What is Salvation?

[Soyeong]

Paul opens and closes every letter attributed to him with "grace" to you followed often by "mercy" and/or "peace", always listing grace first. He also says that Jesus gives us more grace and, we grow from grace to grace (more free, bigger and better understanding).

Unlike many Christians teach, why would Paul say this if salvation isn't an ongoing process, as if we no longer need any more grace or understanding ? ? ? Consider how crazy it would be for someone to believe they could read and understand the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in one day. And that is nothing, compared to what Jesus knows and, we have yet to learn.

Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, having more love and becoming more free. It may be fair to define "salvation" as everything God wants to do for us, in us and through us. If we don't want Jesus to save us from our sins, we will never be remotely free, for sin makes us less free, not more free. And, it is a hard and difficult row to hoe to try to care without God's help, "for God is love".

"Moreover, the Lord is the spirit; where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all moreover, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the spirit" II Corinthians 3:17-18(corrected to the Greek).

Verse 18 cannot rationally be interpreted some other way, other than an ongoing process. Over time, the better we will know and understand what is true, the more free we will become and, the more love we will have for both ourselves and other people; "for God is love" 1 John 4:7-8.

God's salvation, found only in Jesus, is a lifetime ongoing process, as indicated by Paul several times, who after many years, did not view himself as having attained. In I Corinthians 1:18 Paul says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." The Greek definitely means "being saved".

And as Paul writes in Philippians 3:12-14: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Messiah Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Messiah Jesus."

Again, Paul writes elsewhere in I Corinthians 8:2: "And if anyone thinks that they know anything, they know nothing yet as they ought to know". Those who teach that salvation is not an ongoing daily process and, who say if we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we no longer need him to forgive us, are in direct contradiction to the New Testament.

According to John 1:8-9, written to people who are already believers in Jesus: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Note that John says if "we" confess "our" sins, including himself personally.

Jesus saving us from our sins is quite clearly a daily, ongoing process. Otherwise, the above quotations from Paul and John quite literally, don't make any sense. The entire idea of God's free salvation is to believe in and know Jesus better and in doing so, become more and more free and have more "love, one for another". As noted earlier, Jesus says if we listen to him, we "will know the truth and the truth will make us free" and if he makes us free, we will be "free, indeed".

Jesus clearly implies an ongoing learning process when he says "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free", which agrees with Paul and I John. Who for example, has shown up for the first day of elementary school and, learned everything they need to know about God and life on the first day?

If the idea is to learn more of what is true so we can be more free, how could anyone claim that salvation isn't an ongoing process? And, if we don't want Jesus to continue to forgive us once we have asked him, who is going to "cleanse us from all sin", like John says in I John 1:7?

Conservative Christianity very wrongly teaches that once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved and, once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven. Hopefully the above few paragraphs puts this twisted teaching down in the Pit permanently where it belongs. Apparently, the truth is, once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward.

But we have much to improve on, experience, understand, go through and grow over time and thus, salvation is also an ongoing lifetime process. Who among us can say "I have achieved", as if we need no more improvement and have nothing left to understand or accomplish?

Indeed, our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed as being doer of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being a doer of the Law of God. We have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Matthew 1:21), we are being saved from continuing to be doers of sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10).

The content of a gift can be getting to experience doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as the result. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done enough of those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically require to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty for our sins but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God. Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

 

[Soyeong]

I think there is something crucial missing in your discussion, namely, that the Bible talks about salvation as a past event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a future, final state (glorification).

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham is listed twice, neither of which is when he was justified when he believed God in Genesis 15:6, so he was justified at least three times, which does not make it purely a past event. Likewise, we have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

Justification is "to be declared righteous;" to have been saved from the penalty and guilt of sin (Gal. 3:24-26; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:5). Sanctification is both a one-time event and ongoing process; it is to be set apart and made holy, to be saved from the power of sin (1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 5:22-24; Eph. 4:24; Col. 1:22-23; 2 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:21-22; Heb. 12:14). Glorification is to be saved from the presence of sin and occurs at the return of Christ (Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:30; Col. 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Being righteous is not just about being saved from the penalty and guilty of sin but is also about being a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7).

What do you mean by "Conservative Christianity"? What other kind(s) of Christianity is(are) there? I don't know of any "conservative Christianity" that teaches "once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven." There is, however, a strong case to be made for once saved, always saved; rightly understood, that is.

What is the difference between "once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved" and "once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward"? I see no essential difference, so what makes one false and the other true?

In Titus 2:14, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if someone is participating in that training, but then rejected the content of their gift of salvation by becoming a doer of what is ungodly and renounce being a doer of what is godly, righteous, and good, then I see no reason to think that they still have the content of their gift of salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus did start a new religion, by reforming and fulfilling the religion of Israel, then going beyond it at the cross, ushering in the administration of grace. He said He would build His church. He gave instructions on how to perform His new religion. He railed against only the religionists who opposed Him.

Jesus was spiritual and holy, never secular or materialistic. He sometimes associated with sinners to bring them into the kingdom of heaven, not to adopt or approve of their lifestyles. Jesus spent time with His disciples and off alone in prayer.

A saint is someone made holy by trusting in Christ AND who does good works springing from their faith AND abstaining from fleshly desires and worldliness.

1 John 2

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jesus did not come to start a new religion but rather he came as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Judaism by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to fulfill the Torah. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith in Jesus who were all zealous for the Torah, which is in accordance with Titus 2:14, where Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so Jews coming to faith in Jesus were not ceasing to practice Judaism but were becoming zealous for it. This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews and that Christianity at its origin was the sect of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. In Acts 24:14, Paul testified that according to The Way, which they call a sect, he continue to worship the God of their Fathers, believing everything laid down by the Torah and written in the Prophets, and the religion of which The Way is a sect is Judaism.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, not a new administration of grace.

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and is first used by the Septuagint to refer to Israel at the first Pentecost, so that is when the Church began, which Jesus rebuilt in accordance with prophecies concerning the restoration of David's fallen tents.

While Jesus did have a problem with some Pharisees, he never criticizing them for following the wrong religion or for being zealous for obeying the Torah, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commandments of God in order to establish their religion. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting the weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was calling them to have a higher level of Torah observance in accordance with Judaism, not promoting a different religion.

 

[Justified]

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham is listed twice, neither of which is when he was justified when he believed God in Genesis 15:6, so he was justified at least three times, which does not make it purely a past event.

Where does Heb. 11 mention that Abraham was justified?

Likewise, we have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

Of course, although the completion of sanctification is glorification.

Being righteous is not just about being saved from the penalty and guilty of sin but is also about being a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7).

This is a discussion about salvation and so I was mentioning "justification," as mainly used by Paul to refer to "being declared righteous."

In Titus 2:14, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if someone is participating in that training, but then rejected the content of their gift of salvation by becoming a doer of what is ungodly and renounce being a doer of what is godly, righteous, and good, then I see no reason to think that they still have the content of their gift of salvation.

Look at a passage you posted above:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Is God going to bring his work to completion or not? He can't if people who are truly saved can then reject his free gift.

 

[Soyeong]

Where does Heb. 11 mention that Abraham was justified?

Hebrews doesn't specifically state that it is justifying faith, though I see no reason to think that highlights of examples of faith is not justifying faith. In James 2:21-24, it says that Abraham was justified by his faith when he offered Isaac, so that confirms that the example in Hebrews 11:17 is justifying faith.

Of course, although the completion of sanctification is glorification.


This is a discussion about salvation and so I was mentioning "justification," as mainly used by Paul to refer to "being declared righteous."


Look at a passage you posted above:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Is God going to bring his work to completion or not? He can't if people who are truly saved can then reject his free gift.

I don't see any reason to think that Philippians 1:6 is inclusive of people who have rejected God's free gift of salvation.