What is Predetermined?
- Thread starter robert derrick
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Did he really drown them?...hmmmm
The culprit has been clever enough to hide himself....even in the Bible....and make it appear as if God is to blame.
I suggest there is more to the story than surfaces at first glance.
If your god is vulnerable it isn't God of the Bible. You have a different god.
Have you ever read the Bible?
2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Not if you interpret him through the lens of Jesus.
If you interpret him through any other lens you have aligned yourself with the rebellion which justifies it.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
yes, I understand these events are attributed to God, so tell me, how do you reconcile the God you are defending in your posts with a self sacrificing God revealed in Jesus.....one who says, 'I am the same yesterday, today and forever.'...and, 'I do not change'?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"
Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
You can't know someone that's not here
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Paul was selected by God to bare the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, before the Gentiles, the kings, which are those in authority, and the children of Israel. Paul had a three fold mission. Paul therefore taught on three levels, and it is for this reason that any true teacher, gifted in God's Word, will also teach on three levels. These levels mean that wherever one person is in the Word of God, there will be a message in it for them.
As those people grow and mature in the Word, they could listen to that same teacher three times and each time through, they should learn something new each time. They will think that it is a new discovery each time through, for God's Word builds on itself, and what is important to the baby in Christ, seeking the milk of the Word, is different then the mature Christian that seeks more then just salvation and baptism. A gifted teacher teaches on whatever level the listener is at. That is why it is important that you learn from the Word of God, and not the words and traditions of men.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God. Those of the elect know deep inside themselves that they have a destiny and purpose for their lives. Paul knew he had a destiny, only he was confused which way that was. He grabbed out at man's way, instead of seeking God's way. When the time came, God put a stop to Paul's way, and He blinded him.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now
Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
You can't know someone that's not here
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Paul was selected by God to bare the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, before the Gentiles, the kings, which are those in authority, and the children of Israel. Paul had a three fold mission. Paul therefore taught on three levels, and it is for this reason that any true teacher, gifted in God's Word, will also teach on three levels. These levels mean that wherever one person is in the Word of God, there will be a message in it for them.
As those people grow and mature in the Word, they could listen to that same teacher three times and each time through, they should learn something new each time. They will think that it is a new discovery each time through, for God's Word builds on itself, and what is important to the baby in Christ, seeking the milk of the Word, is different then the mature Christian that seeks more then just salvation and baptism. A gifted teacher teaches on whatever level the listener is at. That is why it is important that you learn from the Word of God, and not the words and traditions of men.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God. Those of the elect know deep inside themselves that they have a destiny and purpose for their lives. Paul knew he had a destiny, only he was confused which way that was. He grabbed out at man's way, instead of seeking God's way. When the time came, God put a stop to Paul's way, and He blinded him.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now
It is one thing to foreknow all souls, and it is another thing entirely to predestine certain souls above or beneath another, which would be with respect of persons, which God is not.
Predestinating who, is a lie against Scripture and is accusing God of being an unjust judge with respect of persons.
Knowing how He foreknew is what explains why He foreknew, but only predetermines what.
He predestined what His people would be conformed to: the image of His dear Son in the righteousness and true holiness of God.
He foreknows all things to come to pass by seeing all things from above all heavens even as they have, are, and shall came to pass.
The Word being with God in the beginning, therefore, knows beforehand them that would be the whosoever that believed and obeyed Him from the heart unto the end, to obtain His eternal salvation.
He did not therefore predestine who, but only foreknows who would be transformed to His righteousness by obedience, and be righteous even as He is righteous.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
He did not prechoose who, but rather saw, sees, and shall see them He does chose in this life, even as they believe on Him and obey His word.
The omnipotence of God above all times is to see them that were, are, and are yet to come. The omniscience of the Word is therefore to know in the beginning them He has seen and watched from beginning to end.
God makes all souls the same in the lower parts of the earth to wrap in flesh of the woman's womb, and so all souls have the same choice freely to make in this life: to repent and obey the gospel of the cross, or not.
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Before God covered any soul in the mother's womb, he knew that soul upon making in the lowest parts of the earth.
God knows every soul He makes before wrapping them with flesh in the belly of a woman: not all souls believe and live that by faith in Him.
This is not about God not foreknowing who would and would not believe, which He does, because He has already watched them from beginning to end.
This is about God making souls different from one another with predestined will of God to perish or have life: to believe and obey or not to believe and obey.
Scripture in Psalms 139 was not just speaking of a special soul, such as David, but is revealing to all souls our true beginning in the hands of God:
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine.
"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;" Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
God also saw the hearts of each babe in the womb, and made selection between them in their striving, which he revealed to the mother upon her prayer of request to know the meaning of their wrestling within her.
The Scripture is not declaring a predestinated soul before being made a soul in His hands, but is simply declaring God's right to choose by righteous judgment of the heart, and not by shape nor power of the flesh and mind and will of a man in this life.
He that is Spirit sees all things even as they are, even the hearts of the souls in the womb of a mother, and thus can even sanctify souls from the womb:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
All souls are made the same in the hands of God and are His, until he wraps them in the woman's womb with free will to believe and choose to serve Him or not.
There is a choosing and sanctification within the womb for certain to be prophets and apostles within the kingdom of God, but none of the members of His body are predestined before being formed in the belly of a woman.
No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect.
Just as He chose His other apostles after prayer on the mount. He chose Him as an apostle, after he became an elect of God upon believing the Lord to obey Him:
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Saul believed from the heart and was ready to answer the common call of the gospel to be saints. The others with him had opportunity to believe, and did not, and so were not at that time to be chosen elect of God.
God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
True, once again foreknowing by watching all things come to pass, even as they have, are,and shall, is not the objection.
The objection is the false teaching of predestining who, and not what. After all, it is evident by many believing that lie, that they are also the ones not being conformed His righteousness with pure hearts according to predestination, even as they claim to be those prechosen by faith only without works of His righteousness.
The false predestining of 'who' leads directly to the hypocrites who proudly think they were prechosen before they were ever formed in the womb. They are taught to believe themselves predestined chosen elected etc...before the foundation of the world, like little pre-anointed lambs of God.
The only One chosen and anointed Christ before creation was the Word, whose soul He would offer up to be the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, and is now the risen Savior and Lamb slain in the days of His flesh:
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God.
It's called hearing and receiving the faith into the heart and obediently enduring unto the end:
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
God makes all souls equally perfectly the same with free will to believe and obey Him or not in the days of their flesh: We choose whether to be good ground for His Word or not:
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
No soul is preselected and premade to be in the body, bu some in the body are called to minister and edify in one manner or another.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
God foreknows who, by watching who, and so knowing beforehand who, but God does not prechoose and predestine who before making any soul.
One must understand that there was an age before the one we are in now.
Sure, there's been plenty of ages before our souls were made and placed in the womb, and this is our age to believe and obey or not.
Christian Believer
Member
Hello again @robert derrick,
I like your post, and fully agree. And note, all scripture is true. We just have to look at the rest of the Bible to see clearly. This is what "seek God" in the Sermon on the Mount means! Here is my perspective with more biblical facts and indisputable evidences: Predestination Demystified
@Oceanprayers. You too, please look.
All your posts deserve a like, for the knowledge, work, and love for the other person.
The error in doctrine of predestination from God is by the error in the doctrine of omniscience of God:
How God foreknew explains what He predestined for allo them that do know Him by faith:
God foreknew in the beginning and foreknows all things from beginning to the end: by watching all things come to pass from far above all heavens, so that the Word with God in the beginning knew, even as He watched, watches, and shall watch:
He foreknew who by watching whosoever, and He predestinated what whosoever believes shall do to obtain eternal salvation: to be confirmed unto the righteousness and true holiness image of His dear Son:
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
The mystery of the Godhead hidden from the foundation of the world is that God watched, watches even now, and watches in the end, which the Word with God knew in beginning and knows now.
What God is watching this day in the hearts of all people on earth, is what He foreknew would come to pass.
Because He is watching now, He foreknew in the beginning.
Because God is a perfect watcher, He perfectly forknows.
When He sees His Son formed in any that believe with the heart, He knows it, and so foreknew it.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
He did not forechoose it: God is not a respecter of persons, that He should forechoose and make some souls predestined to wrath and others predestined to glory.
What God is watching this day in the hearts of all people on earth, is what He foreknew would come to pass.
Because He is watching now, He foreknew in the beginning.
Because God is a perfect watcher, He perfectly forknows.
When He sees His Son formed in any that believe with the heart, He knows it, and so foreknew it.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
He did not forechoose it: God is not a respecter of persons, that He should forechoose and make some souls predestined to wrath and others predestined to glory.
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