link is blue shaded you should just click on it and it will take you to the cover and towards the bottom you can slide to pages 65-66 and see that Rutherford was still saying Jesus was reigning since 1874, 16 years after He was supposed to have startred reigning for teh second date teh Watchtower set for this.

But you do not even see the problem you have as well as the watchtower.

Yes i know much of Watchtower history. For a long time until I moved 22 years ago and had to severely pare down my library I had more watchtower material than small small kingdom halls. I had many of the older works like Rutherfords and some original watchtowers from the 19th and early 20th century.

BTW I clicked on the link on my post and on your post and it took me right away to Rutherfords book.

 

[Phoneman777]

The chapter discusses both the second coming and the resurrection.

Does the Chiasm in verse 14 speak of His coming? No, just one of the events which take place at His coming, which is that He will "bring forth with Him" from the tomb the saints in the same manner He was brought forth from the tomb.

Nonsense. The passages promises that because Christ rose, so will the dead in Christ and they will rise first, and He will bring them with him making it impossible for the living to prevent the dead.

No, the Chiasm which you keep refusing to acknowledge plainly tells us "if we believe that Jesus died and was brought forth from the tomb, we can believe that God also will bring the sleeping saints forth from the tomb in the same manner Jesus was brought forth". Any other interpretation, especially that one about "transporting the saints across the universe", destroys the Chiasm.

They arise from the dead in haven and are brought with Christ as he descends to the clouds.

The arise from the grave, which is where they wait until their change comes, just as Job said is where he's be waiting, as well.

The word means to be with someone in the literal sense of physical nearness. denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844) much closer than two words that mean to be near someone! Resurrecting like Him is not the same as bring BROUGHT with Him. You are changing what the text is saying. Do you deny the resurrected saints are brought with Christ at the second coming?

The Greek word ALSO means "by association, process, resemblance". That's how the dead saints are coming forth from the tomb: BY THE SAME ASSOCIATION, PROCESS, RESEMBLANCE AS WHEN JESUS WAS BROUGHT FORTH.

 

[Phoneman777]

To that point, yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

OK, that's why I wrote proving there's no way life on Earth will continue after Jesus comes "as a thief". The whole shooting match is going up in smoke.

 

[ewq1938]

OK, that's why I wrote proving there's no way life on Earth will continue after Jesus comes "as a thief".

Why then did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write RULE in Rev 19 in the future tense? How can people be ruled over after Armageddon is over if no one is left alive?

 

[quietthinker]

What exactly is pre-Tribulation, Tribulation and Rapture?
an exercise of the soothsayers!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Opinions seem to vary, but if it means the end of the world these words of Jesus make it clear that it'll be an uncomfortable time, and that Christians (the Elect) will be in it too-

"Wars, rumours of wars, false christs, earthquakes, famines, persecutions, darkened sun and moon, falling stars, shaken planets.
Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequalled from the beginning until now, and never to be equalled again.
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!" (Mark ch 13)

Here is….

My New End Times Chronology:
(A Chronology in Honor of both:
A Pre-Trib Rapture and a Mid-Trib Gathering of the Elect):
(Note: While the Scriptures on the End Times will come to pass, our interpretations on how things will end exactly is where we many of us differ. So I see the timing of my End Times chronology as one possible future and not as hard core fact).

Summary:

1. Pre-Trib Rapture (or Rapture during the 1st 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation).
2. 1st Half of 7 Year Tribulation Part 1, and Part 2.
3. 2nd Half of 7 Year Tribulation Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4.
4. Earth is Purified by Fire & Satan is Bound.
5. The Millennium: the 1st of the Resurrections, 1,000 Year Reign of Christ, & the Final Last Battle.
6. Old Earth Passes Away and A New Earth Appears.
7. New Jerusalem Comes Down From Out of Heaven.
8. The Final Resurrections and the Judgment.
9. The Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked.
10. The End - The Saints Live with God for All Eternity.

Commentaries:

1. The 70th Week of Daniel.
2. Explaining Why "One Day = One Year" in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.
3. Explaining the 70 Weeks from Daniel 9:24-27.
4. When does the "Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath" begin?
5. Figuring out the Timing of the Gathering: Comparing Revelation 19 with the Olivet Discourse.
6. Marriage Supper is a Battle & Not a Literal Feast.
7. Why is there is a "Pre-Trib Rapture," and a "Mid-Trib Gathering?"
8. The 8 Kings.

 

[Phoneman777]

Why then did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write RULE in Rev 19 in the future tense? How can people be ruled over after Armageddon is over if no one is left alive?

What is meant by "rule over the nations with a rod of iron"? Again, we have to allow the Bible to interpret itself:

Psalm 2:7-9 KJV
[7] I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto Me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee. [8] Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

When Jesus "rules over the nations with a rod of iron" He's going to destroy them. That's why the Stone in Daniel 2 comes crashing into the feet of the statue and blows the entire thing away...it doesn't land next to it and get all chummy - the Stone, Jesus, annihilates those kingdoms.

 

[Taken]

OK, that's why I wrote proving there's no way life on Earth will continue after Jesus comes "as a thief". The whole shooting match is going up in smoke.

My question may have already been answered, however, what is your perspective, of timing of Jesus coming “as thief in the night” ?

I understand;
The Son of man Seen by All, sitting on a cloud, with a cycle. Rev 14:14

Prophecy fulfilled:
Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Prophecy fulfilled:
The FURTHER, From returning to Clouds, to Returning to Earth...
Rev 19: 11 —-> forward
Jesus Returns King of kings, Lord of lords....

IS this ^ your timing of “Jesus’ return as a thief in the night” ?

Thanks.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes the Watchtower has been date setting for a very long time. You began when they finally got tired of being made fools by all their dates that didn't come to pass.

If the link is blue shaded you should just click on it and it will take you to the cover and towards the bottom you can slide to pages 65-66 and see that Rutherford was still saying Jesus was reigning since 1874, 16 years after He was supposed to have startred reigning for teh second date teh Watchtower set for this.

But you do not even see the problem you have as well as the watchtower.

Yes i know much of Watchtower history. For a long time until I moved 22 years ago and had to severely pare down my library I had more watchtower material than small small kingdom halls. I had many of the older works like Rutherfords and some original watchtowers from the 19th and early 20th century.

BTW I clicked on the link on my post and on your post and it took me right away to Rutherfords book.

I told you I was a moron, Ron. Yes sir it surely did, when I clicked on it, it took me right to it, and you were correct, we did understand it that way then. I overlooked it because I generally do not click on links. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Of course we were in error sir. Since history has proved (at least to me) that Jesus began his rule in 1914, I still stand on that date. And yes in 1879 we did put into print that the Kingdom should come then, at least the calling of the remainder of the anointed. Again we were in error, however strong evidence suggests we entered into the last days of this system then.

I see no problem with being in error in understanding Ron, of course if you could direct me to the denomination that has perfect understanding I would appreciate it. But since you cannot, I simply go with the Bible's identification sir. No doubt you know that truth is released progressively. Pro 4:18

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I told you I was a moron, Ron. Yes sir it surely did, when I clicked on it, it took me right to it, and you were correct, we did understand it that way then. I overlooked it because I generally do not click on links. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Of course we were in error sir. Since history has proved (at least to me) that Jesus began his rule in 1914, I still stand on that date. And yes in 1879 we did put into print that the Kingdom should come then, at least the calling of the remainder of the anointed. Again we were in error, however strong evidence suggests we entered into the last days of this system then.

I see no problem with being in error in understanding Ron, of course if you could direct me to the denomination that has perfect understanding I would appreciate it. But since you cannot, I simply go with the Bible's identification sir. No doubt you know that truth is released progressively. Pro 4:18

Well remember Rutherford wrote that book in 1930. Sixteen years after the organization says Jesus returned invisibly! The fish stinks here!

Every one is in error. But the problem is that the Watchtower claimed to be Gods prophet like organization and that one cannot rpogress to teh light unless they are associated with the organization.

They have made many false prophecies.
Truth is released progressively. but that eneded at teh end of teh first century when all the books of the bible were written! What the watchtower lies about are unbiblical things. they will disfellowship you if you say their current beliefsa about some stuff is wrong biblically.

Remember when you make your self th eone true church like the Jw's and the RCC have, everything is scrutinized. Watchtower teaching has failed miserably many many many times. They have changed teachings so often.

they predicted Armageddon so often many got to mockingly call the organization " Armageddon INc.".

A new truth cannot contradict an old truth. expand and further explain yes, but contrdict no! that makes the old light darkness!

Well off till weds. to visit one fo our 6 kida, his wife and my precious granddaughter.

 

[Behold]

Opinions

1.) "Pre-Trib", is the biblical teaching that the Bride of Christ will be taken off this earth by Jesus. This is the "Rapture of the Church", that occurs "PRE" Great Tribulation.

2.) Tribulation (Great) : refers to God again taking up His dealing with the Jew. This begins exactly when God's dealing with the Gentiles, that is defined as the "Time of the Gentiles", ends. Its during that division time between those 2 , that the Rapture takes place.

3.) The Rapture : is a phrase that describes the moment when Jesus comes for His Bride, which is the body of Christ. He will call them, and they will each leave their bodies and all else behind and meet Jesus in the Air,.... and faster then you can blink, the Born again Bride of Christ will receive a brand new BODY (each believer) that is the eternal spiritual match for their eternal Born again Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

What is meant by "rule over the nations with a rod of iron"? Again, we have to allow the Bible to interpret itself:

Psalm 2:7-9 KJV
[7] I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto Me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee. [8] Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

When Jesus "rules over the nations with a rod of iron" He's going to destroy them.

Where is the word "rule" found in those verses? You are did not comment on why rule is in the future tense in rev 19.

 

[ewq1938]

2.) Tribulation (Great) : refers to God again taking up His dealing with the Jew.

No. The GT is when the saints of the church are persecuted in a worse way than ever in history, a time just prior to the second coming, Matthew 24.

3.) The Rapture : is a phrase that describes the moment when Jesus comes for His Bride, which is the body of Christ. He will call them, and they will each leave their bodies and all else behind and meet Jesus in the Air,....

This is also false. Scripture says their bodies are changed, not left behind.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Phoneman777]

My question may have already been answered, however, what is your perspective, of timing of Jesus coming “as thief in the night” ?

No man knoweth the day or the hour...but prophecy says it will be after the "time of trouble", after the Mark of the Beast, after the 7 last plagues.

I understand; The Son of man Seen by All, sitting on a cloud, with a cycle. Rev 14:14

Every eye shall see Him, but it doesn't say all will see Him "at the same time". What it does say is "as lightning cometh out of the East and shineth even unto the West..." which denotes not only the speed at which He will traverse the globe, but also that He will indeed traverse it.

Prophecy fulfilled:
Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Prophecy fulfilled:
The FURTHER, From returning to Clouds, to Returning to Earth...
Rev 19: 11 —-> forward
Jesus Returns King of kings, Lord of lords....

IS this ^ your timing of “Jesus’ return as a thief in the night” ?

Thanks.

I like that Acts appeals to our sense of sight over and over, which should alone be enough to overthrow the idea that His coming will be "secret" as He "sneaks into town and sneaks out with the saints".

 

[Phoneman777]

Where is the word "rule" found in those verses? You are did not comment on why rule is in the future tense in rev 19.

The question was "If the Earth doesn't continue after Jesus comes, why does it say He will rule over the nations"?

The answer is that His "rule" is not going to be peaceful. As soon as He takes off His high priestly robes and puts on His kingly robes and comes to take possession of the Earth and rule over it, the wicked are going to be squashed...at the Second Coming!

 

[Dropship]

1.) "Pre-Trib", is the biblical teaching that the Bride of Christ will be taken off this earth by Jesus. This is the "Rapture of the Church", that occurs "PRE" Great Tribulation.

2.) Tribulation (Great) : refers to God again taking up His dealing with the Jew. This begins exactly when God's dealing with the Gentiles, that is defined as the "Time of the Gentiles", ends. Its during that division time between those 2 , that the Rapture takes place.

3.) The Rapture : is a phrase that describes the moment when Jesus comes for His Bride, which is the body of Christ. He will call them, and they will each leave their bodies and all else behind and meet Jesus in the Air,.... and faster then you can blink, the Born again Bride of Christ will receive a brand new BODY (each believer) that is the eternal spiritual match for their eternal Born again Spirit.

Thanks, but what exactly will we be seeing when we look out the window during the Pre-Trib, the Trib and Rapture?
And why is resurrection split into 3 "phases" like that?

 

[ewq1938]

The question was "If the Earth doesn't continue after Jesus comes, why does it say He will rule over the nations"?

The answer is that His "rule" is not going to be peaceful. As soon as He takes off His high priestly robes and puts on His kingly robes and comes to take possession of the Earth and rule over it, the wicked are going to be squashed...at the Second Coming!

So you are going to continue to ignore the fact that RULE in Rev 19 is in the future tense proving the rule over the nations happens after the second coming...that's not a surprise.

And Rule isn't peaceful? Of course it is, as that is the only acceptable understanding of the Greek word. Do you guys ever study the Greek language??

Ruling with a rod of iron is also about caring for the people:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks, but what exactly will we be seeing when we look out the window during the Pre-Trib, the Trib and Rapture?
And why is resurrection split into 3 "phases" like that?

None of those three are about the resurrection.