What I actually believe -- sharing love of Christ

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
(Addressing this out of order)
And, yeah, no 'gotchas', but not all questions that I ask thinking that I might be persuaded either. Just curious as to how you (or you guys, the LDS) treat certain passages laid against the church's doctrine. And providing a format for the asking of questions and the statements of doctrine that you seemed to want by starting the thread.
I do believe you in that regard now. My earlier precaution was nothing personal just... the result of many bad experiences over the years. This real type of conversation is actually the type of thing I'm always hoping for (whether it's explaining my beliefs or me learning about another's).

Next one. If you are interested. Again, from the KJV...

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27

I don't see then any place for Proxy baptisms or chances for those in Hell during the Millennium to get a second chance? Not that I believe people are immediately judged at physical death, but that their fate is sealed. The Righteous to abide in the presence of the Lord as spirits. Awaiting the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Unrighteous to Hades. Awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.

I will even go a bit further. Most people seem to believe that until one draws their last breath that they can always repent and turn to God. But I remember reading a long time ago some passages that made me think a person can become so hard hearted, rebuffing the Holy Spirit enough times such that they cross of point of no return even before physical death. But this is not a doctrine I argue for.
LDS aren't sola scriptura, let alone sola Biblia. Hence beliefs outside of those.

For me, the fact that God is infinitely just necessitates that everyone be given the chance hear the Gospel and accept Christ. Some people just don't get that chance during mortality, due to no fault of their own. Hence people having that chance after death is completely sound with God's infinitely just character. There are a number of verses in the Bible that I feel point to this as well, like

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The liberty being preached to the captives Isa 49:9, Isa 22:22, Isa 61:1, Luke 4:18
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25
Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20.

To me, these verses clearly point in that direction, but obviously respect other views have different interpretations.
 
Last edited:

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
(Addressing this out of order)

I do believe you in that regard now. My earlier precaution was nothing personal just... the result of many bad experiences over the years. This real type of conversation is actually the type of thing I'm always hoping for (whether it's explaining my beliefs or me learning about another's).

LDS aren't sola scriptura, let alone sola Biblia. Hence beliefs outside of those.

Good. Yeah, these types of things usually deteriorate into arguments. I believe the doctrines speak for themselves and that people have to makeup their own minds.

I do not understand the difference between sola scriptura and sola Biblia. I am certain that sola scriptura applies to the standard 66 book canon. Is then sola Biblia to mean things outside even the other writings that the LDS consider inspired? Or consider what you consider, if you will, the 'expanded' canon. I can go look it up. But these are writings you consider equal in authority to the traditional Protestant canon of
Scripture?

If this is unclear then not just Protestant bible or even just the LDS 'more inclusive' canon, but even to writing beyond that. Where does the Book of Mormon fit into this? I did read quotes from the Book of Moses earlier and one other one, I forget now.

This leaves a lot of room for change. Even to the current Doctrines & Covenants I suppose?

For me, the fact that God is infinitely just necessitates that everyone be given the chance hear the Gospel and accept Christ. Some people just don't get that chance during mortality, due to no fault of their own. Hence people having that chance after death is completely sound with God's infinitely just character. There are a number of verses in the Bible that I feel point to this as well, like

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The liberty being preached to the captives Isa 49:9, Isa 22:22, Isa 61:1, Luke 4:18
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25
Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20.

I understand this concern about the opportunity. Thought that Paul covered it in Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Thought that all those scriptures you quote applied to the period that Christ went to Paradise between the crucifixion and
His resurrection. All three use a past tense verb except for John. So I will go study that one. 1 Peter 3:18-20 seems clear about being in prison (Sheol).

I honestly do not see where Isa 22:22 and Isa 61:1 even apply here? Luke 4:18 is simply quoting Isa 61:1. Though as it is being fulfilled. Which is... awesome! :)
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I may have to call it an evening soon, but I wrote a joke for you.

"Mormons know that they can't dance,
Baptists just think that they can!"


No offense to anyone, mmkay?
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not understand the difference between sola scriptura and sola Biblia. I am certain that sola scriptura applies to the standard 66 book canon. Is then sola Biblia to mean things outside even the other writings that the LDS consider inspired? Or consider what you consider, if you will, the 'expanded' canon. I can go look it up. But these are writings you consider equal in authority to the traditional Protestant canon of
Scripture?

If this is unclear then not just Protestant bible or even just the LDS 'more inclusive' canon, but even to writing beyond that. Where does the Book of Mormon fit into this? I did read quotes from the Book of Moses earlier and one other one, I forget now.

This leaves a lot of room for change. Even to the current Doctrines & Covenants I suppose?
Bible cannons actually vary between 66 to 81 book counts. Good article on that: Books of the Bible - Wikipedia

LDS use the 66 book Bible (KJV for English), but do not constrains God's words to just that. The Book of Mormon is also considered scripture, along with the Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Additionally, God (via the Holy Spirit) continues to speak to us individually and collectively (the collective messages being received through prophets/apostles).

God's Truth never changes, but our mortal understanding of it does continue to grow individually and collectively.

I understand this concern about the opportunity. Thought that Paul covered it in Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Thought that all those scriptures you quote applied to the period that Christ went to Paradise between the crucifixion and
His resurrection. All three use a past tense verb except for John. So I will go study that one. 1 Peter 3:18-20 seems clear about being in prison (Sheol).
LDS view here: during those three days Christ was setting up this preaching to the dead. That preaching He set up still continues to this day.
I honestly do not see where Isa 22:22 and Isa 61:1 even apply here? Luke 4:18 is simply quoting Isa 61:1. Though as it is being fulfilled. Which is... awesome! :)
Typo correction: Isa 24:22 Sorry about that.

The captives being preached to are those spirits whom are held captive because of sin/darkness/lack of Truth. Preaching the Gospel to them and them accepting it sets them free.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I may have to call it an evening soon, but I wrote a joke for you.

"Mormons know that they can't dance,
Baptists just think that they can!"


No offense to anyone, mmkay?
Haha! I know I can't dance.

But i need to say: go watch some Latina dances (LDS or Baptist) before we make any final pronouncements there!
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LDS aren't sola scriptura, let alone sola Biblia. Hence beliefs outside of those.

I think that I understand this now? sola scriptura = Protestant bible and sola Biblica that plus the Book of Mormon? Are the Doctrines and Covenants are equal footing as far as authority goes? How about The Pearl of Great Price? Any others?
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bible cannons actually vary between 66 to 81 book counts. Good article on that: Books of the Bible - Wikipedia

LDS use the 66 book Bible (KJV for English), but do not constrains God's words to just that. The Book of Mormon is also considered scripture, along with the Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Additionally, God (via the Holy Spirit) continues to speak to us individually and collectively (the collective messages being received through prophets/apostles).

God's Truth never changes, but our mortal understanding of it does continue to grow individually and collectively.


LDS view here: during those three days Christ was setting up this preaching to the dead. That preaching He set up still continues to this day.

Typo correction: Isa 24:22 Sorry about that.

The captives being preached to are those spirits whom are held captive because of sin/darkness/lack of Truth. Preaching the Gospel to them and them accepting it sets them free.

Ah. Was researching this matter on the web when this came through. Didn't see this up above until I finished my reply. I got close.

Yes, I also read some those scriptures as spiritually dead as opposed to physically dead. This then occurs while physically alive. I suspect you will say both dead and alive physically?
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Haha! I know I can't dance.

But i need to say: go watch some Latina dances (LDS or Baptist) before we make any final pronouncements there!

So dancing isn't prohibited? I had some next door LDS neighbors in the 70s and this is what I was told. Good decent people, but kept to themselves.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So dancing isn't prohibited? I had some next door LDS neighbors in the 70s and this is what I was told. Good decent people, but kept to themselves.
There's nothing forbidding dancing at all. Like I used to teach Youth Group and we had dance instruction lesson, there's routine dances at the local college group, etc. My sister loves to salsa. I personally am just completely musically/dance challenged.
Edit-- ok, nothing forbidding clean dancing. Let's skip the dirty body-grinding stuff for obvious reasons. It's not forbidden, it's just not a good idea.
Ah. Was researching this matter on the web when this came through. Didn't see this up above until I finished my reply. I got close.
:)
Yes, I also read some those scriptures as spiritually dead as opposed to physically dead. This then occurs while physically alive. I suspect you will say both dead and alive physically?
Physically dead = ... well that's pretty obvious.
Spiritually dead = separated from God due to sin.

These can occur in any combo: like a person can be physically alive, but spiritually dead-- they don't heed the things of God and don't accept Him.
Another example: a person's body is physically dead, but their spirit is alive in Christ.

Christ's atonement paves the way for us to be saved from both physical death (aka be literally physically resurrected) and saved from spiritual death (being washed clean off our sins and reborn spiritually).
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Well naturally. We go out at 8 pm, dig up some corpses, dunked them, but then got to have them back by 10 before the graveyard keeper comes around.

^That is completely a joke.

Baptisms for the dead doesn't involve any corpse or anything gross like that. Or any "making someone Mormon". Rather, it is a baptism done by proxy for each person, and that person (who is biologically deceased, but still has a living spirit) has the choice whether or not to accept that baptism and taking upon Christ's name.
Why would a person that is already dead and judged need to be baptized?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Having out as spirits in either a temporary prison or paradise.
So....

1. Do you believe one MUST be baptized to enter into heaven eventually?

2. You do not believe jesus' death opened the gates of heaven and persons are still going to Abraham's Bossom as in Luke 16.....so.....why did Jesus die for us? Iow, in which atonement theory do you believe?
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So....

1. Do you believe one MUST be baptized to enter into heaven eventually?
Everyone reaches their final resting place after Christ's Return, the Millennium, and then the Final Judgement. Not before.

The act of getting dunked doesn't save anyone. But accepting Christ and taking on His name is part of being His disciple.

2. You do not believe jesus' death opened the gates of heaven and persons are still going to Abraham's Bossom as in Luke 16.....so.....
He's taken to spirit paradise. A temporary joyful place, awaiting the Final Judgement.
why did Jesus die for us? Iow, in which atonement theory do you believe?
To save us from death-- physical death, and spiritual death (which is separation from God because of sin). He is the ultimate sacrifce-- the unblemished lamb that takes upon our sins upon Himself.
It also enables Him to understand our wounds, succor us, and heal us.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Everyone reaches their final resting place after Christ's Return, the Millennium, and then the Final Judgement. Not before.

The act of getting dunked doesn't save anyone. But accepting Christ and taking on His name is part of being His disciple.


He's taken to spirit paradise. A temporary joyful place, awaiting the Final Judgement.

To save us from death-- physical death, and spiritual death (which is separation from God because of sin). He is the ultimate sacrifce-- the unblemished lamb that takes upon our sins upon Himself.
It also enables Him to understand our wounds, succor us, and heal us.
Interesting. I know nothing of your denomination.
Must go....but the right with God go to this place of comfort...what about those that are not right with God?

Do you believe in the real presence at communion?
How are sins forgiven?
Later.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Yes, I do believe that each person has existed eternally before birth and will continue to exist eternally afterwards
Is "living eternally" (in either direction) different then from being immortal? The Bible says that only God is immortal, and that He is Spirit. Thus God is the only immortal Spirit. The only Spirit to my understanding that had lived for eternity past... And grants eternity future to those who by faith receive Christ. Am I wrong in believing that LDS believe they are therefore immortal and in that sense a lesser sorry of God?

LDS aren't sola scriptura, let alone sola Biblia. Hence beliefs outside of those.
Do those beliefs outside of the Bible have to be in harmony with the Bible? What, or who, is your final authority on what is truth?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Sins where forgiven when Christ said" it is finished". Pity so few believe it is done.
Hey mj,,,where you been?
Nice to see you again. You're looking much taller these days...

Sins were forgiven BEFORE then too, no?
I DO believe we're to ask forgiveness, although these days some say it's not even necessary.

Catholics, for instance, go to confession... so I'm wondering if LDS have any special method...