quietthinker
Well-Known Member
being abused.Your god is vulnerable? Then your god is not the Christian God. What is your god vulnerable to?
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being abused.Your god is vulnerable? Then your god is not the Christian God. What is your god vulnerable to?
Did he really drown them?...hmmmmWhat does that have to do with God of the Bible who drowned all but 8 "making them an example"?
If your god is vulnerable it isn't God of the Bible. You have a different god.Did he really drown them?...hmmmm
The culprit has been clever enough to hide himself....even in the Bible....and make it appear as if God is to blame.
I suggest there is more to the story than surfaces at first glance.
Have you ever read the Bible?Did he really drown them?...hmmmm
The culprit has been clever enough to hide himself....even in the Bible....and make it appear as if God is to blame.
I suggest there is more to the story than surfaces at first glance.
Not if you interpret him through the lens of Jesus.If your god is vulnerable it isn't God of the Bible. You have a different god.
yes, I understand these events are attributed to God, so tell me, how do you reconcile the God you are defending in your posts with a self sacrificing God revealed in Jesus.....one who says, 'I am the same yesterday, today and forever.'...and, 'I do not change'?Have you ever read the Bible?
2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
I believe all that Jesus said. Have you read about "predestined" in the NT?Not if you interpret him through the lens of Jesus.
If you interpret him through any other lens you have joined the rebellion which justifies it.
I don't need to "reconcile" it. I'm a Bible believer.yes, I understand these events are attributed to God, so tell me, how do you reconcile the God you are defending in your posts with a self sacrificing God revealed in Jesus.....one who says, 'I am the same yesterday, today and forever.'...and, 'I do not change'?
hmmmm, I see cognitive dissonance is your bedfellow!I don't need to "reconcile" it. I'm a Bible believer.
You see what you want to see. I believe God of the Bible. He is OMNIPOTENT!hmmmm, I see cognitive dissonance is your bedfellow!
The answer is in the question: What is predetermined, not who.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Omniscience foreknows who, predestination foreknows what, not who.
Foreknowing who is not because of predestinating who.
Foreknowing who is simply the omniscience of God to know who by name, not to predestine who by name.
God foreknows who, and He predestinated whosoever to be conformed to His own image: As with Adam, whom He foreknew and determined by counsel to create him in Their image:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
The great error of Calvin was to falsely declare that the omniscience of God foreknowing who, required the predetermining of who, before knowing who.
Omniscience of God is not the result of predestination of God for who to choose, but is by watching all things come to pass unto the end from the beginning: those whosoever will come to Him and did freely choose to obey Him rather than the devil.
God foreknew in the beginning and so foreknows now, because the Word watches and watched from on high above the heavens, all things to come to pass in creation. And the Word being with God, God foreknew all who would come unto Him before creating the heaven and the earth.
God foreknew because He saw it come to pass before creating man, not because He predetermined who would and who would not come unto Him before the beginning.
God foreknew who by seeing whosever, not by predetermining who would be whosoever.
It is one thing to foreknow all souls, and it is another thing entirely to predestine certain souls above or beneath another, which would be with respect of persons, which God is not.Can't agree ,God knew us personally ,before us becoming flesh .
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"
Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
You can't know someone that's not here
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Paul was selected by God to bare the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, before the Gentiles, the kings, which are those in authority, and the children of Israel. Paul had a three fold mission. Paul therefore taught on three levels, and it is for this reason that any true teacher, gifted in God's Word, will also teach on three levels. These levels mean that wherever one person is in the Word of God, there will be a message in it for them.
As those people grow and mature in the Word, they could listen to that same teacher three times and each time through, they should learn something new each time. They will think that it is a new discovery each time through, for God's Word builds on itself, and what is important to the baby in Christ, seeking the milk of the Word, is different then the mature Christian that seeks more then just salvation and baptism. A gifted teacher teaches on whatever level the listener is at. That is why it is important that you learn from the Word of God, and not the words and traditions of men.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God. Those of the elect know deep inside themselves that they have a destiny and purpose for their lives. Paul knew he had a destiny, only he was confused which way that was. He grabbed out at man's way, instead of seeking God's way. When the time came, God put a stop to Paul's way, and He blinded him.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now
No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect.Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"
Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
You can't know someone that's not here
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Paul was selected by God to bare the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, before the Gentiles, the kings, which are those in authority, and the children of Israel. Paul had a three fold mission. Paul therefore taught on three levels, and it is for this reason that any true teacher, gifted in God's Word, will also teach on three levels. These levels mean that wherever one person is in the Word of God, there will be a message in it for them.
As those people grow and mature in the Word, they could listen to that same teacher three times and each time through, they should learn something new each time. They will think that it is a new discovery each time through, for God's Word builds on itself, and what is important to the baby in Christ, seeking the milk of the Word, is different then the mature Christian that seeks more then just salvation and baptism. A gifted teacher teaches on whatever level the listener is at. That is why it is important that you learn from the Word of God, and not the words and traditions of men.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God. Those of the elect know deep inside themselves that they have a destiny and purpose for their lives. Paul knew he had a destiny, only he was confused which way that was. He grabbed out at man's way, instead of seeking God's way. When the time came, God put a stop to Paul's way, and He blinded him.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
One thing is for sure: them not departing from all iniquity and going on still in their sins and trespasses as sinners and not saints, certainly are not known of the Lord now, and so are not foreknown of Him at all.
Them not to doing what is predestinated, are not them who He foreknows: departing from all iniquity and being confirmed to His image in this life:
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is them who are in deed and in truth conforming to His image, not them remaining conformed to this sinful world, trusting in being 'foredetermined for heaven':
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Them decieved into thinking themselves being predestinated to heaven vs those predestinated to hell, are them not believing they need to obey His righteousness, even as He obeyed the Father, in order to obtain eternal salvation.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
We are to be conformed to his image and so to be righteous as he is righteous in this world, not waiting with unconditionally secured and predetermined salvation for the next, which will be too late, and they will be greatly astonished and ashamed at His appearing:
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
The warning of the Lord is not to the sinners of the world that believe not at all, but is plainly to them that believe they are foreknown and therefore predestined, precalled, prejustified, and prejudged for heaven and not for hell, and so go on still in the sins and trespasses even as all sinners of the world.
Great post.Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
One thing is for sure: them not departing from all iniquity and going on still in their sins and trespasses as sinners and not saints, certainly are not known of the Lord now, and so are not foreknown of Him at all.
Them not to doing what is predestinated, are not them who He foreknows: departing from all iniquity and being confirmed to His image in this life:
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is them who are in deed and in truth conforming to His image, not them remaining conformed to this sinful world, trusting in being 'foredetermined for heaven':
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Them decieved into thinking themselves being predestinated to heaven vs those predestinated to hell, are them not believing they need to obey His righteousness, even as He obeyed the Father, in order to obtain eternal salvation.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
We are to be conformed to his image and so to be righteous as he is righteous in this world, not waiting with unconditionally secured and predetermined salvation for the next, which will be too late, and they will be greatly astonished and ashamed at His appearing:
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
The warning of the Lord is not to the sinners of the world that believe not at all, but is plainly to them that believe they are foreknown and therefore predestined, precalled, prejustified, and prejudged for heaven and not for hell, and so go on still in the sins and trespasses even as all sinners of the world.
All your posts deserve a like, for the knowledge, work, and love for the other person.No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect.
Just as He chose His other apostles after prayer on the mount. He chose Him as an apostle, after he became an elect of God upon believing the Lord to obey Him:
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Saul believed from the heart and was ready to answer the common call of the gospel to be saints. The others with him had opportunity to believe, and did not, and so were not at that time to be chosen elect of God.
God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
True, once again foreknowing by watching all things come to pass, even as they have, are,and shall, is not the objection.
The objection is the false teaching of predestining who, and not what. After all, it is evident by many believing that lie, that they are also the ones not being conformed His righteousness with pure hearts according to predestination, even as they claim to be those prechosen by faith only without works of His righteousness.
The false predestining of 'who' leads directly to the hypocrites who proudly think they were prechosen before they were ever formed in the womb. They are taught to believe themselves predestined chosen elected etc...before the foundation of the world, like little pre-anointed lambs of God.
The only One chosen and anointed Christ before creation was the Word, whose soul He would offer up to be the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, and is now the risen Savior and Lamb slain in the days of His flesh:
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God.
It's called hearing and receiving the faith into the heart and obediently enduring unto the end:
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
God makes all souls equally perfectly the same with free will to believe and obey Him or not in the days of their flesh: We choose whether to be good ground for His Word or not:
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
No soul is preselected and premade to be in the body, bu some in the body are called to minister and edify in one manner or another.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
God foreknows who, by watching who, and so knowing beforehand who, but God does not prechoose and predestine who before making any soul.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now.
Sure, there's been plenty of ages before our souls were made and placed in the womb, and this is our age to believe and obey or not.
The error in doctrine of predestination from God is by the error in the doctrine of omniscience of God:Can't agree ,God knew us personally ,before us becoming flesh .