What exactly is pre-Tribulation, Tribulation and Rapture?

[ewq1938]

Sure, the dead have to take part in the Rapture, because it's then they rise with the living saints, translated, to meet Jesus in the clouds.

The dead are in heaven so they don't need to be rapture up from the Earth to the clouds.

The rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV, right?

Yes but the dead come from a different place than the living.

The Lord descends in power, glory, with a shout that will wake the dead and a trumpet that will shake to their foundations the mountains - and the dead in Christ rise with the living saints to be with Jesus forevermore, right or wrong?

Wrong. The dead are already awake and are in heaven. They will be brought with Christ:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In your version, the dead are not brought with Christ but are raptured to the clouds separately, violating this verse.

 

[Taken]

What exactly is pre-Tribulation, Tribulation and Rapture?
OP ^

1) Pre-Tribulation are events that preceded the end of days Tribulation that comes down from Heaven.

The events, are tribulations, discontent, between and among men, and family members. Increase in love of secular things, lewdness, unnatural affections, immoral behaviors, ill mannered behaviors, etc. common, tolerated, acceptable. People edgy, uncertain.

Also rumors of wars, wars, discontent between nations.

Also weather disturbances, earth shifting, sporadic then observed more sever and increasing in how often.

IMO, largely what we are beginning to see and the increase thereof.

2) Tribulation, in the sense called Great, is attributed to acts of God, Sending down from Heaven, in the form of Gods Wrath, for His own Anger, of the world out of control, as well as He and Christ Jesus being widely rejected.

AND allowing power of wickedness and evil to increase, for a short while.

Also a time, Gods sends particular AID to Israel (the People), that they may hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, from their own People (rather than Gentiles), fostering a WAY for Gods Promise to Save His People ISRAEL to come into fruition.
That AID...two preaching witnesses & 144,000 Tribesmen & a Lamb.

The time of Division has been since the beginning...
During the Tribulation shall also be a time of Separating the Divided...those WITH God, from those WITHOUT God.

Mega destruction of tangible things.
Mega death of humans.

3) Rapture, is the rising up of those already Saved;
Already received Forgiveness for having HAD not believed.
Already have given their body unto death, crucified with Christ Jesus, Already receive salvation of their souls, Already receive their born again spirit.
Already are Forgiven, Covered, Washed, Sanctified, Justified, dwelling IN Christ Jesus’ risen body, and Gods Spirit IN them.
Already Prepared for on whatever day, they are called to meet the Lord in the clouds, while great tribulation commences upon the face of the earth.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The dead are in heaven so they don't need to be rapture up from the Earth to the clouds.

Dead body’s are in the earth, not heaven.
Converted live body’s are on the earth, not heaven.

 

[Phoneman777]

Wrong. The dead are already awake and are in heaven. They will be brought with Christ:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In your version, the dead are not brought with Christ but are raptured to the clouds separately, violating this verse.​

Here's why "bring" in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV is not referring to "bring the dead saints in heaven back to Earth with Jesus at His Second Coming":

What is the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV? The resurrection, with which we are told by Paul to "comfort one another". Verse 14 is plainly written as a Hebrew Chiasm and our understanding of it must leave both it and the context intact. It is written as an "ABAB" Chiasm:​

"For if we believe that Jesus (A) died
and (B) rose again,
even so them also which (A) sleep in Jesus
will God (B) bring with Him."
​

If we interpret "bring" as you do which is "transport from point A to point B" the text becomes a pretext and destroys the Chiasm. It has the saints moving laterally from one physical location to another.

If we interpret "bring" as it should be - "bring forth from the tomb" - the movement of the saints is from one spiritual location to another: they rise from death to life by the power of God, just as Jesus rose from the tomb by the same power. They resurrect from death to life. By this, the text remains a text in full harmony with the context and the Chiasm is preserved. The dead saints will be brought forth from the tomb "with" Jesus or "in like manner" as He was also brought forth by the same.

 

[ewq1938]

Dead body’s are in the earth, not heaven.

Everyone knows that. I am speaking about the souls of the dead.

Converted live body’s are on the earth, not heaven.

Everyone knows that too.

 

[ewq1938]

If we interpret "bring" as it should be - "bring forth from the tomb"

That contradicts the scripture which says "bring with Him". He is leaving heaven and bringing people from heaven with him to the clouds where they will meet the living who are raptured up to be in the clouds.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

How is this done? By the dead already being with him! They rise first, brought with Christ:


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That's the last event concerning the last group, the living.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I thought that Jesus said that he would never leave us ? and with regards to Nathaniel, Jesus said what would he see ?

 

[Taken]

@Phoneman777 @ewq1938 @Reggie Belafonte @Dropship @marks

****
Regarding the Rapture applicability;
Applicability to: the Converted IN Christ, while alive on earth.
Converted IN Christ: new bodily creature, soul saved, spirit born again.
(We do not YET see our new bodies, see our saved souls, nor see our born again spirits.)

Not subject to wrath.
Redeemed Before the Tribulation Begins.
1) dead body’s rise up from grave, reunited with soul and spirit.
2) living body’s rise up from earth, reunited with soul and spirit.
3) new body’s revealed Now seen, saved souls, quickened spirits with the Lord in the clouds, while the Tribulation on earth commences.
4) Are expressly Members of Christ’s Church, called IN Christ.
5) Already accounted WHOLE, body, soul, spirit.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

****
Regarding Believers WHO DID NOT become CONVERTED BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
1) Do Believe.
2) Did not give their body unto death, (crucified with Jesus).
3) Are NOT, called Christ’s Church Members, not called IN Christ.
4) Shall experience beginning, (seals), of Tribulation.
5) Some MAY, even continue to Bodily Live, and experience (portions) of (trumps) Tribulations.
6) Chaos ON Earth, much Death, via God Sent Disasters, via Satan ruling Killing.
7) Bodily Death Of BELIEVER...
8) BELIEVER...before Tribulation or During Tribulation...
THEN, body dies, THEN, soul saved.
9) AS BELIEVERS are bodily dying on Earth, Their souls being Saved..
Their souls are being gathered together...UNDER THE ALTAR on EARTH;
Waiting UNTIL...ALL Believers ON Earth, Bodily Die, Become Soul Saved.
10) ONCE, All believers ON Earth, have BODILY died, Their Saved souls, together Rise UP to Heaven.
11) THEIR dead body’s, buried, or not, rotting.

12) AFTER the Tribulation...Christ returns to Earth with His saints.
13) Satan removed from the face of the earth...Christ reigns 1,000 years.
14) Christ’ 1,000 yr reign ends...Satan returns to the face of the earth.
15) Chaos, mortals, saints, Satan, fall angels, wars, Lord defeats.
16) Judgements....Saved, Unsaved.
17) Believers Saved during Trib. BECOME Quickened, (ie. spirit born again,) Bodily Risen UP, a new creature. Saved souls, reunited with new Body and quickened spirit...THEY NOW (AFTER TRIBULATION upon the Earth. AFTER the 1,000 yr Reign)...ARE MADE WHOLE...

18) THEY ARE REDEEMED...BY God, Risen up in their NEW Body’s.
19) THEY are accounted, WITH, the “REST OF THE DEAD”, (From the beginning to the ending, of those WHO physically DIED...
Believing IN God, and Believing IN the One God Sent.)
20) Hebrews, Jews, Tribes, Gentiles...

1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

WHEN?
Rev 20:
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


21) ALL evil, wickedness, unbelievers, have been removed from the face of the earth.
22) ALL “MADE WHOLE”, eternally LIVE on NEW, renewed Earth WITH their KING, Lord God Almighty, IN His World Kingdom ON Earth.
23) New Heaven, New Earth...OPENED, present Barrier removed.

WHAT about the “UNSAVED” ? Wait. Then Judgements.
1 Thes 4:
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.<—- Died without Conversion, Died without Believe.
(^ they part of Second Resurrection, Sentenced to Destruction, and Forgotten.)

Who, What, When, Why...dependent upon the individuals own freely elected choices.
* Converted ALREADY MADE WHOLE.
* Believers MUST bodily Die to be MADE WHOLE.
* UnBelievers who bodily Die have no hope to Become Whole.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes sir. I am one of Jehovah's witnesses, and we published in the Watchtower magazine that the end of the appointed times of the nations, Jesus' receiving the crown of Kingship would happen in 1914, in 1879. The outbreak of WW#1 did it for me.

That sir is a lie! Why don't you read a non edited copy of Judge Rutherfords book entitled "prophecy", published in 1930.

In that book by the then president and member of the so called faithful and discreet slave class he wrote (I paraphrase) That the invisible presence of Jesus occurred in 1874! that was 16 years after 1914! didn't he get the memo being the head of the organization? You can find it on page 65.

Prophecy By Judge Rutherford : J.F. Rutherford : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Phoneman777]

That contradicts the scripture which says "bring with Him".

If you'd had read the last line of my post, you'd know I addressed this -- consider the following:

When a Bulls fan in Chicago celebrates a win "with" a Bulls fan in Afghanistan, are they "with each other side by side" or are they celebrating "in like manner"? Likewise, "bring with Him" means "bring forth from the tomb in like manner Jesus was brought forth from the tomb".

Now, you have a choice: either continue insisting that "bring with Him" means "transport dead saints from heaven to Earth side by side with Jesus at His Coming" - which throws out contextual harmony and destroys the Hebrew Chiasm (where "died/sleep" is rhymed in reference to "death" and "rose/bring" is rhymed in reference to "resurrection from the tomb")...

-------- or --------​

...preserve textual harmony and the Hebrew Chiasm. Why not choose the latter?

 

[ewq1938]

Now, you have a choice: either continue insisting that "bring with Him" means "transport dead saints from heaven to Earth side by side with Jesus at His Coming" - which throws out contextual harmony and destroys the Hebrew Chiasm (where "died/sleep" is rhymed in reference to "death" and "rose/bring" is rhymed in reference to "resurrection from the tomb")...

To bring someone with you in the Greek means exactly what it says. There is no textual issue. The dead are in heaven, and at the sec coming they are brought with Christ! Scripture tends to disrupt denominational beliefs because many of those are not based on scripture.

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777 @ewq1938 @Reggie Belafonte @Dropship @marks

****
Regarding the Rapture applicability;
Applicability to: the Converted IN Christ, while alive on earth.
Converted IN Christ: new bodily creature, soul saved, spirit born again.
(We do not YET see our new bodies, see our saved souls, nor see our born again spirits.)

Not subject to wrath.
Redeemed Before the Tribulation Begins.
1) dead body’s rise up from grave, reunited with soul and spirit.
2) living body’s rise up from earth, reunited with soul and spirit.
3) new body’s revealed Now seen, saved souls, quickened spirits with the Lord in the clouds, while the Tribulation on earth commences.
4) Are expressly Members of Christ’s Church, called IN Christ.
5) Already accounted WHOLE, body, soul, spirit.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

****
Regarding Believers WHO DID NOT become CONVERTED BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
1) Do Believe.
2) Did not give their body unto death, (crucified with Jesus).
3) Are NOT, called Christ’s Church Members, not called IN Christ.
4) Shall experience beginning, (seals), of Tribulation.
5) Some MAY, even continue to Bodily Live, and experience (portions) of (trumps) Tribulations.
6) Chaos ON Earth, much Death, via God Sent Disasters, via Satan ruling Killing.
7) Bodily Death Of BELIEVER...
8) BELIEVER...before Tribulation or During Tribulation...
THEN, body dies, THEN, soul saved.
9) AS BELIEVERS are bodily dying on Earth, Their souls being Saved..
Their souls are being gathered together...UNDER THE ALTAR on EARTH;
Waiting UNTIL...ALL Believers ON Earth, Bodily Die, Become Soul Saved.
10) ONCE, All believers ON Earth, have BODILY died, Their Saved souls, together Rise UP to Heaven.
11) THEIR dead body’s, buried, or not, rotting.

12) AFTER the Tribulation...Christ returns to Earth with His saints.
13) Satan removed from the face of the earth...Christ reigns 1,000 years.
14) Christ’ 1,000 yr reign ends...Satan returns to the face of the earth.
15) Chaos, mortals, saints, Satan, fall angels, wars, Lord defeats.
16) Judgements....Saved, Unsaved.
17) Believers Saved during Trib. BECOME Quickened, (ie. spirit born again,) Bodily Risen UP, a new creature. Saved souls, reunited with new Body and quickened spirit...THEY NOW (AFTER TRIBULATION upon the Earth. AFTER the 1,000 yr Reign)...ARE MADE WHOLE...

18) THEY ARE REDEEMED...BY God, Risen up in their NEW Body’s.
19) THEY are accounted, WITH, the “REST OF THE DEAD”, (From the beginning to the ending, of those WHO physically DIED...
Believing IN God, and Believing IN the One God Sent.)
20) Hebrews, Jews, Tribes, Gentiles...

1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

WHEN?
Rev 20:
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


21) ALL evil, wickedness, unbelievers, have been removed from the face of the earth.
22) ALL “MADE WHOLE”, eternally LIVE on NEW, renewed Earth WITH their KING, Lord God Almighty, IN His World Kingdom ON Earth.
23) New Heaven, New Earth...OPENED, present Barrier removed.

WHAT about the “UNSAVED” ? Wait. Then Judgements.
1 Thes 4:
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.<—- Died without Conversion, Died without Believe.
(^ they part of Second Resurrection, Sentenced to Destruction, and Forgotten.)

Who, What, When, Why...dependent upon the individuals own freely elected choices.
* Converted ALREADY MADE WHOLE.
* Believers MUST bodily Die to be MADE WHOLE.
* UnBelievers who bodily Die have no hope to Become Whole.

Glory to God,
Taken

Doesn't Peter say when the day of the Lord comes "as a thief" the world will basically implode? Some say, O, the "day of the Lord" is not a day but a period, and they argue that it will last 7 years...is that what happened in Noah's day? Did Jesus say the Flood came and they all stood around dancing in the rain and making mud angels on the ground and carried on a few years before it took them all away"???

Nope.

He says it came suddenly and they were swept away and "so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of Man." Yes, when the "day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night", there won't be 7 more seconds of life down here, let alone 7 more years, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman777]

To bring someone with you in the Greek means exactly what it says. There is no textual issue. The dead are in heaven, and at the sec coming they are brought with Christ! Scripture tends to disrupt denominational beliefs because many of those are not based on scripture.

It doesn't say "bring someone with you". It says "bring with Him". I've shown why the word "with" can only be interpreted as "in like manner" which is a fully acceptable interpretation, just like the two Bulls fans on opposite sides of the globe celebrating "with" each other over a team victory.

We can't destroy the Chiasm in order to establish a doctrine. Nor can we deny the context of "bring with Him" as having to do with being resurrected from the tomb as Jesus was resurrected from the tomb, not traveling across the expanse of space.

 

[Taken]

Doesn't Peter say when the day of the Lord comes "as a thief" the world will basically implode? Some say, O, the "day of the Lord" is not a day but a period, and they argue that it will last 7 years...is that what happened in Noah's day? Did Jesus say the Flood came and they all stood around dancing in the rain and making mud angels on the ground and carried on a few years before it took them all away"???

Nope.

He says it came suddenly and they were swept away and "so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of Man." Yes, when the "day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night", there won't be 7 more seconds of life down here, let alone 7 more years, right or wrong?

I wasn’t addressing the “day of the Lord”, nor did I imply a seven year period for the day of the Lord.
Not sure where your response was going with what I posted.

 

[ewq1938]

It doesn't say "bring someone with you".

Of course it does. It's speaking of the dead being brought with Christ and Christ is coming from heaven. There is literally no other valid way to understand it.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Two verses later the second coming is mentioned.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says "bring with Him". I've shown why the word "with" can only be interpreted as "in like manner" which is a fully acceptable interpretation, just like the two Bulls fans on opposite sides of the globe celebrating "with" each other over a team victory.

That definition does not fit the context of Christ bring someone with him which the next verse reaffirms. The living cannot prevent the dead because the dead are already with Christ!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same word and meaning here.

G4862
σύν
sun
soon
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
Total KJV occurrences: 125

We can't destroy the Chiasm in order to establish a doctrine.

We shouldn't INVENT a "Chiasm" to justify an unscriptural doctrine.

 

[Phoneman777]

I wasn’t addressing the “day of the Lord”, nor did I imply a seven year period for the day of the Lord.
Not sure where your response was going with what I posted.

It sounded like you believe after Jesus comes, life will continue on Earth.

 

[Phoneman777]

Of course it does. It's speaking of the dead being brought with Christ and Christ is coming from heaven. There is literally no other valid way to understand it. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Is verse 14 talking about Jesus traveling across the universe, or coming forth from the tomb? The Chiasm demands that we apply the exact same idea to "they that sleep" - they don't "travel with Jesus across the universe". God will "bring" them forth from the tomb "with Him" as Jesus was brought forth from the tomb.

That definition does not fit the context of Christ bring someone with him which the next verse reaffirms. The living cannot prevent the dead because the dead are already with Christ!

How can the dead saints already be "up" if the verse says they're going to rise "up"? The reason the living don't precede the dead is because the dead are granted the privilege of rising first, seeing that they suffered that which the living saints didn't - death.

G4862
σύν
sun
soon
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
Total KJV occurrences: 125

I don't see why you can't see that association, resemblance, process, instrumentality, addition, are all definitions which prove my position is correct. Will not the saints coming forth from the tomb perfectly resemble what happened when Jesus came forth? Of course!

We shouldn't INVENT a "Chiasm" to justify an unscriptural doctrine.

Invent? If verse 14 isn't a textbook example of Hebrew Chiastic Structure, then they don't exist. We shouldn't deny the Chiasm of verse 14 in order to manufacture a "proof" text for the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. "God only hath immortality", says Paul.

 

[ewq1938]

Is verse 14 talking about Jesus traveling across the universe, or coming forth from the tomb?

The chapter discusses both the second coming and the resurrection.

God will "bring" them forth from the tomb "with Him" as Jesus was brought forth from the tomb.

Nonsense. The passages promises that because Christ rose, so will the dead in Christ and they will rise first, and He will bring them with him making it impossible for the living to prevent the dead.

How can the dead saints already be "up" if the verse says they're going to rise "up"?

They arise from the dead in haven and are brought with Christ as he descends to the clouds.

I don't see why you can't see that association, resemblance, process, instrumentality, addition, are all definitions which prove my position is correct.

The word means to be with someone in the literal sense of physical nearness. denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844) much closer than two words that mean to be near someone!

Resurrecting like Him is not the same as bring BROUGHT with Him. You are changing what the text is saying. Do you deny the resurrected saints are brought with Christ at the second coming?

 

[Taken]

It sounded like you believe after Jesus comes, life will continue on Earth.

To that point, yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Robert Gwin]

That sir is a lie! Why don't you read a non edited copy of Judge Rutherfords book entitled "prophecy", published in 1930.

In that book by the then president and member of the so called faithful and discreet slave class he wrote (I paraphrase) That the invisible presence of Jesus occurred in 1874! that was 16 years after 1914! didn't he get the memo being the head of the organization? You can find it on page 65.

Prophecy By Judge Rutherford : J.F. Rutherford : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Sadly I am unable to view what the book Prophecy said Ron, here is what one of our publications say:
*** w92 5/1 p. 6 The 1914 Generation—Why Significant? ***
SINCE 1879 the magazine then known as The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence (now known as The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom) frequently pointed to 1914 as a marked year in Bible prophecy. As the year approached, readers were reminded that “an awful time of trouble” could be expected.
This information was published far and wide by Christians, who based it on their understanding of the “seven times” and “the times of the Gentiles” mentioned in the Bible. They understood this period to be 2,520 years—starting with the overthrow of the ancient Davidic kingdom in Jerusalem and ending in October 1914.

I began studying with the witnesses in early 74, and accepted that the 1879 WT printed 1914 would be the end of the times of the Gentiles. I will say that we believed that Jesus received the crown in heaven in 1874 as you correctly pointed out at that time. So yes sir you were correct I was in error. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention, I did not intentionally lie, but misunderstood what they understood at the time Ron. My apologies. I will rephrase that in the future when I speak about what was printed in 1879, but I still believe the appointed times of the nations ended then and Jesus was enthroned as King, which ushered us into the last days spoken about in Mat 24. Time will reveal if we are correct on that, but most everyone believes we are on the verge of Jesus' return. That is not exclusive to us sir.