What is Predetermined?

[Hidden In Him]

you are terribly deceived. What denomination are you??

Non-denominational.

not meant to be provocative, but it is meant to straighten him out. Bad theology needs be called out, otherwise he’ll never know where he needs to be corrected.

I don't "straighten out" without scripture. So just so you know, telling me I'm "terribly deceived" isn't gonna make much of an impression I'm afraid.

But I have a thread you might like discussing things with me on. Tell me what your answers would be to the questions in the OP.
The Parable Of The Wedding Banquet

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

You really shouldn't say that Lifelong_sinner. That's just terribly provocative, and not winsome at all. To me, at least, there's no grace in that kind of "response."

Grace and peace to you.

It's normal. No sense hoping to get rid of it, or even addressing it really, unless it's just SO rude that it needs to be put to a stop completely. Discussing things politely is more of a rarity than the norm, I'm afraid.

 

[PinSeeker]

But you make it sound now as if God was not aware they would sin, which would conflict with His Omniscience. Do you believe He knew we would sin or no?

Nothing takes the LORD by surprise.

PinSeeker said: some things, Hidden In Him, we have to say that about, because we are not given the answer​

Never a premise I can accept, I'm afraid.

I mean, Hidden In Him, you can accept or not accept what you want, of course, but actually, God is merciful not to tell us everything. Some things are not for us to know, as Jesus Himself says, and some knowledge is too heavy for us. We are not given ALL the answers, but we are given ALL THAT WE NEED. God could have said more to us than what is in His Word, but, as the hymnist writes (in one of my favorites):

"What more can he say than to you he has said, to you who for refuge to Jesus have fled?"
(How Firm a Foundation, surely one of my favorites)​

We are given the mind of Christ, and if Christ is not given answers on such matters then this goes against Christ's Omniscience as well. Now some don't mind this one as much because they don't consider Him Divine. But for those who do, it would be a problem.

Ah... Having the mind of Christ means that we understand God's plan in the world to bring glory to himself, restore creation to its original splendor, and provide salvation for sinful mankind. Having the mind of Christ means that we agree with what Christ Himself says in Luke 19:10, “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.” And Paul exhorts us in Philippians 2:5 to "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus..." By 'this mind,' he is referring to what he has just said, in Philippians 2:2-4, which is to "be of the same mind, have the same love, be in full accord and of one mind..." by "doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility counting others more significant than yourselves..." and not "looking to our own interests" only, "...but also to the interests of others." Because this is exactly what Jesus did, as he goes on to explain in verses 5 through 9.

Yeah, there are circumstances where I will step in and get downright dogmatic and protective of people on things, but when it comes to just debating over doctrine with others, I've relaxed tremendously over the last 6 months especially.

Good. I'm with ya.

I realized, especially in debating the Divinity of Christ, that sometimes doctrinal positions can be exceedingly difficult to prove in light of the original languages, and that in the end it often comes down to those who have ears to hear wisdom and those who don't.

Well, as Paul says, these things are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:13-14), that "...we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So I no longer get too uptight about trying to "prove" my arguments to people. Unless it's something that is putting others, or a Christian community, in spiritual danger, I'm kinda like, "Yeah, here's my deal. Take it or leave it," LoL.

Good. Agree.

And sharing differences of opinion on doctrine with others politely is a rather pleasant way to go through the day, IMO. Beats clanging one another over the head with clubs when the matter can't be proven beyond doubt either way anyway.

Yes. Agree.

We might be on stalemate with this one, but I've enjoying sharing some thoughts back and forth as well.

Sure. Me, too.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: You really shouldn't say that Lifelong_sinner. That's just terribly provocative, and not winsome at all. To me, at least, there's no grace in that kind of "response."
​

It's normal. No sense hoping to get rid of it, or even addressing it really, unless it's just SO rude that it needs to be put to a stop completely.

The Holy Spirit can get rid of it... With God, all things are possible. Even overcoming sin (not totally in this life, but... you know what I mean).

Discussing things politely is more of a rarity than the norm, I'm afraid.

Yes, that's unfortunate.

Grace and peace!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Ah... Having the mind of Christ means that we understand God's plan in the world to bring glory to himself, restore creation to its original splendor, and provide salvation for sinful mankind. Having the mind of Christ means that we agree with what Christ Himself says in Luke 19:10, “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.” And Paul exhorts us in Philippians 2:5 to "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus..." By 'this mind,' he is referring to what he has just said, in Philippians 2:2-4, which is to "be of the same mind, have the same love, be in full accord and of one mind..." by "doing nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility counting others more significant than yourselves..." and not "looking to our own interests" only, "...but also to the interests of others." Because this is exactly what Jesus did, as he goes on to explain in verses 5 through 9.

I think it potentially means even more than that, but I liked your scripture references.

 

[PinSeeker]

not meant to be provocative...

Right, unintended, I get it.

...but it is meant to straighten him out.

Yeah, that's... not your job. Or mine.

Bad theology needs be called out, otherwise he’ll never know where he needs to be corrected.

Okay, but I think God prefers that we don't go around with our "bazooka of knowledge" and ~ figuratively speaking ~ blow people's heads off.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

Sin is birthed in the mind. Even if it never leaves the mind, it still exists.

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

By your other posts, you are plainly not one of the confirmed hypocrites of OSAS. However, you have learned things taught in Christianity today that leads to OSAS hypocrisy, foremost of all mixing blameless living with sinless perfection:

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

It is incorrect to mix righteous and blameless living in this life by the power of God, with sinless perfection in the next life by the resurrection of the dead.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, nice cherry picking but those verses don't say everything is predetermined.
If you believe your sin is predetermined, you would rightly rejoice in sinning because it would be God's will.
That's nonsense.

Sin is birthed in the mind.

Our bodies are born into sinful flesh, but sin is born in the soul, when the soul sins in the flesh: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Christ came to redeem all souls that have sinned, which is all mankind born of the flesh: If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them. (2 Chron 6)

Even if sin it never leaves the mind, it still exists.

Sin is not committed by sin 'leaving' the mind, but is committed by lust from the heart:

And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What 'leaves' the mind of the sanctified saint is sin itself.

To live righteously and unblameably, lust must be cut out and purged from the heart, and then with the mind of Christ cast down all thought for sin, and keep it shut outside lying at the door, trying to get back into the heart through the mind to become lust burning in the heart once again.

The only sin and lust that remains in the overcoming saint, is in the vile corrupted body, not in the heart, mind, and soul.

 

[robert derrick]

Sin is birthed in the mind. Even if it never leaves the mind, it still exists. Why do you think Peter is encouraging people to grow in Christ? Because they aren't yet blameless. Peter was quite aware that our perfect deeds don't bring salvation. In fact, he goes on to say:
"Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace—spotless and blameless in His sight. 15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him."

Why is he bringing up Paul's writings? Perhaps because he knew that Paul wrote much about salvation being of faith and not of works. What brings salvation according to Peter? Not being perfect but God's patience brings salvation. Why would God have to be patient unless his people were not yet blameless in every way?
In fact, why do we have to make every effort to be found at peace if we are already completely holy? No one is perfectly righteous. That's why we need Christ's righteousness applied to our account.
I assume you are referring to 1 John 2 with the righteousness quote?

28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (1 Jn 2.28-29)

Practices’. The Gk. ποιέω is transliterated poieō. The term denotes a customary, habitual and ongoing activity. Constant development. Compare with Jn 8.34 where John is speaking about a practice of sin, not a one-off act.

Whoever practices righteousness has been born of God.

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

Why do you think Peter is encouraging people to grow in Christ? Because they aren't yet blameless.

Yet blameless is true, and so we are commanded to grow and not remain in babyhood of sinning and repenting (Heb 4), but to go ahead and repent of dead works (Heb 5), and go on to the perfecting of the saints with blameless, righteous, and holy living in this life.

Leaving behind the first principle of repenting from dead works, is not 'skipping over it' when we don't do it, which is unlawfully trying to run the race and win the prize of Christ at the end by cheating.

Sinning Christians cheat God of His repentance, after having recieved His faith for salvation.

Peter was quite aware that our perfect deeds don't bring salvation.

Once again, your argument is undercut by mixing the eternal salvation of blameless living, with being saved by blameless living.

Perhaps because he knew that Paul wrote much about salvation being of faith and not of works.

Being saved is by faith, and so Paul preaches against being saved by works without faith in Christ, which does not please God at all.

And James preaches against being saved by faith alone, which is dead, which is not the salvation of God at all.

We are being justified by works of faith, without which there is no being saved by faith.

So long as Christians deny the faith of being justified by works, in order to falsely believe in being saved by faith alone, they likely will never obtain eternal salvation by righteous, holy, and blameless obedience to Jesus in this world.

Some Christians use being saved by faith alone, as justification for not repenting of all their sins and going on still in their unrepented sins and trespasses unto death, for which there is no forgiveness of such sins:

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1. Sins are not 'just sins', but are each of the devil and are unrighteousness, ungodliness, and disobedient trespasseses against God, none of which are justified by God nor uncondemned by His righteous judgment.

2. Any person on earth, who continues in unrepented sins of unrighteousness unto death, are not forgiven nor saved nor justified with God, no matter what faith they claim in the heart and mind: God is not a respecter of persons. Christians naming the name of Christ are the ones God expects to obey His commandment of today for all men everywhere to repent:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained.

God will judge every soul with His righteous judgement against all sins, whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, Satanist, Jew....

 

[robert derrick]

Sin is birthed in the mind. Even if it never leaves the mind, it still exists. Why do you think Peter is encouraging people to grow in Christ? Because they aren't yet blameless. Peter was quite aware that our perfect deeds don't bring salvation. In fact, he goes on to say:
"Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace—spotless and blameless in His sight. 15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him."

Why is he bringing up Paul's writings? Perhaps because he knew that Paul wrote much about salvation being of faith and not of works. What brings salvation according to Peter? Not being perfect but God's patience brings salvation. Why would God have to be patient unless his people were not yet blameless in every way?
In fact, why do we have to make every effort to be found at peace if we are already completely holy? No one is perfectly righteous. That's why we need Christ's righteousness applied to our account.
I assume you are referring to 1 John 2 with the righteousness quote?

28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (1 Jn 2.28-29)

Practices’. The Gk. ποιέω is transliterated poieō. The term denotes a customary, habitual and ongoing activity. Constant development. Compare with Jn 8.34 where John is speaking about a practice of sin, not a one-off act.

Whoever practices righteousness has been born of God.

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

Why would God have to be patient unless his people were not yet blameless in every way?

1. God does not 'have to' be patient with any transgressor. He is longsuffering on behalf of His Son who intercedes with the Father on behalf of souls.

2. He is longsuffering only for the purpose of giving space to repent in this life, not in the next:

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Those who believe in faith alone saves and rejects being justified by works of faith, and so continue on openly in their unrighteous works of the devil, are them that despise His longsuffering and His Spirit of grace, and judge blood of the Lamb as an unholy thing that does not wash away all sins of the soul, but only covers them to avoid righteous judgment of God.

Vessels of wrath are all souls on earth continuing in their sins, no matter what faith and name is claimed. God would have all vessels of wrath to repent and believe Him, that He may have mercy upon them as vessels of mercy.

Vessels of wrath are not predetermined souls fit for destruction, only to be made by God to be destroyed by God, nor are vessels of mercy predetermined souls guaranteed for eternal life, only to be made by God with no free will to choose otherwise.

Furthermore, God is even less patient with His own people, who have not repented and continue to behave as vessels of wrath in the world, than He is with them of the world that do not hypocritically claim Him at all.

Not only does God judge His people for their sins and trespasses, but He begins His righteous judgment with His people:

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Saints having grown to live blamelessly in this life are the Christians that will scarcely be saved at His appearing, but no sinners living with blame of unrighteousness and ungodliness in this life will appear with Him in glorified spiritual bodies, including Christians naming the name of Christ and not departing from their iniquities:

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Double minded communion with doing good and evil, doing unrighteousness and righteousness, is not the natural state of Christian saints, but is taught as 'acceptable to God' by them who refuse to come out from among the sinners of the world, and even take 'humble' pride in claiming to be just as depraved as they.

In fact, why do we have to make every effort to be found at peace if we are already completely holy?

This is a completely self-defeating argument of self-justification for not being holy and living blamelessly in this life.

We are commanded to be found living blamelessly at His appearing, that we may be found in peace with boldness in His day of judgment, and not be founded naked and condemned with them that have made peace with the devil by being overcome of their sins for life.

Those who name His name and do not depart from iniquity, to continue in their sins of the devil unto the end, are them that will be found naked and ashamed by His coming as that of a thief in the night.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Unconditionally saved sinners refusing His justification by works of faith, and declaring no judgment for their open sins without shame, are the evil servants, thinking themselves predetermined to eternal life before the world ever began, and so have no need to repent and live blamelessly in this life.

To them, He will come as a thief in the night to rob them of their strong delusion. Only for them who faithfully obey Him unto the end, will be without shame at His appearing, to be resurrected in likeness of His glorious body.

 

[robert derrick]

Sin is birthed in the mind. Even if it never leaves the mind, it still exists.

Whoever practices righteousness has been born of God.

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

No one is perfectly righteous.

And this is an openly false statement, trying to mesh 'perfectly righteous' with 'perfectly sinless'. Perfectly righteous is the commandment to be righteous, even as He is righteous: to be wholly living by His faith with all the heart:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

This is Scriptural definition of living perfectly righteous: And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

It is living perfectly righteously, because of a heart made perfect by the power of God: I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

We are to be righteous even as He is righteous, and He is perfectly righteous altogether.

Scripture does not play semantics of 'perfectly' righteous, because God is not speaking to children playing word games, but to adults who know what He says and know He means exactly what He says.

That's why we need Christ's righteousness applied to our account.

His righteousness is not 'applied' over any 'account' of sins, even as His blood does not only 'cover' and 'hide' any soul's ongoing sins.

Your statement is the learned stuff of unconditional salvation. No Scripture speaks of Jesus' righteousness and blood as being 'applied' to anything, much less over a soul's sinful 'account'. That is garbled baby-talk used by some to justify being perpetually double minded, and so soothe and sear their conscience unto the end.

The only thing 'applied' in Christianity of Scripture is Christians applying their hearts to God, His knowledge, and His righteousness.

Whoever practices righteousness has been born of God.

And so, I see now why Christians like to use the word 'practise' so much, rather than 'do': it's a luring cover for partial Christianity communing with partial sins of the world.

Christian saints living blamelessly in this life are doing the righteousness of Christ, not 'practicing' at it, and failing at it time and again in ongoing unrighteousness and trespasses against God.

Them that obey Him shall obtain His eternal salvation, not them that 'practise at' obeying Him from time to time and so also practise at disobeying Him from time to time.

Practicing Christians are them doing His righteousness. Them doing both righteousness and unrighteousness are just practising at it, but never doing it. They are practising at repenting, while never having repented.

The regular practice of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.

The continued doing of His righteousness, even as He is righteous, is the commandment of God to His people, and sinless perfection will then be obtained in the resurrection by all such who do so and obey Him in all things.

Double minded Christians are only 'practising at it', and they are commanded like all sinners everywhere to repent and to purify their hearts and cleanse their hands from their ongoing sins and trespasses:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1. While it is true, that there is difference between committing a sin and committing to sin unto the end, it becomes a slippery slope to justify sin: to not see our sins so devilish as that of unbelievers.

2. The difference between the Christian saint and Christian hypocrite is twofold:

The saint knows he or she can still sin and disobey God, but only if he or she does not endure temptation and falls in defeat of the devil.

The hypocrite believes he or she will sin, so that it is only matter of when, not if. Also, they do not see their sins as evil as that of the world and of the devil, because they like to think their own sins are not seen by God in the same righteous light of judgment: They accuse God of having respect toward their persons with sins, and no respect towards other persons with sins.

The Christian saint takes Scripture seriously, and so with the mind of Christ sees all things in the light of Scriptural truth, but not the hypocrite who speaks things that sound great to themselves, yet are blasphemy against the Word of God:

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.

When teaching doctrine of Christ, we must use only the words of Scripture to do so, and cut off all the other words, expressions, and ideas of the carnal minded.

 

[Renniks]

To live righteously and unblameably, lust must be cut out and purged from the heart, and then with the mind of Christ cast down all thought for sin, and keep it shut outside lying at the door, trying to get back into the heart through the mind to become lust burning in the heart once again.

The only sin and lust that remains in the overcoming saint, is in the vile corrupted body, not in the heart, mind, and soul.

So you have overcome every possible lust? I think you are splitting hairs. The mind is part of the body.

 

[Renniks]

Why do you think Peter is encouraging people to grow in Christ? Because they aren't yet blameless.

Yet blameless is true, and so we are commanded to grow and not remain in babyhood of sinning and repenting (Heb 4), but to go ahead and repent of dead works (Heb 5), and go on to the perfecting of the saints with blameless, righteous, and holy living in this life.

Leaving behind the first principle of repenting from dead works, is not 'skipping over it' when we don't do it, which is unlawfully trying to run the race and win the prize of Christ at the end by cheating.

Sinning Christians cheat God of His repentance, after having recieved His faith for salvation.

Peter was quite aware that our perfect deeds don't bring salvation.

Once again, your argument is undercut by mixing the eternal salvation of blameless living, with being saved by blameless living.

Perhaps because he knew that Paul wrote much about salvation being of faith and not of works.

Being saved is by faith, and so Paul preaches against being saved by works without faith in Christ, which does not please God at all.

And James preaches against being saved by faith alone, which is dead, which is not the salvation of God at all.

We are being justified by works of faith, without which there is no being saved by faith.

So long as Christians deny the faith of being justified by works, in order to falsely believe in being saved by faith alone, they likely will never obtain eternal salvation by righteous, holy, and blameless obedience to Jesus in this world.

Some Christians use being saved by faith alone, as justification for not repenting of all their sins and going on still in their unrepented sins and trespasses unto death, for which there is no forgiveness of such sins:

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1. Sins are not 'just sins', but are each of the devil and are unrighteousness, ungodliness, and disobedient trespasseses against God, none of which are justified by God nor uncondemned by His righteous judgment.

2. Any person on earth, who continues in unrepented sins of unrighteousness unto death, are not forgiven nor saved nor justified with God, no matter what faith they claim in the heart and mind: God is not a respecter of persons. Christians naming the name of Christ are the ones God expects to obey His commandment of today for all men everywhere to repent:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained.

God will judge every soul with His righteous judgement against all sins, whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, Satanist, Jew....

Your argument is very confusing. No one is sinless except God. That much I know.

 

[Renniks]

Unconditionally saved sinners refusing His justification by works of faith, and declaring no judgment for their open sins without shame, are the evil servants, thinking themselves predetermined to eternal life before the world ever began, and so have no need to repent and live blamelessly in this life.

Hmm.... I don't recall saying anything about open sinning and no shame. And of course I don't believe in predeterminism. By all means repent of whatever sins you are aware of, but don't go around believing you have reached some state of sinlessness in this life. That only brings pride, which all sin springs from.

 

[robert derrick]

So you have overcome every possible lust? I think you are splitting hairs. The mind is part of the body.

Lust is not overcome, it is cut out by the power of the Spirit.

When the heart is purified of lust, then all sin is overcome.

 

[farouk]

Wrong according to whom?
Proverbs 16:4

@Reformedguy Scripture is full of the sovereignty of God...

 

[robert derrick]

Your argument is very confusing. No one is sinless except God. That much I know.

It is not confusing to you. It is simply different from some false teaching you have recieved.

Your confusion is that you cannot refute it, but still don't want to accept it.

And no one is righteous and pure as He is righteous and pure in this life, except the elect people of God.

 

[farouk]

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

@1stCenturyLady Such a searching Psalm, No. 139....

 

[robert derrick]

Hmm.... I don't recall saying anything about open sinning and no shame. And of course I don't believe in predeterminism. By all means repent of whatever sins you are aware of, but don't go around believing you have reached some state of sinlessness in this life. That only brings pride, which all sin springs from.

I don't recall saying anything about open sinning and no shame. And of course I don't believe in predeterminism.

I know, which is why I said so from the beginning.

I have shown how your mind has been wrongly affected by the erroneous teachings of modern OSAS, even though you have not given yourself to their open hypocrisy.

By all means repent of whatever sins you are aware of, but don't go around believing you have reached some state of sinlessness in this life.

And I don't.

As I said, you are still trying to equate righteous living, even as He is righteous, with the perfection that will be obtained in the resurrection of the sinless spiritual body.

It has been so deeply buried in you to think that way, that you can't even comprehend being corrected away from it.

That only brings pride, which all sin springs from.

Tell that to Paul and Peter:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

And all sin springs from lust, of which pride is also sprung from.

You keep talking carnal minded things, rather than Scripture, because you have been taught carnal minded rationalizations rather than Scripture.

The first recorded sin in Scripture was not pride in Lucifer, but iniquity found in him: the iniquity of thinking to openly disobey Him.

He had no time to be proud about it, because so soon as God saw it in Him, God cast him down like lightening.

 

[robert derrick]

The only thing that is predetermined is what, and the only thing predetermined for who is what will happen to the sinner and the righteous:

The sinner will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, nor have boldness in the day of judgment:

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Not the ungodly sinners, that's for sure. And there is no godly sinner at all.