What I actually believe -- sharing love of Christ

[GodsGrace]

Is "living eternally" (in either direction) different then from being immortal? The Bible says that only God is immortal, and that He is Spirit. Thus God is the only immortal Spirit. The only Spirit to my understanding that had lived for eternity past... And grants eternity future to those who by faith receive Christ. Am I wrong in believing that LDS believe they are therefore immortal and in that sense a lesser sorry of God?


Do those beliefs outside of the Bible have to be in harmony with the Bible? What, or who, is your final authority on what is truth?

I too wonder if @Jane_Doe22 means existed in God's mind,,,which is possible since God is outside of time and for Him it's forever NOW.

OR, if she means literally in some sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone reaches their final resting place after Christ's Return, the Millennium, and then the Final Judgement. Not before.

The act of getting dunked doesn't save anyone. But accepting Christ and taking on His name is part of being His disciple.


He's taken to spirit paradise. A temporary joyful place, awaiting the Final Judgement.

To save us from death-- physical death, and spiritual death (which is separation from God because of sin). He is the ultimate sacrifce-- the unblemished lamb that takes upon our sins upon Himself.
It also enables Him to understand our wounds, succor us, and heal us.

I've never heard of this temporary place. I do believe we go to be where we belong upon death.
2 Corinthians 5:8

Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise that very day,,,but Paradise no longer exists since Jesus' resurrection. Paradise was the temporary place...
Why would anyone have to go to paradise instead of heaven if Jesus paid for our sins, as you say?? What scripture is this based on?

 

[Taken]

For me, the fact that God is infinitely just necessitates that everyone be given the chance hear the Gospel and accept Christ.

Some people just don't get that chance during mortality, due to no fault of their own.

Speaking Specifically of the Gospel;

In the day Jesus was Born there were estimated 300 thousand People.

That 300 K bench mark IS about the same as the Number of People in the US today.

Within 3 years of Jesus' Ministry, and Jesus leaving the Earth (bodily), Jesus sent out into the "world" His Disciples, (which numbered beyond the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul).

Crowds Heard, Crowds dispersed, Crowds talked, discussed, among their own.

The Disciples were charged/appointed with Speaking/Spreading the Word of God; the Gospel.

They also were charged with pronouncing Baptism of the Holy Spirit TO MEN, WHO, were Hearing AND such men choosing to Believe what they were Hearing, and such men choosing to BECOME Baptized unto Christ Jesus.

Nearing the 1800's bench mark of time...
The population of the WORLD, is estimated to be ONE BILLION.

One Billion People throughout the World, and men armed with the Gospel throughout the World preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No different as in Jesus' Day...
Smaller Population, Smaller Crowds, Fewer Preachers...
Greater Population, Greater number of Crowds, Greater number of Preachers.

No different than in Jesus' Day...
Crowds come, Crowds hear, AND?
SOME believed, SOME did not.

The accountability TO ANY MAN, is solely based on "IF" they have HEARD.

The SOLE "accountability", TO a Converted man IS TO "SPEAK the Word of God"..
for others TO HEAR.

The Accepting or Rejecting of the "LISTENERS", is SOLELY what Includes them or Separates them.

Today the World Population is an estimated SEVEN BILLION.
Considering, Many people live in cities, but also remote areas....
Preachers within the World Population has also Increased.

Consider, certain Nations, that openly allow preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....
And certain Nations, who persecute openly preaching of the Godpel of Jesus Chirst....

Has the Spread of, Speaking of, Teaching of, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, been Stopped?

No. Has Persecution of Teachers/Preachers and Converts INCREASED? No

Persecution of ^^ those people Happened IN Jesus DAY, TO Jesus Himself....and Continued with His disciples, Apostles, and continues TODAY.

(^^ THAT is precisely what Jesus meant at the Last Supper, when He asked those dining with Him.......IF THEY WERE ABLE TO DRINK FROM tHe SAME CUP, Jesus was drinking of)

Matt 20 [22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

That ^ is a forewarning. Any man WILLING to Drink of the same Cup.....ARE drinking of the Cup of Indignation and Persecution THE WORLD will Heap up you, BECAUSE you have heard (and accepted, His Gospel)....thus the reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The WORLD will HATE YOU, and may even KILL YOUR BODY.....as was the result we know happened to Jesus.

It is NOT a light Decision for any man to make.....However it IS THEE most prominent Teaching IN Scripture....To Put the Word of God Above All other things, INCLUDING your own physical Life (which we already know, at all cost that IS the one thing most every man is willing to do pretty much ANYTHING, to Keep his Bodily Life ALIVE).

Hence people having that chance after death is completely sound with God's infinitely just character. There are a number of verses in the Bible that I feel point to this as well, like

Preaching throughout the World, in Jesus' Day and Today....is NOT about Preaching to "Physically" Dead People....But rather Preaching TO "spiritually Dead People".

As in the Day IN the OT, since Jesus' Day, and Today........Physically Dead People (BODIES)...KNOW Nothing. They can not hear, or speak, or in any fashion Hear or Confess Belief. They are DEAD. They can be autopsied, buried, burned, eaten by buzzards.....and they Know or Feel Nothing.

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The Gospel IS Preached:
TO the Spiritually Dead.

They that hear, believe & accept the Lord...
WILL Be Judged, according to Flesh Living men.....Just as Jesus was Judged according to Flesh Living men....and KILLED.

(this ties into Drinking of the same Cup Jesus drank from....)

Men in the flesh, WILL JUDGE men IN Christ, and in some Nations of the World, the Flesh Judgement of men....will Dictate, per their own laws....that Men IN Christ spreading the Word of God...ARE SUBJECT TO BEING BODILY KILLED....
However 1 Pet 4:6 adds....such a man, IS also Living according to God in the spirit....

Again, that is a man who may be Bodily Killed, but already Alive forever IN Christ.

The liberty being preached to the captives Isa 49:9, Isa 22:22, Isa 61:1, Luke 4:18
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25
Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20.

Captives/Prisoners....OF WHO?
Steel and concrete Buildings men have built?

If a man HAS become in the OT faithful to the Word of God, "through" the Law given them...
WHO is their Captor?
WHO are they Subject TO Forever?
WHO are they Sealed TO Forever?

God.

Same IF a man HAS become in the NT and forward faithful to the Word of God "through" Christ Jesus...
WHO is their Captor, they subject TO forever, they Sealed To forever?

Christ the Lord Jesus their God who appeared in the Flesh, and men Gave their Life TO Him.

To me, these verses clearly point in that direction, but obviously respect other views have different interpretations.

Consider what you learned early on...
All earthly men are naturally born...
(Dead to God)...---> Spiritually Dead.

It is While a natural born man IS physically alive, that he can Hear, and Choose to believe and commit to what he Hears....or NOT.

Choosing to NOT Believe and Commit..
..the man will Physically Die....and Spiritually remain Forever Separated from God.
(His Body Dead, His living Soul separated existing in Hell until Gods Judgement, His spirit having never been born again)
His body raised in damnation. Judged and Destroyed.

Choosing TO Believe and Commit..
..the may certainally Physically Die...and Spiritually Forever Be with God.
(His Body spiritually dead, crucified with Christ, He may Bodily experience physical death, His living Soul in Heaven with God, His born again Spirit in Heaven in Gods Hands)
His body raised in glory.

Peter 3:18 - 20 is speaking of Physically Dead Bodies and Living Souls of the Believers and Committed....being held in Hell.
Prisoners? Yes. Their Living Souls could not leave. Why? Because their Saved Living Souls could NOT go to Heaven....Until AFTER Jesus' Living soul went to Heaven.

Jesus' Body had not YET revived and come back to Living. No Bodies can revive and revive to a Living state, WITHOUT the SOUL being IN the BODY.

Jesus IS FIRST in ALL THINGS.
^ That was revealed knowledge in the NT.
He was FIRST TO Be the Word of God,
^ That was revealed knowledge in the NT.
He was FIRST TO Be Killed.
He was FIRST TO Be in Hell.
^ That occured BEFORE ADAM.
He was FIRST TO Leave Hell.
^ That was revealed knowledge in the NT.

Saved Souls are NO LONGER "waiting" in Hell......They have been raised up to Heaven.

Unsaved Souls remain in "waiting" in Hell.

And every day....more living souls in Faithfulness depart their physically dead bodies and go to Heaven.

And every day...more living souls without Faithfulness depart their physically dead bodies and go to Hell.

There is NO Teaching of Salvation Given to souls IN HELL.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

But you believe that Christ and the Father are two distinct Persons?

"Mormons believe that Jesus Christ has always been a separate person from God the Father"
Who is Jesus Christ?

Aren't you (Jane) against creeds saying they are man made?

 

[Taken]

Is "living eternally" (in either direction) different then from being immortal? The Bible says that only God is immortal, and that He is Spirit. Thus God is the only immortal Spirit. The only Spirit to my understanding that had lived for eternity past... And grants eternity future to those who by faith receive Christ. Am I wrong in believing that LDS believe they are therefore immortal and in that sense a lesser sorry of God?

Do those beliefs outside of the Bible have to be in harmony with the Bible? What, or who, is your final authority on what is truth?

Not speaking to what LDS believe...

Mortal...according to the World, simply means a NATURALLY Born BODY that IS ALIVE.
AND...
That that BODY "IS" Subject to DEATH...
Meaning IT WILL DIE.

Scripture teaches....Yep, sure thing...IF a naturally born body is born alive..
That Naturally Born Body WILL DIE.

Something the OT men did not KNOW, was Kept Secret from them...IS THAT..

ANY MAN naturally Born, WHO physically DIES, "with faithfulness TO THE WORD OF GOD"....

SHALL BE Raised UP in a "NEW BODY", that will NEVER be subject to DEATH.

That has not YET occured...thus NONE have accomplished IMMORTALITY, and why men are still observed and see Human Flesh and Blood.

Scripture does not Speak of ... Men being Able to SEE an IMMORTAL body, but rather, scripture speaks of "PUTTING ON" immortality.

For a man to "PUT ON" immortality, is to say, ACCORDING TO GOD, WHAT He who IS Spirit can See and Do....

Men WHO have Become Dead (crucified) with Christ, their Soul Saved, their Spirit Quickened.....ARE ACCOUNTED IN Gods books, records, evidence.....As cleansed, sanctified, Sealed....AND JUSTIFIED to BE Raised UP, IMMORTAL.

Gods records reflect, Imortality of a Saved and Quickened man.

However From the Beginning, God taught, MEN have to "WAIT" and "SEE" for what God proclaims...."to come to pass".

Bodies of men becoming IMMORTAL, has not yet "come to pass".

Body's of men "dead in Christ", are still "dead".
Body's of the OT saints "dead in the Word of God", are still "dead".

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

(Addressing this out of order)

I do believe you in that regard now. My earlier precaution was nothing personal just... the result of many bad experiences over the years. This real type of conversation is actually the type of thing I'm always hoping for (whether it's explaining my beliefs or me learning about another's).


LDS aren't sola scriptura, let alone sola Biblia. Hence beliefs outside of those.

For me, the fact that God is infinitely just necessitates that everyone be given the chance hear the Gospel and accept Christ. Some people just don't get that chance during mortality, due to no fault of their own. Hence people having that chance after death is completely sound with God's infinitely just character. There are a number of verses in the Bible that I feel point to this as well, like

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The liberty being preached to the captives Isa 49:9, Isa 22:22, Isa 61:1, Luke 4:18
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25
Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20.

To me, these verses clearly point in that direction, but obviously respect other views have different interpretations.

I'm still having trouble with your rejection of creeds while you say you are not sola scriptura. Can you explain this? Do Mormons have creeds?

 

[Blueberry]

Is "living eternally" (in either direction) different then from being immortal? The Bible says that only God is immortal, and that He is Spirit. Thus God is the only immortal Spirit. The only Spirit to my understanding that had lived for eternity past... And grants eternity future to those who by faith receive Christ. Am I wrong in believing that LDS believe they are therefore immortal and in that sense a lesser sorry of God?

This seems to be what I am reading. Existing in some sense from eternity past as an 'individual intelligence' in some form. That we were first born spiritually in Heaven and later born physically into our mortal bodies. Just like God Himself...allegedly.

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

When the time came that His firstborn, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favored that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Savior was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me.

And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever.

Journal of Discourses Vol. 4, page 128

Blasphemy.

Do those beliefs outside of the Bible have to be in harmony with the Bible? What, or who, is your final authority on what is truth?

Apparently the ultimate authority is the Book of Mormon.

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

And the prophets (both from the 1800s and until today), "Doctrines & Covenants", "The Pearl of Great Price" and any current teachings or writing they deem inspired. Such as are the above. Which is just the writings of one of the prophets. But this is just my rudimentary understanding thus far.

Do you believe that you have existed eternally as an individual 'intelligence'?

You saw how hard it was to get a straight answer to even this straightforward question. I will now probably be accused of some sort of 'gotcha', but I truly listened to the ideas presented. Then went and checked them out for myself. The above, and more, is what I found.

 

[Blueberry]

Sins where forgiven when Christ said" it is finished". Pity so few believe it is done.

Amen brother!

 

[Blueberry]

And the hits just keep on coming!...

Important teachings in the Journal of Discourses

Joseph Smith
vol. 6 p. 3 "King Follett Discourse" - God's nature 1844
Brigham Young
vol. 1 p. 41 No better man ever lived than Joseph Smith
vol. 1 p. 50-51 Adam is God (1852)
vol. 1 p. 50 Jesus begotten by the first man (Adam)
vol. 1 p. 83 Kill apostates
vol. 1 p. 108-109 Kill the thieves on the spot
vol. 1 p. 219 Rock will decay - Gold and silver grow, same as hair in your head
vol. 2 p. 171 God did not come but sent His angel (in First Vision)
vol. 3 p. 93 God create men to become Gods
vol. 3 p. 212 Brigham an apostle of JOSEPH SMITH
vol. 3 p. 266 Give up polygamy - you will be damned
vol. 3 p. 319 Adam came here from an other planet, brought seeds, animals and a wife with him (see also vol. 8 p.243-244).
vol. 4 p. 41 Brigham to bow to Joseph Smith
vol. 4 p 53-54 Blood of Jesus doesn't cover all sins (your own blood must atone).
vol. 4 p. 77 We have the greatest liars, thieves,and other shade of characters etc. in the world. We can beat the world at any game.
vol. 4 p. 78 he [Joseph Smith] may get drunk, sleep with his neighbor's wife, run horses and gamble, I do not care, doctrine he brought will save the world.
vol. 4 p. 217-218 Adam-god etc., Jesus son of this Father.
vol. 4 p. 219-220 Must have blood shed for adultery etc. Will you love your brothers and sisters enough to shed their blood? That is the way to love mankind.
vol. 5 p. 331-332 Adam is God (1857)
vol. 6 p. 176 Religions of the day are hatched in hell (1858)
vol. 7 p. 19 Wipe unclean out of existence
vol. 7 p. 20 Jesus believed in severing heads of adulterers
vol. 7 p. 164 Witnesses of the BoM were afterwards left to doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel.
vol. 7 p. 289 Men must have consent of Joseph Smith to enter heaven
vol. 7 p. 290-291 Cain's mark: a flat nose and black skin. Blacks are uncomely, low, wild and deprived of all blessings of intelligence. They are cursed with flat nose and black skin and can never hold the priesthood untill all other decendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and keys.
vol. 7 p. 333 God was once a man like us. There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds.
vol. 8 p. 176 Whosoever does NOT confess Joseph Smith is of God is of AntiChrist
vol. 8 p. 181 Christians are heathens as to knowledge of salvation
vol. 8 p. 199 Christians are ignorant
vol. 10 p. 110 White who marry blacks - death on the spot - it will always be so!
vol. 10 p. 250 Civil war won't free the slaves
vol. 11 p. 239 Give up polygamy and the Devil will rejoice
vol. 11 p. 269 Men who become sons of God MUST enter into polygamy
vol. 13 p. 95 BYs sermons are scripture
vol. 13 p. 309 Jesus' "train" of wives and children
Heber C. Kimball
vol. 2 p. 106 People MUST do as Joseph Smith says
vol. 4 p. 375 If a man turns traitor to God, his blood will be shead
vol. 5 p. 88 All will some day look upon Joseph Smith as a God
vol. 5 p. 95 Cursing enemies and President of U.S.
vol. 5 p. 133 President of U.S. cursed of God
vol. 5 p. 203 Deny polygamy - you deny Mormonism
vol. 5 p. 219 Brigham to be president of U.S.
vol. 6 p. 29 God did NOT come in to JS
vol. 6 p. 32 Listen - do as your leaders say - right or wrong
vol. 6 p. 34 Be as ready to shed blood as to eat an apple
vol. 8 p. 211 God, a natural man, had a father also
John Taylor
vol. 5 p. 167 Christianity is a pack of nonsense
vol. 6 p. 25 Christians are as ignorant as brute beasts
vol. 6 p. 163 Mormons - Saviours of the World
vol. 6 p. 176 Religions of the day hatched in hell
vol. 13 p. 225 Christians are veriest of fools
vol. 20 p. 167 Angel visited Joseph Smith in 1st vision
vol. 21 p. 165 Mormonism must ALL be true or else it is ALL false
vol. 22 p. 304 Blacks are Devil's representatives on earth

vol. 23 p. 336
George A. Smith
vol. 12 p. 334 Angel visited Joseph Smith in 1st vision
vol. 16 p. 238 Mormons doing a great business in coffee, tea and tobacco
Orson Pratt
vol. 1 p. 62-63 Negroes from degraded parents and less intelligent than others
vol. 2 p. 293 Angel says that the original Book of Mormon translated correctly (i.e. no changes needed - ever)
vol. 6 p. 351 Book of Mormon condemns polygamy
Jed. M. Grant
vol. 4 p. 49 Select place to shed blood
Wilford Woodruff
vol. 13 p. 166 Give up polygamy and you might as well give up
prophets, apostles and revelation
Orson Hyde
vol. 2 p. 82 Jesus married in Cana
vol. 2 p. 210 Jesus married in Cana and begat children
H.W. Naisbett
vol. 26 p. 115 Joseph Smith taught that Adam had two wives

Unbelievable!

Blasphemy.

 

[Blueberry]

Joseph Smith
vol. 6 p. 3 "King Follett Discourse" - God's nature 1844

Vol. 6, p.3 God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, —I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

Blasphemy

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Interesting. I know nothing of your denomination.

That's why I started this thread

Must go....but the right with God go to this place of comfort...what about those that are not right with God?

Temporary prison until they accept Christ or the Final Judgement.

Do you believe in the real presence at communion?

The Lord's Supper is symbolic. Partaking in it is for remembrance of Him and we recommit/renew our promises with Him.

How are sins forgiven?

Through Christ. A person must accept Him, His forgiveness, and His ways.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is "living eternally" (in either direction) different then from being immortal? The Bible says that only God is immortal, and that He is Spirit. Thus God is the only immortal Spirit. The only Spirit to my understanding that had lived for eternity past... And grants eternity future to those who by faith receive Christ.

Which verse are you referring to so I can address that one specifically?

Am I wrong in believing that LDS believe they are therefore immortal and in that sense a lesser sorry of God?

God is Perfect: perfect justice, mercy, will, love, knowledge, power, etc. We are all FAR from that! (Understatement of the century).

Do those beliefs outside of the Bible have to be in harmony with the Bible?

Yes, though interpretations may vary compared to a Catholic's, or Baptist's, or Anglican, etc. As we've seen on this forum, there's a wide variety of beliefs/interpretations.

What, or who, is your final authority on what is truth?

God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hey mj,,,where you been?
Nice to see you again. You're looking much taller these days...

Sins were forgiven BEFORE then too, no?
I DO believe we're to ask forgiveness, although these days some say it's not even necessary.

Catholics, for instance, go to confession... so I'm wondering if LDS have any special method...

All faiths I've studied in Christendom, even Christendom broadly defined, believe that it's Christ and His sacrifice are what save us. There is some variance on the steps involved there, like if a person believes in OSAS, or if a believer should make certain promises to God, wether salvation is a continual process or once-and-done-event, etc.

LDS aren't OSAS, don't view salvation as a once-and-done event, and do believe that there are certain promises a believer should do as part of being a disciple of Christ (like baptism).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I too wonder if @Jane_Doe22 means existed in God's mind,,,which is possible since God is outside of time and for Him it's forever NOW.

OR, if she means literally in some sense.

Jeremiah 1:5 is literal.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I've never heard of this temporary place. I do believe we go to be where we belong upon death.
2 Corinthians 5:8

Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise that very day,,,but Paradise no longer exists since Jesus' resurrection. Paradise was the temporary place...

My view: Temporary spirit paradise does still exist, and will until after Christ's return, the Millennium, and Final Judgement. After the Final Judgement, believers in Christ go to a eternal place of ridiculous-mind-blowing-happiencess with God.

Why would anyone have to go to paradise instead of heaven if Jesus paid for our sins, as you say?? What scripture is this based on?

LDS views of after-death events are not your typical Christians (as you seen). "Heaven" as said by most Christians, could refer to either temporary spirit paradise, or post Final Judgement eternal place of glory.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Speaking Specifically of the Gospel...

Not speaking to what LDS believe...

Thank you for sharing your views @Taken

 

[Dave L]

My view: Temporary spirit paradise does still exist, and will until after Christ's return, the Millennium, and Final Judgement. After the Final Judgement, believers in Christ go to a eternal place of ridiculous-mind-blowing-happiencess with God.

LDS views of after-death events are not your typical Christians (as you seen). "Heaven" as said by most Christians, could refer to either temporary spirit paradise, or post Final Judgement eternal place of glory.

I would still like to know why you reject Christian creeds as being man made, but accept Mormon Creeds as though they are not man made? Are they not man made?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This seems to be what I am reading. .

As I said at the beginning of this thread there are a TON of myths out there about what LDS believe. Some of these are even found on other Christians denominational pages. My advice: if you want to know what a Baptist believes, ask a Baptist. A Catholic or Catholic website, while they may (or may not) be well intentioned, just isn't as good of a source on what a Baptist believes. And same with every other group.

@Blueberry , skimming through your posts here, you site(s) you've been reading on isn't giving you good information. For example, if a site tells you "Mormons believe this as <X>" and cites "The Journal of Discourses", then they are 99% of the time a crap site giving you crap information. "The Journal of Discourses" is not remotely a source of LDS doctrine, nor read/studied in Mormon church, and in fact as a number of problems with it -- important facts that a crap source will conveniently neglect to tell as they then at cite it over and over again.

Since the crap source gave you a lot of bad info, my next post will be sorting out real beliefs vs myths.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

(Reordering your post to make this reply simpler, hope you don't mind)
(See my previous post on how "Journal of Discourses" isn't a source of LDS doctrine)

The following are actually Mormon beliefs--

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles

True, in fact we talked about this early this thread.





The following are myths and are not LDS doctrine --

<anything regarding the Father's history>

Vol. 6, p.3 God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, —I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

Not actually Mormon doctrine. There are two speculative sources (see quoted above) which talk about this, but they are NOT authoritative doctrine that any Mormon has to believe, nor or they actually talked about or discussed in LDS Church. A person is 100% free to completely think these speculations are complete bonk,think "I don't know", or not have an opinion on the matter, or or agree with a completely different understanding that what you're thinking right now. And all of those people can be LDS in 100% in good standing and all sit next to each other on the same pews.

Apparently the ultimate authority is the Book of Mormon.

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

And the prophets (both from the 1800s and until today), "Doctrines & Covenants", "The Pearl of Great Price" and any current teachings or writing they deem inspired. Such as are the above. Which is just the writings of one of the prophets. But this is just my rudimentary understanding thus far.

God is the ultimate authority.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And the hits just keep on coming!...

@Blueberry , I don't doubt your intentions here at all. I like you. But the website(s) your looking at is downright crap and lying to you.

Again, "Journal of Discourses" isn't even an LDS doctrinal source. This list (below) is... frankly complete bunk in a whole number of colorful ways. If you want me to set the record straight on any particular point, I can. Just seems silly right now to go through every point (you probably don't want to read that)/ But yeah, this list is complete bunk.

Important teachings in the Journal of Discourses

Joseph Smith
vol. 6 p. 3 "King Follett Discourse" - God's nature 1844
Brigham Young
vol. 1 p. 41 No better man ever lived than Joseph Smith
vol. 1 p. 50-51 Adam is God (1852)
vol. 1 p. 50 Jesus begotten by the first man (Adam)
vol. 1 p. 83 Kill apostates
vol. 1 p. 108-109 Kill the thieves on the spot
vol. 1 p. 219 Rock will decay - Gold and silver grow, same as hair in your head
vol. 2 p. 171 God did not come but sent His angel (in First Vision)
vol. 3 p. 93 God create men to become Gods
vol. 3 p. 212 Brigham an apostle of JOSEPH SMITH
vol. 3 p. 266 Give up polygamy - you will be damned
vol. 3 p. 319 Adam came here from an other planet, brought seeds, animals and a wife with him (see also vol. 8 p.243-244).
vol. 4 p. 41 Brigham to bow to Joseph Smith
vol. 4 p 53-54 Blood of Jesus doesn't cover all sins (your own blood must atone).
vol. 4 p. 77 We have the greatest liars, thieves,and other shade of characters etc. in the world. We can beat the world at any game.
vol. 4 p. 78 he [Joseph Smith] may get drunk, sleep with his neighbor's wife, run horses and gamble, I do not care, doctrine he brought will save the world.
vol. 4 p. 217-218 Adam-god etc., Jesus son of this Father.
vol. 4 p. 219-220 Must have blood shed for adultery etc. Will you love your brothers and sisters enough to shed their blood? That is the way to love mankind.
vol. 5 p. 331-332 Adam is God (1857)
vol. 6 p. 176 Religions of the day are hatched in hell (1858)
vol. 7 p. 19 Wipe unclean out of existence
vol. 7 p. 20 Jesus believed in severing heads of adulterers
vol. 7 p. 164 Witnesses of the BoM were afterwards left to doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel.
vol. 7 p. 289 Men must have consent of Joseph Smith to enter heaven
vol. 7 p. 290-291 Cain's mark: a flat nose and black skin. Blacks are uncomely, low, wild and deprived of all blessings of intelligence. They are cursed with flat nose and black skin and can never hold the priesthood untill all other decendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and keys.
vol. 7 p. 333 God was once a man like us. There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds.
vol. 8 p. 176 Whosoever does NOT confess Joseph Smith is of God is of AntiChrist
vol. 8 p. 181 Christians are heathens as to knowledge of salvation
vol. 8 p. 199 Christians are ignorant
vol. 10 p. 110 White who marry blacks - death on the spot - it will always be so!
vol. 10 p. 250 Civil war won't free the slaves
vol. 11 p. 239 Give up polygamy and the Devil will rejoice
vol. 11 p. 269 Men who become sons of God MUST enter into polygamy
vol. 13 p. 95 BYs sermons are scripture
vol. 13 p. 309 Jesus' "train" of wives and children
Heber C. Kimball
vol. 2 p. 106 People MUST do as Joseph Smith says
vol. 4 p. 375 If a man turns traitor to God, his blood will be shead
vol. 5 p. 88 All will some day look upon Joseph Smith as a God
vol. 5 p. 95 Cursing enemies and President of U.S.
vol. 5 p. 133 President of U.S. cursed of God
vol. 5 p. 203 Deny polygamy - you deny Mormonism
vol. 5 p. 219 Brigham to be president of U.S.
vol. 6 p. 29 God did NOT come in to JS
vol. 6 p. 32 Listen - do as your leaders say - right or wrong
vol. 6 p. 34 Be as ready to shed blood as to eat an apple
vol. 8 p. 211 God, a natural man, had a father also
John Taylor
vol. 5 p. 167 Christianity is a pack of nonsense
vol. 6 p. 25 Christians are as ignorant as brute beasts
vol. 6 p. 163 Mormons - Saviours of the World
vol. 6 p. 176 Religions of the day hatched in hell
vol. 13 p. 225 Christians are veriest of fools
vol. 20 p. 167 Angel visited Joseph Smith in 1st vision
vol. 21 p. 165 Mormonism must ALL be true or else it is ALL false
vol. 22 p. 304 Blacks are Devil's representatives on earth

vol. 23 p. 336
George A. Smith
vol. 12 p. 334 Angel visited Joseph Smith in 1st vision
vol. 16 p. 238 Mormons doing a great business in coffee, tea and tobacco
Orson Pratt
vol. 1 p. 62-63 Negroes from degraded parents and less intelligent than others
vol. 2 p. 293 Angel says that the original Book of Mormon translated correctly (i.e. no changes needed - ever)
vol. 6 p. 351 Book of Mormon condemns polygamy
Jed. M. Grant
vol. 4 p. 49 Select place to shed blood
Wilford Woodruff
vol. 13 p. 166 Give up polygamy and you might as well give up
prophets, apostles and revelation
Orson Hyde
vol. 2 p. 82 Jesus married in Cana
vol. 2 p. 210 Jesus married in Cana and begat children
H.W. Naisbett
vol. 26 p. 115 Joseph Smith taught that Adam had two wives

Unbelievable!

Blasphemy.