What is Mariology?

[face2face]

John Henry Newman famously said when a Protestant said to him "We both worship the same God", replied "Yes, you in your way, I in His way"

Counter reformation language - the Mother Harlot calling hers daughters to return home! In the end I believe she will have her victory but a short lived one at that.

 

[face2face]

@Marymog @Illuminator @Mungo

Is this the earliest non Biblical record you can produce to support Mariology?

Irenaeus “The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

[Taken]

why do you think “mother of God” means mother of the divine nature?

IGNORE.

 

[JohnPaul]

We have no idols
Only God may be worshiped that’s the first commandment

youre an apostle and are able to offer the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ?

So what are the effigies of our Lord Jesus, Mary and Saint Anthony, that are throughout the Church and the Blessed Mother holding our Lord baby Jesus in her arms, that I always see when I was still going to Church? As a matter of fact, I had a wedding in a Catholic Church this past Friday and the same Idols were throughout the Church.

And the people kneeling and praying to them, this is not Idolatry?

 

[theefaith]

Where do you find that?

from taken

 

[theefaith]

IGNORE.

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, co Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death

Likewise an Attack on Mary and the saints, or the authority of the apostles or the church or rejection of such doctrines is and attack on God and on Christ!
Acts 9:4 Eph 5:32

 

[Taken]

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, co Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death


PRAISE Mary? PRAISE Saints?
Because "they are what GOD MADE THEM?"

Duh...PRAISE GOD!! Not what God has MADE!

Likewise an Attack on Mary and the saints, or the authority of the apostles or the church or rejection of such doctrines is and attack on God and on Christ!
Acts 9:4 Eph 5:32

IRRELEVANT...without revealing ATTACKS against anything.

 

[theefaith]

They justify their idols by representing them as so called immortalised saints. Everything is justifiable by the RCC...that's why using the inspired Word is pointless...this thread has proven that. The most refreshing thing to come out of this is the personal conviction of JohnPaul. It's an excellent testimony to have someone who actually knows the system and its corrupt practices.

images are not forbidden

idols graven images worshiping something as if it were God are all forbidden

Exodus 25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make th

no response on Mary mother of God

what to tackle the perpetual virginity of Mary now?

 

[theefaith]

So what are the effigies of our Lord Jesus, Mary and Saint Anthony, that are throughout the Church and the Blessed Mother holding our Lord baby Jesus in her arms, that I always see when I was still going to Church? As a matter of fact, I had a wedding in a Catholic Church this past Friday and the same Idols were throughout the Church.

And the people kneeling and praying to them, this is not Idolatry?

images are not forbidden

idols graven images worshiping something as if it were God are all forbidden

Exodus 25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold…

 

[face2face]

@Mungo @Illuminator @Marymog

John 2:12

Why did Mary and her children only stay with Jesus a few days?

It must have been “Uncomfortable” with his spiritual and natural family together “Not many days - AV” - Obviously did not work out - his family perhaps returned to Nazareth.

What is Mariology?

 

[face2face]

"He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan" 2 Kings 18:3-4

A really good example! And this was God directed what of those effigies which are not?
Thanks for using Scripture.

 

[Illuminator]

Deut. 4:15 – from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 – of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 – hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 – God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 – for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 – God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 – it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 – David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 – the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 – Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

 

[Illuminator]

Islamic Extremist Iconoclasm–and Its Christian Precedents


In recent days, there has been a global outcry about the destruction of the ancient Assyrian site of Nimrud by ISIS. Over the past few years, many invaluable antiquities and irreplaceable world heritage sites have fallen victim to Islamic extremists in countries like Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. The theological justification for these acts is that these artifacts are idols which propagate a false religion and seduce the faithful to stray from the path to true faith.

Perhaps the most spectacular act was the the destruction of two giant Buddhas in Afghanistan by the Taliban in 2001. Ever since then, Islamic extremists have destroyed valuable antiquities up to the most recent atrocities committed by ISIS. Aside from expunging idols of false religions, the destruction serves a second purpose: it has become part of a propaganda war in which ISIS is shocking Western audiences in order to remain relevant. The destruction of antiquities and its documentation in videos thus serve as propaganda stunts not unlike the brutal and inhuman beheading videos.

While these are despicable acts, the fact that we infidels find these acts reprehensible is part of the reason why they were committed in first place....
It is useful to remind ourselves that the Christian tradition had its own moments of sometimes violent iconoclasm–the theologically motivated destruction of religious artifacts. In the 8th and 9th centuries, the Byzantine Empire went through two periods of iconoclasm, for instance. But the most virulent example of Christian extremist iconoclasm is the Protestant Reform of the 16th century, promoted by Lutherans like Andreas Karlstadt and the two founding figures of the Reformed Church, Huldrych Zwingli and Jean Calvin. They regarded the visual representation of the divine as a form of heresy and ordered the systematic destruction of religious art in churches they controlled.

The Protestant iconoclastic fervor was as virulent and extreme as the destructive energy displayed by the modern-day Islamic extremists. In the Zwinglian part of Switzerland, and particularly in Zurich, churches were purged of all religious images in 1524. Wooden art was publicly burned, and stone sculptures damaged and destroyed with heavy tools. Similar purges happened in some South German cities in the following years. A wave of iconoclast riots swept through the Low Lands in 1566 as an expression of Calvinist assertion against Spanish-Catholic rule.

Islamic Extremist Iconoclasm–and Its Christian Precedents | Cultures Contexts

 

[GaryAnderson]

The Greek Orthodox Church has icons and they’re clear that they’re not worshipping the icon. The icon is meant to evoke an emotional and spiritual connection to the Lord. Just like when you have a picture of your child in your hand. You don’t literally love the piece of paper but the memories that it brings when the picture was taken.

 

[face2face]

The Greek Orthodox Church has icons and they’re clear that they’re not worshipping the icon. The icon is meant to evoke an emotional and spiritual connection to the Lord. Just like when you have a picture of your child in your hand. You don’t literally love the piece of paper but the memories that it brings when the picture was taken.

Could a union between the Catholic and Greek Orthodox be closer than many think? The counter reformation is at work in the earth and mother wants all her daughters back.

The icon is a late 17th, early 18th-century copy of the famous image of the Madonna of Kazan - the original of which was believed to have miracle-working powers.

You make up your own mind?

 

[Marymog]

Why do you want me to define worship, you think I don’t know what it means? I stopped going to Church period.

I want to know how YOU define it....that's why I asked.

 

[face2face]

With all that we have seen in our study of Mary from a Scriptural viewpoint, would you say she had an exemplary life? One thing I have noticed is the type of words Catholics use to describe Mary like impeccable, sinless and exemplary, one would think they are speaking to entirely different person than Mary of the Bible. Is it a case where an wrong idea has "gotten out of control" like Chinese Whispers? No matter what angle I approach Mary in the Bible nowhere is a sinless, impeccable life taught, actually it's the opposite.

For instance....why would Jesus say in John 2:4

"What have we in common"
"What has this to do with me?"
"Why bother me about this"

tn Grk “Woman, what to me and to you?” (an idiom). The phrase τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι (ti emoi kai soi, gunai) is Semitic in origin. The equivalent Hebrew expression in the Old Testament had two basic meanings:

(1) When one person was unjustly bothering another, the injured party could say “What to me and to you?” meaning, “What have I done to you that you should do this to me?” (Judges 11:12; 2 Chronicles 35:21, 1 Kings 17:18 ).

(2) When someone was asked to get involved in a matter he felt was no business of his, he could say to the one asking him, “What to me and to you?” meaning, “That is your business, how am I involved?” (2 Kings 3:13; Hosea 14:8).

Option (1) implies hostility, while option (2) implies merely disengagement. Mere disengagement is almost certainly to be understood here as better fitting the context (although some of the Greek Fathers took the remark as a rebuke to Mary, such a rebuke is unlikely).

If Mary is the Mother of God...why would Jesus seek to distance himself from Mary?

 

[Illuminator]

With all that we have seen in our study of Mary from a Scriptural viewpoint, would you say she had an exemplary life? One thing I have noticed is the type of words Catholics use to describe Mary like impeccable, sinless and exemplary, one would think they are speaking to entirely different person than Mary of the Bible. Is it a case where an wrong idea has "gotten out of control" like Chinese Whispers? No matter what angle I approach Mary in the Bible nowhere is a sinless, impeccable life taught, actually it's the opposite.

For instance....why would Jesus say in John 2:4

"What have we in common"
"What has this to do with me?"
"Why bother me about this"

tn Grk “Woman, what to me and to you?” (an idiom). The phrase τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι (ti emoi kai soi, gunai) is Semitic in origin. The equivalent Hebrew expression in the Old Testament had two basic meanings:

(1) When one person was unjustly bothering another, the injured party could say “What to me and to you?” meaning, “What have I done to you that you should do this to me?” (Judges 11:12; 2 Chronicles 35:21, 1 Kings 17:18 ).

(2) When someone was asked to get involved in a matter he felt was no business of his, he could say to the one asking him, “What to me and to you?” meaning, “That is your business, how am I involved?” (2 Kings 3:13; Hosea 14:8).

Option (1) implies hostility, while option (2) implies merely disengagement. Mere disengagement is almost certainly to be understood here as better fitting the context (although some of the Greek Fathers took the remark as a rebuke to Mary, such a rebuke is unlikely).

If Mary is the Mother of God...why would Jesus seek to distance himself from Mary?

You are saying Jesus violated the 4th commandment, "Honor your parents". Jesus is not a sinner. “What to me and to you?” is a Hebrew idiom that means deference to authority and is also found in Luke 4:34 where the demons defer to Christ's authority. “What to me and to you?” here Christ defers to Mary's authority followed by Mary's command to the servants, "Do whatever He tells you." This is the essence of all Catholic Mariology that you are blind to. It fits perfectly with the Hebrew idiom in John 2:4 that you have twisted into an opposite meaning.

Find another drum to beat, this one is boring.

 

[face2face]

You are saying Jesus violated the 4th commandment, "Honor your parents". Jesus is not a sinner. “What to me and to you?” is a Hebrew idiom that means deference to authority and is also found in Luke 4:34 where the demons defer to Christ's authority. “What to me and to you?” here Christ defers to Mary's authority followed by Mary's command to the servants, "Do whatever He tells you." This is the essence of all Catholic Mariology that you are blind to. It fits perfectly with the Hebrew idiom in John 2:4 that you have twisted into an opposite meaning.

Find another drum to beat, this one is boring.

Why did Mary say "do whatever he tells you?" seems Mary again "didn't" understand his comment about his future death. We know its an idiom, you are only stating what I wrote, which is a compliment "I guess", but you failed to define it.

Why did Jesus seek to distance himself from Mary?

Not sure how something so simple to understand can be so boring for you.

And I am not sure how the 4th commandment applies, if Jesus is in the right and Mary is in the wrong? That was a strange comment!!!

Also where on earth did you get demons from John 2:4 ???

Which one do you pick for John 2:4?

"What have we in common"
"What has this to do with me?"
"Why bother me about this"

Why did Jesus respond to Mary this way? Maybe the answer is not what you want to hear?

 

[face2face]

@Illuminator @Mungo @Marymog

Why did Jesus not include Mary and his brothers as being his true family?

Matthew 12:46-50
Mark 3:31-35
Luke 8:19-21

Up till this date in Jesus' ministry it isn't looking like Mary is the Mother of God - just saying.