What is Mariology?

[face2face]

Yes we know that, but it concerns the Immaculate Conception not ongoing sinlessness.

In other words Mary didn't need Christ as a savior because once deemed sinless Mary doesn't received the wages of sin which is death. Doctrinally Mungo cant have his cake and eat it to. Mary is either one, or the other.

 

[Mungo]

You believe Mary was healed of sin as though human nature has sin in it? i.e if you cut your arm off you have less sin.
So explain what God actually did to Mary physically that she could do no sin (preserved from it).

Mungo, I want your reply in your words.

You keep inventing things I didn't say or imply. Normally they are called lies.

I never suggested that God did anything to Mary physically. Did you bother to actually read what I wrote?
read the part of the quote from the Catechism:
infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
Nothing about chopping arms off.

Free life:


The RCC believes Mary was given a free life, we don't know how! Mungo is yet to explain the mechanics! We know she didn't require saving like the rest of humanity because a sinless person cannot perish.

Again you are telling lies.

Maybe he will say she was filled with a special Grace which Christ was not ?
Maybe he will say her flesh was not our flesh?
Maybe he will say she had more of the Holy Spirit than Christ himself who could sin?

Wouldn't it be nice to have a Bible verse to show this miraculous story of her immaculate conception?

Nothing.

May be all sorts of things.
But if you are going to ignore or lie about what I present then you are not going to understand.

 

[Mungo]

In other words Mary didn't need Christ as a savior because once deemed sinless Mary doesn't received the wages of sin which is death. Doctrinally Mungo cant have his cake and eat it to. Mary is either one, or the other.

Again more lies.

 

[face2face]

infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

You can say anything you want without a Scriptural reference. Quote please!

Can you explain how Mary was given a free life from sin but Jesus was not?
Can you explain the difference between Jesus being filled with the Spirit cmp to Mary?
Why was Jesus NOT "healed" from original sin and Mary was? Hebrews 2:17 is emphatic that Jesus was identical in every way to you but Mary clearly not!

 

[face2face]

Again more lies.

I've noticed Mungo when a Scriptural truth is presented to you and you don't know the answer, or you're lacking in understanding, you simply default to "Again more lies".

The Divine edict is Romans 6:23

If Mary did not sin then she needed no salvation.

You and I both know the Scripture is super clear she did...

“My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" Luke 1:46-47

The only reason Mary would rejoice in her Savior is if she needed saving i.e was a sinner.

 

[Mungo]

You can say anything you want without a Scriptural reference. Quote please!

You asked me for what I believed in my own words. I gave you an official explanation from the Catechism. I stand by that.

Can you explain how Mary was given a free life from sin but Jesus was not?

As I have said before "free life" is not biblical and can mean anything you want it to mean.
As you have just said: "You can say anything you want without a Scriptural reference"

Can you explain the difference between Jesus being filled with the Spirit cmp to Mary"?

Where have I said there is any "difference between Jesus being filled with the Spirit cmp to Mary"?

Why was Jesus NOT "healed" from original sin and Mary was? Hebrews 2:17 is emphatic that Jesus was identical in every way to you but Mary clearly not!

I've never said Mary was "healed" from original sin. You keep making up things I don't say. It's called lying.

 

[Mungo]

I've noticed Mungo when a Scriptural truth is presented to you and you don't know the answer, or you're lacking in understanding, you simply default to "Again more lies".

What scriptural truths have you told. Or do you think your opinions are scriptural truths?

The Divine edict is Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
How is that relevant to this discussion?

If Mary did not sin then she needed no salvation.

Untrue as has been explained many times.

You and I both know the Scripture is super clear she did.

Then perhaps you can quote some scriptures that say Mary sinned

“My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" Luke 1:46-47

The only reason Mary would rejoice in her Savior is if she needed saving i.e was a sinner.

No, as has been explained many times, she was saved from the effects of original sin. That is why she needed a saviour; not because she personally sinned.

 

[face2face]

No, as has been explained many times, she was saved from the effects of original sin. That is why she needed a saviour; not because she personally sinned.

Can you show me where you get this idea of "original sin" and "personal sin"?

Where in the Bible are they defined.

 

[face2face]

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are not able to show a Bible quote to prove immaculate conception, however the Bible holds that ALL people are sinners with the exception of Jesus Christ.

 

[face2face]

Can I also ask why it took to the year 1854 for this doctrine (immaculate conception) to be formulated? Do you have any supporting Scriptures which apparently lay dormant without interpretation for 100's if not 1000's of year?

 

[face2face]

No, as has been explained many times, she was saved from the effects of original sin. That is why she needed a saviour; not because she personally sinned.

How could she need a savior if she was sinless? Romans 6:23

 

[Mungo]

Can you show me where you get this idea of "original sin" and "personal sin"?

Where in the Bible are they defined.

When Adam sinned his sin affected the whole human race.
Rom 5:12 . "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man [Adam] and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned"

In verses 15-19 Paul tells us the consequences
15. For if many died through one man's trespass………
16. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, ………….
17. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, …………
18. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men,………
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,……

It is this effect on us of Adam's sin that we call original sin. It is not a sin we personally have committed but we suffer the effects.

Personal sins are those we personally commit. Do you need examples of that?

 

[Mungo]

You are not able to show a Bible quote to prove immaculate conception

Yes I am.

however the Bible holds that ALL people are sinners with the exception of Jesus Christ.

Can you show me a Bible quote to prove that?

 

[Mungo]

Can I also ask why it took to the year 1854 for this doctrine (immaculate conception) to be formulated? Do you have any supporting Scriptures which apparently lay dormant without interpretation for 100's if not 1000's of year?

The Church took centuries formulating dogmatic definitions, usually to combat heresies. Just because a dogmatic definition has not been defined does not mean it was not held from the beginning. In the first few centuries the definitions were around God and Christ. Later other truth were dogmatically defined. By 1854 the Magisterium of the Church decided the time had come the dogmatically define this truth.

 

[Mungo]

How could she need a savior if she was sinless? Romans 6:23

She was saved from the effects of original sin. That is why she needed a saviour; not because she personally sinned.

 

[theefaith]

Mungo, there is nothing clear about what you have said thus far. You say Mary did no sin but not once have you explained how?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, even Christ was cursed on the cross but somehow you believe Mary was preserved, to mean it was not possible for her to sin.

Explain the mechanics of how!

Lk 1:37

All have sinned refers to original sin.
And is a generalization and not absolute, does not include Jesus, Mary, children, mental ill or those without the use of reason and free will!

Both Matthew and Luke leave no room for doubt on that (Mt 1:18; Lk 1:34–35, 3:23). That virginal motherhood is the guarantor of both Jesus’ divinity and Jesus’ humanity. It safeguards the truth that he was both fully God and fully man!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[theefaith]

Proving Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

 

[theefaith]

There is nothing here.

you asked!

it has the authority of Christ and is bound on earth so it’s bound in heaven matt 16:18-19 matt 18:18

 

[theefaith]

Okay to see Jesus is to see salvation...nothing of Mary here.

Jesus Is our salvation
Mary is His mother
Mary is the mother of our salvation!

Jesus is God
Mary is His mother Mary is the mother of God! (Not mother of the divine nature)

 

[face2face]

She was saved from the effects of original sin. That is why she needed a saviour; not because she personally sinned.

What are the effects of original sin and show us in the Scripture this idea?