What is the "SIGN" of the Son of Man - Poll

[Davidpt]

In the Matthew 22 parable about the "King" coming against the murderous servants, (the "King" being God), Christ said that the "King" would send forth "HIS armies" and destroy those murderers, and burn up their city. In other words, the Romans were only acting out the intended purpose which God had designed for Jerusalem and the nation of Israel's destruction. The Pharisees perceived that Christ had spoken this parable against themselves (Matt. 21:45).

And in the process, those besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem literally were hiding in the dens and caves of Jerusalem's underground network of tunnels as the Romans were in the process of taking the city. Josephus records these being hunted down and taken by the Romans, particularly the Zealot leader Simon bar Gioras, who took a band of his loyal soldiers underground in an attempt to dig their way out of Jerusalem to freedom. They ran out of food, however, and Simon had to surrender himself to the Romans by coming out of the ground on the very site of the temple, dressed in garments that showed he thought of himself as the King of the Jews.

There are also hundreds of natural cliffside limestone caves in Galilee in which the Jews hid when the Romans were conquering those northern cities beginning in AD 66. Flattened Roman arrowheads have been found in some of these caves, showing that they knew the caves were occupied by Jewish rebels. Google it.

I don't dispute that the parable you submitted via Matthew 22 pertained to what eventually happened in 70 AD. In the parable though, the King and the Son are not the same person. Just like per the trinity the Father and Son are not the same person. That parable says it was the King's armies, not the Son's armies, that were sent forth. Therefore, one can't apply a coming of Christ in any sense to that of 70 AD. Christ did not send any of His armies, the Father did. The only way around this is to deny the trinity which would then mean the Father and the Son are the same person.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don't dispute that the parable you submitted via Matthew 22 pertained to what eventually happened in 70 AD. In the parable though, the King and the Son are not the same person. Just like per the trinity the Father and Son are not the same person. That parable says it was the King's armies, not the Son's armies, that were sent forth. Therefore, one can't apply a coming of Christ in any sense to that of 70 AD. Christ did not send any of His armies, the Father did. The only way around this is to deny the trinity which would then mean the Father and the Son are the same person.

God was going to commit all judgment to the Son, because He was the Son of Man and was entitled to wage war against His enemies and "stain all His raiment" in the process. This delegating authority to the Son of Man to execute God's judgment is found in John 5:22-24 & 27.

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him....And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man." No Trinity denial going on here at all...

God's armies sent to destroy those murderers and burn up their city was carried out by the authority of Christ wearing that blood-soaked garment in Revelation 19:11-16, stained with His enemies' blood (Isaiah 63:2-3), having trod the "winepress" of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. It was a judgment carried out jointly by both Father and Son.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus in Revelation 14 is given a sickle.

Also, an angel was given a sickle.

Jesus returns to Jerusalem, where He will destroy those armies that have surrounded the city.

In Revelation 14:19-20 the angel who is also given a sickle executes the wrath of God, as it says - "without the city", i.e. not Jerusalem and vicinity. The blood will flow a horse's bridle deep in some places for 1600 furlongs, 200 miles.

So the sickle Jesus is given and the sickle the angel is given - both are for judgement. Jesus destroys the armies in Jerusalem and vicinity. The angels destroys the rest of the armies beyond Jerusalem and vicinity.

“without the city” is where Jesus Christ went to bear the reproach “while we were yet enemies of God”, where He suffered “without The gate”; to sanctify “an unclean” people in His own blood. Paul references going without the gate to bear his reproach. that is where the winepress is. No? Hebrews 13:12-13 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

What is this blood to the horses bridle?? Out from the “wine” press comes blood. So high and so deep! a Hollywood movie blood bath …? Just saying my opinion not that it matters…but they way we tell it comes off as that movie “war of the worlds” where that thing is stabbing people, draining their blood and then spraying it everywhere so everything is bathed, drenched in blood.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Christ bodily returned - He "suddenly came to His temple" - and had that temple torn down to the last stone and burned it up, as Christ had predicted.

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[Wick Stick]

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Context please.

Christ coming to the physical temple TO DESTROY IT is NOT the same thing as Him entering "holy places made with hands" for the purpose of ministering as a priest.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And surely in Luke 21 were the same/similar recorded words as in Matt 24 of Jesus for the same intent and purpose to warn people of his generation, and of our future generation. There is no doubt that most people on earth with perish, as in Jerusalem around 60-70AD, and in our future generation because of their rebellious heart and hatred of God.

I think that Peter's experiences and of others, of your thoughts, has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the larger judgment that awaited not only was the case for the nation(s) in Judea, all nations, when both times the Son of Man comes, in clouds of unrest, war and destruction and of different proportions.

Those saved only are to look up and lift their heads for their impending redemption; for in the same generation as Peter as many were saved in spirit/soul and physical body, and the same of our future generation, into immortal bodies.

Still thinking about so many comments back concerning His return. What it will be like. Sometimes it feels like I’m hearing two gospels. Sometimes it feels like I’m getting two polar opposite perspectives on who God is. Both says theirs is the right one. Oh…and two different takes on end times and whether He comes as a thief or keep your garments so no thief takes them from you.

I think the disconnect is, for me, in reading through the thread is Zephaniah 3:8

Therefore wait you upon me, says the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

…with the Fire of My Jealousy. That is important to me because of the Law of Jealousies in Numbers 5. It takes us through a woman adulteress who is given bitter water to drink and what I hear is …she does not bear seed unto to God. She can’t. For she is unclean and guilty; bearing sin unto death. (Romans speaks to those that know the Law) —-how it has dominion over a man as long as he lives. She shall be called an adulteress… bringing forth death, and unfruitful unto God.

All the language quoted “I will devour all the earth in My Jealousy” —-“a certain fearful looking for of Judgement and Fiery Indignation which shall devour adversities”.—the language we have latched hold of: is prior to Christ …the language, just as the adulteress woman who drinks under the “law of Jealousies” in Numbers —- sounds like the mountain that burned where Moses had to cover his face. Where if any came near …like where they couldn’t enter the holiest of holy or touch the arc in transporting it …I don’t know all those things but have read the same language as below: Hebrews 12:18-21 For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [19] And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: [20] (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: [21] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

“He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.” -

^ that is one voice concerning end times
Yet in Numbers 5, and where I also deal the disconnect in two perspectives on Jesus Christ returning —either the language of the mountain which is described as pitch black — a tempest —-when they heard the voice they …if they touched the mountain, they died. Maybe this mountain here? Jeremiah 51:25-26 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, says the LORD, which destroys all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [26] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

There is another woman (or maybe the same woman, made clean. I don’t know) in Numbers 5 who is made Free (whom the Son makes Free is Free indeed) from the Law of Jealousies. “If the woman be not defiled, but clean; then she shall be free, and conceive seed. In Roman’s “by the body of Christ” you are free to bring forth fruit (seed) unto God. You are not of the bond woman but of the Free Woman, New Jerusalem, which is above and free.

To me that why two perspectives seem to be talked about. Either Christ returns as ‘O destroying mountain which destroys all the earth’, or Christ “restores” “rebuilds” Jeremiah 51:25-26 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, says the LORD, which destroys all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [26] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, says the LORD.

God laid a New Foundation, where Christ is the corner stone. It’s good news! Be you reconciled unto God and made Free from the law of jealousies by the body of Christ …bring forth Fruit unto God. Not sin unto death.

Or that is my opinion…I don’t want to look for the appearance of that mountain spoken of …a tempest, where men were stoned without mercy. I want to look for the appearance of Christ unto salvation.

 

[quietthinker]

The purpose of the sickles are for gathering the harvest to be cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

God's wrath is not what you think it is Douggg.

 

[wooddog]

Those things aren't there. Why cite it?

Rev. 19,19 pray tell where are the nations of the earth gathered?

 

[APAK]

Still thinking about so many comments back concerning His return. What it will be like. Sometimes it feels like I’m hearing two gospels. Sometimes it feels like I’m getting two polar opposite perspectives on who God is. Both says theirs is the right one. Oh…and two different takes on end times and whether He comes as a thief or keep your garments so no thief takes them from you.

I think the disconnect is, for me, in reading through the thread is Zephaniah 3:8

Therefore wait you upon me, says the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

…with the Fire of My Jealousy. That is important to me because of the Law of Jealousies in Numbers 5. It takes us through a woman adulteress who is given bitter water to drink and what I hear is …she does not bear seed unto to God. She can’t. For she is unclean and guilty; bearing sin unto death. (Romans speaks to those that know the Law) —-how it has dominion over a man as long as he lives. She shall be called an adulteress… bringing forth death, and unfruitful unto God.

All the language quoted “I will devour all the earth in My Jealousy” —-“a certain fearful looking for of Judgement and Fiery Indignation which shall devour adversities”.—the language we have latched hold of: is prior to Christ …the language, just as the adulteress woman who drinks under the “law of Jealousies” in Numbers —- sounds like the mountain that burned where Moses had to cover his face. Where if any came near …like where they couldn’t enter the holiest of holy or touch the arc in transporting it …I don’t know all those things but have read the same language as below: Hebrews 12:18-21 For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [19] And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: [20] (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: [21] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

“He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.” -

^ that is one voice concerning end times
And those who Love His appearing … yet in Numbers 5 and where I also deal the disconnect in two perspectives on Jesus Christ returning —either the language of the mountain which is described as pitch black — a tempest —-when they heard the voice they …if they touched it they died. Maybe this mountain here? Jeremiah 51:25-26 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [26] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

yet there is another woman in Numbers 5 who is made free from the Law of Jealousies. “If the woman be not defiled, but clean; then she shall be free, and conceive seed. In Roman’s “by the body of Christ” you are free to bring forth fruit unto God. You are not of the bond woman but of the Free Woman, New Jerusalem which is above and free.

To me that why two perspectives seem to be talked about. Either Christ returns as as Jeremiah 51:25-26 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [26] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

Or God laid a New Foundation, where Christ is the corner stone. It’s good news! Be you reconciled u to God and made free from the law of jealousies by the body of Christ …being forth Fruit unto God. Not sin unto death.

Well Zephaniah 3:8 and in Jeremiah 51 are my take on it, in brief, and on the other hand, a loving blessing for his Body of Christ and the children of God.

I do not believe as most do that there will be a new foundation for a loving reset VIJ. To love fallen mankind again and give them another literal 1000 years to figure it out again. This is not scripture, it comes out of wild imaginations. I'm not a pre-mill enthusiast at all.

Christ is ONLY the cornerstone of the foundation for the righteous and holy of God, built upon further by the apostles and prophets, and then you and I, as its later additions of the house of God.

This is part of the real one gospel...others that teach differently are false.

I hope you don't believe this foundation of the Son of God, is laid down (sacrifice of life for sin) for the rebels and haters of God? And there are many...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Well Zephaniah 3:8 and in Jeremiah 51 are my take on it, in brief, and on the other hand, a loving blessing for his Body of Christ and the children of God.

I do not believe as most do that there will be a new foundation for a loving reset VIJ. To love fallen mankind again and give them another literal 1000 years to figure it out again. This is not scripture, it comes out of wild imaginations. I'm not a pre-mill enthusiast at all.

Christ is ONLY the cornerstone of the foundation for the righteous and holy of God, built upon further by the apostles and prophets, and then you and I, as its later additions of the house of God.

This is part of the real one gospel...others that teach differently are false.

I hope you don't believe this foundation of the Son of God, is laid down (sacrifice of life for sin) for the rebels and haters of God? And there are many...

No…I believe every thing built upon the foundation that is not of Christ will suffer loss. (Be careful how you build upon the foundation, for no other foundation can be laid expect Christ) But that which is loss, is our own image which we groan to put off. (Imo) personally I do think Paul already experienced 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I know I can’t convince anyone, if Paul hadn’t experienced it, he sure did understand the “he shall suffer loss” and also “but he shall be saved; yet so as by fire” —as owning nothing, yet possessing all things. As dying, yet behold we live” …but to me that is the good news. Paul speaks of “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,”
Philippians 3:8

For this (Imo) Philippians 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[wooddog]

That's not what Zechariah 14:4-7 said concerning Christ's return. Christ's return was going to be "one day known to the Lord". It was going to be neither day nor night, (in between day and nighttime), and at evening time it would become light. Christ was going to return just as the sun was going down at the Mount of Olives location. The hill at Megiddo has nothing to do with the location of Christ's return. Neither does scripture say that there was going to be lightning bolts accompanying Christ's return.

And with the earthquake at Christ's return, the crest of the Mount of Olives was going to break apart in all directions, north, south, east and west, according to Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX. The resulting landslide rubble falling downhill would cause the Kidron Valley to be "blocked up as far as Azal", just like it was in the days of King Uzziah.

Hint: In King Uzziah's days, the Mount of Olives did not split in half like a meat cleaver cutting the Mount of Olives in two sections. The rocks breaking apart on that occasion fell downhill and came to block up the Kidron Valley, just like it was going to do again at Christ's second coming return.

How do you explain a sharp sword that comes out of the mouth of the King? Revelation 19;21 Half the mountain moves to the north, half moves to the south so the river of Life flows through. Zechariah 14;8 , Revelation 22;1. It will be a cloud large enough to carry the army of heaven, not inconceivable to cover the whole of Israel.

 

[quietthinker]

How do you explain a sharp sword that comes out of the mouth of the King? Revelation 19;21 Half the mountain moves to the north, half moves to the south so the river of Life flows through. Zechariah 14;8 , Revelation 22;1. It will be a cloud large enough to carry the army of heaven, not inconceivable to cover the whole of Israel.

The language used is metaphor. Swords are held in hands not mouths, therefore a sword in the mouth depiction is saying his words are incisive.

 

[APAK]

No…I believe every thing built upon the foundation that is not of Christ will suffer loss. (Be careful how you build upon the foundation, for no other foundation can be laid expect Christ) But that which is loss, is our own image which we groan to put off. (Imo) personally I do think Paul already experienced 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I know I can’t convince anyone, if Paul hadn’t experienced it, he sure did understand the “he shall suffer loss” and also “but he shall be saved; yet so as by fire” —as owning nothing, yet possessing all things. As dying, yet behold we live” …but to me that is the good news. Paul speaks of “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,”
Philippians 3:8

For this (Imo) Philippians 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Paul's loss is a believers loss only. And any believer's loss is not about their salvation status either And this 'loss' is alien to an unbeliever as they are alien to Christ. Cannot mix this 'loss' and apply it both the believer and the unbeliever, at least as you imply it. So when you said "I believe every thing built upon the foundation that is not of Christ will suffer loss. " This is NOT true in the WAY you are using it! I hope you understand this fine and critical point.

 

[Marty fox]

@Douggg brought up Revelation 6 where you then applied the 6th seal to 70 AD.

The thing is though, pertaining to what occurred in 70 AD, those things involved literal events. To then apply Revelation 6 and the 6th seal to 70 AD would mean the following, for example, is something that literally happened at the time---And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains(Revelation 6:15)

As if this part---the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man---are meaning unbelieiving Jews in the 1st century pertaining to 70 AD. And that they literally did this---hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. Keeping in mind that 70 AD involved literal events. People actually got attacked and many of them were killed. How did they get killed at the time if they were literally hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? And doesn't the text in Revelation 6 indicate they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb? Except they were being attacked by Romans, not Christ.

Let me guess. Per your view, hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains is not meaning in the literal sense. Yet you are applying it to 70 AD, nonetheless, where 70 AD involved literal events.

The point then being, what is recorded in Revelation 6 and the 6th seal can't fit what occured in 70 AD. Only in one's mind can it fit, brought about by doctrinal bias. But in reality it can't fit.

I will answer this in two different post first what do you think Jesus meant when Jesus said to the women?

28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[b]

Jesus said this to the actual women He said ”Daughters of Jerusalem do not weep for me weep for yourselves“

Jesus also said “for the time will come when you will say”

Jesus was talking to them and stated “Daughters of Jerusalem“ thus Jesus was meaning the actual women He was talking too and predicted that it would happen within their life and to Jerusalem and it happened within 40 years.

So I will ask you again when did Jesus mean?

Jesus used the same words as the sixth seal “They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us”

Was Jesus wrong?

 

[Marty fox]

@Douggg brought up Revelation 6 where you then applied the 6th seal to 70 AD.

The thing is though, pertaining to what occurred in 70 AD, those things involved literal events. To then apply Revelation 6 and the 6th seal to 70 AD would mean the following, for example, is something that literally happened at the time---And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains(Revelation 6:15)

As if this part---the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man---are meaning unbelieiving Jews in the 1st century pertaining to 70 AD. And that they literally did this---hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. Keeping in mind that 70 AD involved literal events. People actually got attacked and many of them were killed. How did they get killed at the time if they were literally hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? And doesn't the text in Revelation 6 indicate they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb? Except they were being attacked by Romans, not Christ.

Let me guess. Per your view, hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains is not meaning in the literal sense. Yet you are applying it to 70 AD, nonetheless, where 70 AD involved literal events.

The point then being, what is recorded in Revelation 6 and the 6th seal can't fit what occured in 70 AD. Only in one's mind can it fit, brought about by doctrinal bias. But in reality it can't fit.

Gods Judgement is described many times in the Bible by symbolic descriptions of literal events

Do you not think that the Roman’s destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the wrath of God?

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

 

[quietthinker]

Do you not think that the Roman’s destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the wrath of God?

It was definitely the wrath of the Romans because the Jews had become so odious to them. The Jews had fed and stoked the fires of their own destruction.

 

[Marty fox]

It was definitely the wrath of the Romans because the Jews had become so odious to them. The Jews had fed and stoked the fires of their own destruction.

Yes they did but Jesus stated they it was the wrath of God for not recognizing rejecting and killing their God and messiah

God judged them through the Roman’s

 

[quietthinker]

Yes they did but Jesus stated they it was the wrath of God for not recognizing rejecting and killing their God and messiah

God judged them through the Roman’s

sooo, was it the wrath of the Romans or the wrath of God?
Does God use evil to accomplish his purposes? The Hebrews/ Jews definitely thought so as do many others.....even those who 'believe' in Jesus.

I would ask, is this the picture of God Jesus conveyed to the World? .....if it is, how do we understand, 'love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you so that you may be Sons of your Father in Heaven?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul's loss is a believers loss only. And any believer's loss is not about their salvation status either And this 'loss' is alien to an unbeliever as they are alien to Christ. Cannot mix this 'loss' and apply it both the believer and the unbeliever, at least as you imply it. So when you said "I believe every thing built upon the foundation that is not of Christ will suffer loss. " This is NOT true in the WAY you are using it! I hope you understand this fine and critical point.

will give what you said time to think it over.

 

[ewq1938]

The purpose of the sickles are for gathering the harvest to be cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Not Christ's though. Only the ones reaped by the angel are cast into the winepress.