What is the purpose of Grace?

[bdavidc]

@Wrangler

Zec. 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

Ps 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Not that I want to get involved in your discussion...but I found these verses as I was reading this morning. Hope this sheds some light on your discussion.

These verses do not shed light on Wrangler’s false doctrine. They expose the danger of proof-texting.

Psalm 12:6 is not even about God testing people. It says, “The words of the LORD are pure words.” The silver illustration describes the purity of God’s words. Using that to support progressive testing of believers is simply eisegesis.

Zechariah 13:9 speaks of God refining and trying a people through affliction. First Peter 1:7 likewise speaks of “the trial of your faith.” Neither says anything about believers passing one test, receiving a reward, advancing to another test, receiving another reward, and continuing through some progressive system.

And Revelation 3:18 does not teach that either.

Finding verses containing words like “try,” “fire,” and “gold” is not biblical interpretation. Words have contexts. You cannot collect similar vocabulary from unrelated passages and pretend they establish a doctrine the passages never state.

That is proof-texting, and when the conclusion is read back into the verses, it becomes eisegesis.

Wrangler still needs to produce the Scripture that actually teaches his progressive testing system. These verses do not do it.

 

[Episkopos]

You ought to know what I "claim" about myself from our earliest conversation at the very least, but you are unable to resolve what you see as a contradiction....you are blind to it.

Actually you are blind to your own contradictions.

We certainly are to seek to APPREHEND (get hold of) that which HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID UP IN HEAVEN (spiritual realm) for us.

It's like we having to go to a spiritual storehouse where things are laid up. The bible calls this the throne of grace. But those things are not necessarily for us personally. If I go to a store I never think that all the items I see on the shelves are mine...that are there for me. They are potentially there for me....but not necessarily. I have to BUY them with the proper currency. I can't use play money. Likewise you can't think your play/pretend money can buy you anything from heaven.

Why haven't you ever been translated into the kingdom realm? You don't have the proper currency.

Let the Lord so shine His light and show us what we yet lack and where we still fall short. And it takes trust/faith in His love and mercy to do that. Let us press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If I jumped on that, it's only because it is true and you always deny/reject/refuse/negate that side of the coin, ie, you are rejecting and denying THE GOSPEL.

I uphold the gospel on both sides of the double edged sword. You can't see that because you are focused only on the scabbard...or where the sword fits into when not in use.

The love and mercy of God are on the attributes that you put no importance on. And you want to belong to a group based on glory that you are not qualified to be part of. As such, you fully miss the gospel on both levels. You are unable to OBEY the gospel. You live in a no man's land that fulfills neither righteousness nor holiness.

 

[Wrangler]

Stop giving me examples of how life works and produce Scripture that actually teaches your doctrine.

Over a dozen Scripture verses have been provided. Just ignore verse @Laurina made?! Nice.

You don’t have eyes to see. Make a blessed day.

 

[bdavidc]

@ProDeo Is Irenaeus reliable?

Pointing out that Irenaeus should be tested against the surviving evidence is not the same thing as claiming that his testimony about his opponents “cannot be trusted.” That conclusion goes much further than the evidence presented here. And even if Irenaeus got some historical details wrong, that does not make Gnostic teaching true. The Scripture is enough to judge it by. “For ALL things were made by him; and without him was not ANYTHING MADE that was made.” (John 1: 3) “That Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:3). Questioning Irenaeus does not help teach doctrines that go against the Bible.

 

[bdavidc]

@Wrangler
@bdavidc

P.S. (regarding gold being tried)

1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

Rev. 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

These verses prove that God tests and refines His people. I am not disputing that. But that is not what Wrangler has been asked to prove.

First Peter 1:7 speaks of “the trial of your faith” resulting in “praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” It says nothing about passing one test, receiving a reward, advancing to another level, and being tested again.

Revelation 3:18 does not teach that either. Christ is rebuking the spiritually impoverished Laodiceans and telling them to obtain true spiritual riches from Him.

So we need to be careful not to confuse verses containing the words “trial,” “gold,” or “fire” with proof of Wrangler’s doctrine. That is where we have to be careful not to read a doctrine into verses simply because they contain similar words like “trial,” “gold,” or “fire.”

The issue has never been whether believers are tested. Scripture clearly says they are. The issue is whether Scripture teaches Wrangler’s progressive testing and reward system.

These verses still do not.

 

[bdavidc]

Well done @ Laurina! These verses should be addressed by our friend, @bdavidc and I look forward to his thoughtful reply.





These verses support my original statement of more verses than initially used to support the observation.


Refining silver and listing 7 times being refined could reasonably be interpreted as progressive structure IF one was so inclined to see the light. Thanks again!

You just admitted the problem yourself. “Could reasonably be interpreted” and “IF one was so inclined” is not exegesis. That is textbook eisegesis. You begin already “inclined” toward progressive testing and then go hunting for language about fire, gold, and refining that you can force into your theory.

Psalm 12:6 makes this especially obvious. The subject is not believers progressing through tests. It is “the words of the LORD” being pure. Yet you see “seven times” and immediately try to turn it into your progressive structure.

That is not “seeing the light.” That is reading your doctrine into the Bible.

And you are still dodging the actual issue. Nobody said believers are only tested once. The question is whether the parable you appealed to teaches your system of progressive testing and rewards. It does not.

“Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” (Proverbs 30:6).

Your insults about my reading comprehension cannot supply the verse your doctrine is still missing. Stop telling us what Scripture “could” mean if someone is inclined to see it and show where Scripture actually teaches it.

Until you can, this remains eisegesis and false teaching.

 

[Wrangler]

You just admitted the problem yourself. “Could reasonably be interpreted” and “IF one was so inclined” is not exegesis.

Understatement of your position, where you unreasonably disregard repeated testing indicating in Scripture as you are not so inclined.

 

[shepherdsword]

Back to topic "What is the purpose of Grace?"

I believe that grace is the enabling power for us to become sons of God. If we receive him by faith and believe on His name.

No need to complicate it

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Wrangler]

And you are still dodging the actual issue. Nobody said believers are only tested once.

Now you are admitting arguing for arguments’s sake.

The question is whether the parable you appealed to teaches your system of progressive testing and rewards. It does not.

We disagree. The parable teaches progressive testing. Bless your heart @bdavidc. Bless your heart!

Just recently I remodeled steps to a deck. To do this, one must know the rise and the run. Note: the singular nature of these words; rise, not rises; run, not runs. Yet, in application, these singular expressions are repeated for a series or progression of literal steps, plural.

The parable, likewise, explicitly uses singular testing that can certainly be repeated. Let me approach the moral of the parable differently, which is about trust. It is not prudent to test someone once and the invest them with total trust. If someone can be trusted with a little, they can be trusted with more - and this moral can be repeated and should be. Again, Bless your heart @bdavidc.

 

[shepherdsword]

Let us not forget that grace works THROUGH faith

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This clear enough for me.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yes...as in He will grant some to be hid in the Cleft of the Rock. The Rock that was cleft/split that we may find refuge/hide in His side, His flesh torn, the veil torn in twain. There is no salvation/rescue in any other way.

Hmmmm, this is interesting. The wound in his side being the cleft in the rock...or maybe the secret place of the most high?

 

[bdavidc]

Understatement of your position, where you unreasonably disregard repeated testing indicating in Scripture as you are not so inclined.

You are still changing the argument. I am not denying that believers can be tested repeatedly. Scripture clearly teaches that. What you have not proven is your progressive testing system, where one test leads to advancement, reward, another test, more advancement, and so on. Repeated testing does not equal progressive testing.

That is the sleight of hand you keep using. You take a biblical truth, that believers face trials, then attach your own structure to it and act as though the Bible taught the whole package. It does not.

Calling me “not so inclined” only confirms the problem. Biblical interpretation is not about being inclined to see your theory. It is about what the text actually says. You still have not produced a verse that teaches your system. Until you do, you are defending eisegesis, not Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

Now you are admitting arguing for arguments’s sake.


We disagree. The parable teaches progressive testing. Bless your heart @bdavidc. Bless your heart!

Just recently I remodeled steps to a deck. To do this, one must know the rise and the run. Note: the singular nature of these words; rise, not rises; run, not runs. Yet, in application, these singular expressions are repeated for a series or progression of literal steps, plural.

The parable, likewise, explicitly uses singular testing that can certainly be repeated. Let me approach the moral of the parable differently, which is about trust. It is not prudent to test someone once and the invest them with total trust. If someone can be trusted with a little, they can be trusted with more - and this moral can be repeated and should be. Again, Bless your heart @bdavidc.

Your deck analogy is irrelevant to Matthew 25. The text says the faithful servant was faithful with little and was then given greater responsibility: “I will make thee ruler over many things” (Matthew 25:21). It does not say he was tested again so he could keep advancing through some progressive system.

That part is not in the text. You put it there. Repeated testing is biblical. Your progressive testing doctrine is not proven by this parable. And the “bless your heart” routine does not rescue a weak argument. Stop leaning on analogies and show the verse.

 

[Wrangler]

Let us not forget that grace works THROUGH faith

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This clear enough for me.

I love the pivot from the purpose of grace to the purpose of faith. Thank you. Only in the last few years did I grasp the complete understanding between justice, mercy and grace. To summarize:

• Justice is balance, getting what one deserves or what one has earned.
  • For most of my life, this is the only moral system I conceived.
• Mercy* is withholding a negative consequence that one deserves AND must be asked for.
  • Mercy must emerge in the context of justice being done, judgment made.
• Grace is getting a positive consequence that one doesn’t deserve. It is kindness toward one undeserving, which makes it highly humbling.
  • Because grace is a kindness, it doesn’t have to emanate from the dispensation of judgment.

* A big problem in our entitlement society is people expect mercy prior to the uncomfortable pronouncement of judgement, of being declared guilty. This sense of entitlement is so severe, people don’t feel obliged to even ask for mercy. Consequently, it is not mercy these days but licentiousness.

Getting back to the grace-faith relationship, my mind was blown in reading the CEV translation in understanding that faith establishes grace. Many here reject this as it upsets the extreme doctrine of absolutely no work on our part but does explain why universalism is not correct doctrine and why God puts so much importance on us having faith (for God is not a rapist). Thoughts?

 

[Wrangler]

I am not denying that believers can be tested repeatedly. Scripture clearly teaches that.

Then you should give it up.

What you have not proven is your progressive testing system, where one test leads to advancement, reward, another test, more advancement, and so on. Repeated testing does not equal progressive testing.

We disagree. 7 times silver is refined @Laurina pointed out. This is progressive, whether you admit it or not.

And one of the things I love about the Bible is how rich it is in saying the same thing in different ways - including the parable of Matthew 25 that you seem stuck on. The deck analogy is totally relevant, my friend. Totally relevant in understanding language usage.

 

[ProDeo]

@ProDeo Is Irenaeus reliable?

Needed 5 minutes to question the objectivity of the author and looked him up.

This is a quote of the author of the video -

Dr. David Litwa - It took me three years of college to realize that one needed to, frankly, become an atheist. I needed to recognize that much of what I grew up with was a sham: an instance of inauthentic thinking, and very complex measures for self-deception.

As such I don't trust the video.