What I actually believe -- sharing love of Christ

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that people can reject the Gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets and the everlasting covenant, who were liars, adulterers, murders, thieves and others who flouted God's commandments still enter the Telestial Kingdom?
There is a LOT in this question and a lot of background which I would need to even cover to adequately address things. I'm not completely sure which particular aspect here you're wanted addressed, so I'll attach this link to cover general bases: Chapter 46: The Final Judgment

If you want me to address some particular aspect of this question / subject, let me know.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that some marriages are eternal?
Heaven isn't Heaven without those we love. No one's spouse or child-parent bond is just "training wheels" to teach you what "real love" is (though they certainly do teach us a lot more about love). I fully hope to see all my loved ones in Heaven with God's presence, and these bonds indeed will continue to be special to me.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By "far older", how much older do you mean? Are you saying that you believe that you are not eternal in some form?
"Far older" = WAAAAAAAAAAAY than my little brain can comprehend. My internal measuring times scales does work past a century, let alone eternity in the past (before brith) or eternity in the future (resurrection, etc).
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By "far older", how much older do you mean? Are you saying that you believe that you are not eternal in some form?
"Far older" = WAAAAAAAAAAAY than my little brain can comprehend. My internal measuring times scales does work past a century, let alone eternity in the past (before brith) or eternity in the future (resurrection, etc).
I doubt any of us can truly comprehend eternity given our finite minds. Especially since it is really not an abundance of time, but the lack of any time constraints. Never-the-less, we accept on faith that God is eternal without fully comprehending it.

So let me ask you one more time, for the third time, do you believe that you have existed in some form eternally or not?

I think that you know where I am going with this. It is the LDS belief that not only were all people existent eternally as some form of individual 'intelligence', but that was also true of Christ. That God the Father infused a 'spirituality' into Christ first, Lucifer second and then the rest of us. And thus we are all God's children. Siblings to our older brothers. Is that not so?

Remember folks... "LISTEN to the answers."
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that some marriages are eternal?
Heaven isn't Heaven without those we love. No one's spouse or child-parent bond is just "training wheels" to teach you what "real love" is (though they certainly do teach us a lot more about love). I fully hope to see all my loved ones in Heaven with God's presence, and these bonds indeed will continue to be special to me.

Will you please answer the question regarding marriage.

Does not the LDS believe that only temple eternal marriages afford one entry into the Celestial Kingdom?
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I doubt any of us can truly comprehend eternity given our finite minds. Especially since it is really not an abundance of time, but the lack of any time constraints. Never-the-less, we accept on faith that God is eternal without fully comprehending it.
*thumbs up*
So let me ask you one more time, for the third time, do you believe that you have existed in some form eternally or not?
My apologies that my answer wasn't clear before. Yes, I do believe that each person has existed eternally before birth and will continue to exist eternally afterwards. And that my brain doesn't comprehend those scales.
I think that you know where I am going with this. It is the LDS belief that not only were all people existent eternally as some form of individual 'intelligence', but that was also true of Christ. That God the Father infused a 'spirituality' into Christ first, Lucifer second and then the rest of us. And thus we are all God's children. Siblings to our older brothers. Is that not so?

Remember folks... "LISTEN to the answers."
We don't know much about spirits, how the physics there work, those timescales, etc. So I can't say I agree with the statement "That God the Father infused a 'spirituality' into Christ first", simply because the mechanics there aren't known.

What I can say: the Father is the Father of all. Christ alone is the Son of God and He alone has always been 100% one with the Father in obedience, goodness, will, love, etc. Rest of us fall way way short. Some even reject the Father, such as Lucifer who rebelled against the Father and hence was cast out and became Satan.
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe that people can reject the Gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets and the everlasting covenant, who were liars, adulterers, murders, thieves and others who flouted God's commandments still enter the Telestial Kingdom?
There is a LOT in this question and a lot of background which I would need to even cover to adequately address things. I'm not completely sure which particular aspect here you're wanted addressed, so I'll attach this link to cover general bases: Chapter 46: The Final Judgment

If you want me to address some particular aspect of this question / subject, let me know.

From your link....

Under "Inheriting a Place in a Kingdom of Glory"...

"The scriptures teach of three kingdoms of glory—the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom"

Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son.

The question remains, exactly as asked... Do you believe this?
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
*thumbs up*

My apologies that my answer wasn't clear before. Yes, I do believe that each person has existed eternally before birth and will continue to exist eternally afterwards. And that my brain doesn't comprehend those scales.

We don't know much about spirits, how the physics there work, those timescales, etc. So I can't say I agree with the statement "That God the Father infused a 'spirituality' into Christ first", simply because the mechanics there aren't known.

What I can say: the Father is the Father of all. Christ alone is the Son of God and He alone has always been 100% one with the Father in obedience, goodness, will, love, etc. Rest of us fall way way short. Some even reject the Father, such as Lucifer who rebelled against the Father and hence was cast out and became Satan.

But you believe that Christ and the Father are two distinct Persons?

"Mormons believe that Jesus Christ has always been a separate person from God the Father"
Who is Jesus Christ?
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Will you please answer the question regarding marriage.
ALL family bonds continue past this life-- they don't just go away like they're training wheels to be ditched later. These people and bonds will continue to exist past death: your bond with your parents, you children, your spouse etc. Yes these bonds continue onward to eternity, with/through Christ's gift.
Does not the LDS believe that only temple eternal marriages afford one entry into the Celestial Kingdom?
ALL family bonds will have the opportunity to be ratified this way. No opportunity is denied to anyone.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From your link....

Under "Inheriting a Place in a Kingdom of Glory"...

"The scriptures teach of three kingdoms of glory—the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom"

Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son.

The question remains, exactly as asked... Do you believe this?
Yes, when the background being properly understood. I don't if you are probably understanding the background here, hence why I included the larger link and offered to explain any other questions.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But you believe that Christ and the Father are two distinct Persons?

"Mormons believe that Jesus Christ has always been a separate person from God the Father"
Who is Jesus Christ?
Yes, as do Trinitarians (referring to the Athanasian Creed for Trinitarian beliefs). Three different persons (Father, Son, Spirit) are ONE God. There is a difference in belief how the three persons are one.
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Happy to help :)

First let me say that you seem completely sincere and desiring to help others. I assure you that I am too. But surely you must see how these doctrines are in great divergence from mainstream Christian doctrine?

You say the bible of the LDS is the KJV. This is my preferred version too. Not too sure how popular that view is around here, but anyway. So on the subject of marriage, how might we reconcile what your church says compared to what Christ himself said on the subject of marriage?

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:23-30 KJV
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First let me say that you seem completely sincere and desiring to help others. I assure you that I am too. But surely you must see how these doctrines are in great divergence from mainstream Christian doctrine?
I have studied many beliefs, including of different Christian folds. I am very aware of the different views. In fact, if you want me to elaborate on any particular non-LDS view, I can very much do that. I'm also very familiar with the many different misunderstandings out there, for example the two persons point that came up earlier this thread.

Now, do I care that not all of my views match popular opinion? Not at all. Truth comes from God, not from man's popular opinions.
So on the subject of marriage, how might we reconcile what your church says compared to what Christ himself said on the subject of marriage?

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:23-30 KJV
Are you actually interested in my response here if our interpretations differ?

(Sorry, just asking first. Experience has taught me that majority of folks aren't actually interested in this answer, and just want to use their view of things as a sticking "gotcha" point, and... I do get tired of that worn-out game, and if this is that game I'd rather skip it).
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have studied many beliefs, including of different Christian folds. I am very aware of the different views. In fact, if you want me to elaborate on any particular non-LDS view, I can very much do that. I'm also very familiar with the many different misunderstandings out there, for example the two persons point that came up earlier this thread.

Now, do I care that not all of my views match popular opinion? Not at all. Truth comes from God, not from man's popular opinions.

Are you actually interested in my response here if our interpretations differ?

(Sorry, just asking first. Experience has taught me that majority of folks aren't actually interested in this answer, and just want to use their view of things as a sticking "gotcha" point, and... I do get tired of that worn-out game, and if this is that game I'd rather skip it).

Yes. Interested.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes. Interested.
That is unusual-- very refreshing actually. Thank you.

For starters, the focus of the Sadducees question in Matthew 22:23-30, isn't actually about marriage in Heaven. The real underlying focus on the question is the Sadducees trying to show that the idea of a resurrection is ridiculous, because they didn't believe in it and wanted to trip Christ up. Hence Christ's focus on the resurrection, which is the real issue of the Sadducees lack of understanding.

I don't believe that man by him/herself can create a bond that last into the eternities -- we lame sinners just don't have that power. Rather, it must be done with Christ's power: enacted with His priesthood authority and with two people whom have fully embraced Him. They hypothetical example in Matthew 22 doesn't include that authority in the bonds at all. Lacking His power/authority the bond dissolves, and the individuals involved are then single angels.

Now, of course Christ have gone on to this tangent of priesthood authority/power. But such would have not have tackled the bigger elephant in the room: the Sadducees lack of belief in the resurrection in the first place.

Therefore, I don't see any contradiction between Matthew 22 and my beliefs.

Of course I acknowledge and respect that other people have different views on this, both the big subject and the smaller subjects like priesthood authority. I respect that have have zero interest in trying to change anyone's mind. Just sharing my thoughts here.
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is unusual-- very refreshing actually. Thank you.

For starters, the focus of the Sadducees question in Matthew 22:23-30, isn't actually about marriage in Heaven. The real underlying focus on the question is the Sadducees trying to show that the idea of a resurrection is ridiculous, because they didn't believe in it and wanted to trip Christ up. Hence Christ's focus on the resurrection, which is the real issue of the Sadducees lack of understanding.

I don't believe that man by him/herself can create a bond that last into the eternities -- we lame sinners just don't have that power. Rather, it must be done with Christ's power: enacted with His priesthood authority and with two people whom have fully embraced Him. They hypothetical example in Matthew 22 doesn't include that authority in the bonds at all. Lacking His power/authority the bond dissolves, and the individuals involved are then single angels.

Now, of course Christ have gone on to this tangent of priesthood authority/power. But such would have not have tackled the bigger elephant in the room: the Sadducees lack of belief in the resurrection in the first place.

Therefore, I don't see any contradiction between Matthew 22 and my beliefs.

Of course I acknowledge and respect that other people have different views on this, both the big subject and the smaller subjects like priesthood authority. I respect that have have zero interest in trying to change anyone's mind. Just sharing my thoughts here.

Well we definitely agree that Christ knew what they were trying to do and gave an answer regarding their disbelief in the resurrection. But if what you believe is true than all the rest about marriage would only serve to confuse people. Questions can be about more than one subject. So can answers.

Most would say that the need for procreation would then be unnecessary and therefore so is the need for marriage. But then I learned that the LDS believes that these post-resurrection married couples will be producing offspring still. To populate the spiritual worlds.

I will be married to Christ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Which for a man is a bit unsettling, but it is about commitment and intimacy and not sex.

I appreciate the answer.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most would say that the need for procreation would then be unnecessary and therefore so is the need for marriage.
Oh but marriage is about so much more than having babies!!
But then I learned that the LDS believes that these post-resurrection married couples will be producing offspring still.
Not in any way you or I think of as having babies (the whole 9 months embryo development and stuff).
I appreciate the answer.
I also appreciate your answers. This has been a very enjoyable conversation.
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe in baptism for the dead?
Baptisms for the dead doesn't involve any corpse or anything gross like that. Or any "making someone Mormon". Rather, it is a baptism done by proxy for each person, and that person (who is biologically deceased, but still has a living spirit) has the choice whether or not to accept that baptism and taking upon Christ's name.

Next one. If you are interested. Again, from the KJV...

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27

I don't see then any place for Proxy baptisms or chances for those in Hell during the Millennium to get a second chance? Not that I believe people are immediately judged at physical death, but that their fate is sealed. The Righteous to abide in the presence of the Lord as spirits. Awaiting the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Unrighteous to Hades. Awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.

I will even go a bit further. Most people seem to believe that until one draws their last breath that they can always repent and turn to God. But I remember reading a long time ago some passages that made me think a person can become so hard hearted, rebuffing the Holy Spirit enough times such that they cross of point of no return even before physical death. But this is not a doctrine I argue for.

And, yeah, no 'gotchas', but not all questions that I ask thinking that I might be persuaded either. Just curious as to how you (or you guys, the LDS) treat certain passages laid against the church's doctrine. And providing a format for the asking of questions and the statements of doctrine that you seemed to want by starting the thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22