WHAT Is the Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

"Would He want Himself to be glorified? Doesn't this go against what you're saying?"

How could I know??
You didn't post what I said !
Jesus did not want Himself to be glorified while on earth, but only AFTER the ascension.

Also, as you know, He was afraid that He might be killed before His ministry was completed. Thus, the hiding.

He DID ask the apostles WHO He was.
Peter asnwered, The Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus told him that only the Father could have revealed that to him. (Peter)
Mathew 16:15-17

i don't see how, you would have to explain what you mean there, but nonetheless that was an answer to, specifically, some Greeks (meaning logical thinkers imo) that asked Philip "Sir, we want to see Jesus." And Philip went and told Andrew, and they both "went and told Jesus," which is not just idle chatter either, Greeks who have come to worship asking Philip, and Philip telling Andrew, and both of them telling Jesus has meaning. And His reply was "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified..." and then notice that He immediately makes the same little speech about basically who the Son of Man is.

The HOUR HAS COME FOR THE SON OF MAN TO BE GLORIFIED.
This is what I said in my answer above. HIS TIME had to come.

Please explain why it's important that Phillip told Andrew and Andrew told Jesus...

So, while it is certainly tempting to assume that Christ meant Himself only, we can see the pains that He goes to to "hide Himself" from this definition, meaning possibly that it is true in a sense, sure enough, but that we are led to make an incorrect assumption in our def of "Son of Man" here that is not intended. And while you may of course believe what you like, Jesus was a man. A man with God as His head, but still a man.

Jesus DID hide Himself from the definition. As previously stated, it was not His time yet. As He also said at the wedding at Cana.
John 2:4

And, yes, Jesus was certainly a man while here: the hypostatic union:
100% man
100% God
or Fully _God and Fully man.

But He did speak with authority, as none before Him.
Mathew 7:28-29

And imo God nor Christ speak in puzzles to intentionally deceive; it is just likely that trying to define God or Christ from our pov is a waste of time. The best you can hope for in that scenario is to arrive at a belief that excludes others from your conception of "saved," when they state a belief that varies from yours, and now you are adversaries over something that neither of you can prove

God cannot be known.
Jesus can be known, and through Him we get a very small image of God. We get wha we need to know.

Jesus did not speak in parables to intentionally deceive. IMO He spoke in parables for a few reasons.

1. So that simple people could understand complicated philosophical issues by using everyday objects and Language that they could relate to.

2. So that, by hearing the parable, they might be able to add something of their own understanding to it.

3. So that those hearing would have to make an effort in understanding the things of God. When we wish to enter into the Kingdom, we must also understand that there is a price o pay -- this has to be considered. If it sounds to easy, we will be disappointed in Learning that some WORK IS required and we may be persecuted and frowned upon. All things that must be accepted.

"Only God could be glorified."

yes, making Jesus' statement rather odd, a logical problem, good catch btw, never noticed it. See that the answer was a reply to some "Greeks," who asked one Apostle, and that Apostle went to another Apostle, and only then did the request come to Jesus. Imo this is Jesus' way of saying that Greeks, logical thinkers who supposedly came to worship Jesus, right, would end up glorifying Jesus through the Apostles, and Jesus is not seeking glory, in fact about to go down in apparent ignominy, hung on a tree and cursed; (not even the legal punishment for the charges against Him btw), for which Jesus certainly does not expect any glory, or even praise imo

I agree.

click to expand.

 

[GodsGrace]

"In verse 25 Jesus is again offering eternal life. Who but God could offer eternal life?"

oh, i get you now. Well, to that i would say that God is the head of Christ. I can confidently make you the same offer, here;

While you have the light, believe in the light so that you may become sons of light.

now, am i God?

Oh really bb.
You're more intelligent than this !

John 12:32
If YOU are lifted up, does that make YOU God?

John 11:25
If someone believe in YOU, do they have eternal life?

You can't go by only one verse, the N.T. is a complete thought.

 

[amadeus]

click to expand

I suspect that the baptism of fire may include more than one the various interpretations. The Oneness people believed it was the heat of enthusiasm of a person in the Spirit of God. Of course, they are true "holy rollers" like me LOL.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Verse 26: If anyone serves Jesus, the Father will Honor him. Why would the Father Honor the one who serves Jesus?"

because if/when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.
But don't forget that "Jesus said this, and then went and hid from them"
in connection with that concept

"Many serve today - we're not told that the Father will Honor us because we serve any particular person..."

hmm, not sure why v26 does not apply to you, too

I hope it does.
I'm sorry, I've lost my train of thought...
It IS, after all, a long train...!

 

[amadeus]

No need know Greek. It's theology, the study of God.
Not every single thing about God can be discerned from the bible only.
Sometimes we need someone to put it all together, but it still has to be based on the bible.

The difference between God and LORD and Lord is a difficult one because no bible that I know of has been translated correctly in that regard and each time we see that word would require a small study in itself. Not easy to do. So >I just accept traditional Christianity which states that Jesus is God.

A few years ago I thought that since I had learned two foreign languages that I could learn Hebrew or Greek or even both. It wasn't meant to be. What I was able to do when I was young is not impossible now, but the necessary time I quickly realized took too much away from my Bible reading and studying time. So, I have to go along in some things with what others have decided. However, as I continue to search sometimes God will show me something new [new to me]. As you may have seen quite a few of my ideas are already a bit out from many traditional things.

 

[GodsGrace]

"I don't think Jesus called Himself Son of Man because He was the son of man !!"

ha, listen to yourself now. And understand that i have no dispute here, you might be completely right ok, but note that we do not even have a common definition for "Son of Man," and i don't just mean you and me, i mean Doctors of Theology who cannot agree ok

I hate links. But I'll have to post a couple so you could really understand my POV.
Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly.

Son of Man DOES NOT mean son of man.
Sometimes in the O.T. it DOES mean son of man.
And sometimes it means Son of Man. It IS capitalied for easy understanding.

Why Is Jesus Called “Son of Man”? | Desiring God

What does Son of Man and Son of God mean? - NeverThirsty

 

[amadeus]

Jesus separated it.
Mathew 28 again.
In the name of the Father AND the Holy Spirit.
Could He have meant the spirit of God as it does seem to mean in the O.T.?

I have also learned that the love between Father and Son IS the Holy Spirit.
Not easy stuff!!

Hold on, because here is where I go astray according to many. Put simply the Holy Spirit is effectively the Blood of Jesus which we are to drink which brings the Flesh of Jesus to Life within us. This corresponds to natural blood which makes the connection between all of the parts of a body of flesh which filters our the garbage and brings in new raw material [food] to become living body parts.

 

[GodsGrace]

"You haven't clearly presented any problem, so far."

then let me do so; Trinity doctrine is fine enough on paper, but in practice it becomes a bludgeon to separate Believers who would otherwise have no disputes with each other, and to arbitrarily judge other people who hold contrasting opinions about Christ, not even mentioning that now you gotta deify Jesus' mother too, and Jesus as 100% man just gets harder and harder to find (and thus follow), and one might easily end up spending a morning in basically pointless discussions about who can define God the best

bb

You surely don't need the Trinity to separate Christians.
There's a lot of other doctrine that can separate the Body:
Works
OSAS
Free Will
Hell or no hell
Universalism
Preterism

and who knows how much more. I believe the attempt to understand the Trinity is an honest attempt to "understand" God, as far as we can. He HAS revealed a lot about Himself through Jesus.

Mary does not need to be deified. Every faith accepts that she was a Young virgin until Jesus was born. If some want to believe she remained this way perpetually, I see no problem there as affecting salvation. I don't think doctrine really causes one to lose salvation, I believe loss of faith can - but that's a different thread.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus could not have been created. Even if first. He was Always a part of God as the Word of God.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to understand all this. No resolution necessary.[/QUOTE]
I especially like and agree with your last sentence. No, I really decided on that long ago, but still sometimes the issue comes up and my answers may let people know my position is different that theirs. Some people cannot let it be. They are certain that they can convince that their way is the one and only right one.

The one and only right one, if there is such a one, is God's. Who has it all, but Him? Do we need it? God knows!

And, yes, God created time, so He cannot be PART OF TIME.
He is outside of time. He KNOWS everything that will happen -- this does not mean that He causes it to happen.

I believe your position on time corresponds pretty closely to mine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was clearing out my old "Sent Mail" just now, and came across this ...there was loads of it...but I am just posting a snippet here. It's too long and boring for me.
I do not have a clue who, or where I copied it from!!
But, for what it is worth.
Quote:-

Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council’s decision “was to reduce the meanings of the word ‘God’ from a very large selection of alternatives to one only,” such that “when Western man today says ‘God’ he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else” ( Studies in Christian Antiquity,1985,pp. 243-244).

Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: “It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor’s laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved” (p. 103).

Other beliefs about the nature of God banned
Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: “We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead” (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).

Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: “Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.

*Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly.

. . . . . . .. . . . . ~ End Quote ~ .. . .

BG

Two comments:

One:
I can't find what the new Church policy was regarding the Trinity...maybe I'm just not seeing it.


Two:
There were two councils that dealt with the Trinity.
One was in 325 and one was in 381.

The above post is dealing with the council of 381.
The Council of Constantinople.

It was determined at this council, called by Emporer Theodosiius,
that the Creed of the Council of Nicea in 325, was the correct interpretation of the Trinity.

Your post explains what Theodosius might have WANTED, but it is not what he OBTAINED.

 

[GodsGrace]

well, God does not speak there, but i get you, and i am not denying that one should follow Christ, ok. But i am saying that Greeks who came to supposedly worship Jesus ended up talking to some particular Apostles, who then went to Jesus and got an answer not for the Greeks, but instead in reference to them, and then He went and "hid from them."

Did I say God spoke in Daniel 7?
Sorry.

I was thinking of Psalm 110:1
which Jesus refers to in Mathew 22:41-46

Who was the Lord spoken of in Psalm 110 and Mathew 22?

 

[GodsGrace]

"because a day may come when our hearts are hardened and He will be shut out."

this is, again, the logical conclusion, but i suggest that something else is being inferred here, we have our lives to build an edifice on solid rock, but for whatever reason no building can continue after we die. So i would consider that in relation to that, imo Jesus is not wasting words on people whose hearts are destined to become hardened

Just because God KNOWS the future, doesn't mean He causes it.
Jesus spoke to all as God speaks to all.
Although I've never considered your last sentence, I cannot agree with it.
Thinking...

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, you started this thread. I have read in other threads your hope for serious conversation. I am a hundred percent serious, even if my questions are absurd. I hope you will take me as serious. I look to you guys for correction. So, please, do not hesitate to give scripture that admonishes any wayward notions I have. "I believe" and I will say "I believe" often in this post because I am not calling it revelation but rather, possibly, my error.

You asked about the three: Father, Son, and Spirit which is GOD. I believe it is obvious by His design. If we reduce the Godhead to two: being The Father, The Son, and then The Son as also the Spirit...then there are only Two. Yet, there was two with Christ(the Son) that were always present: The Father and the Spirit.

Christ was born of immaculate seed. I realize this goes against what we are lead to believe: that Mary was immaculate. But Jesus was born of immaculate seed/ from an earthen vessel of flesh (womb of flesh, born into the world as we are). But Jesus also had to be born of an immaculate Womb. From above. There has to be immaculate seed and an immaculate womb. Hence, the Holy Spirit coming to rest on Jesus that began His true ministry. (Immaculate seed and Immaculate Womb) given from above.

The Father, The Son, and The Spirit= The Father, The Son, and The Mother. Think of what God asks of Women throughout His Word. To be in subjection. As comforter. As nurturers. The Helpmeet. The unnamed servant. Alongside her husband.

I know it sounds absurd: The new city that comes from above is Zion (the new Jerusalem/not of this world) often referred to as a she/her. Reference to breast. Nursing. It is my understanding that she(Zion) is the womb. Yes. A city. But a Spiritual City. If you consider this: Jesus said the Kingdom is WITHIN you; meaning that City/kingdom is Within you (the Holy Spirit). He also said that The Father and the Son would come make their abode with the believer: The Father, The Son, and the Spirit= One. I am not really sure when this takes place, now or within the consummation of the deliverance of the New City. I realize it is crazy since the Church is also the Bride that belongs to Christ.

The harlot would be that Spirit against God/ Jezebel/ the city Babylon( an earthly city). The Spirit of darkness that is very evident and working in opposition against God. Yet, used by God to deliver His people from bondage trough much tribulation.

I ask you: If there is The Father and The Son... where or who is the Mother? Does there have to be one? Is it possible to be born withwout Mother and Father? Is it Mary. Or is Mary the earthly Mother? If that is the case, who is the Spiritual Mother/Spiritual Womb that gives birth to children from above?

Job 25:4-6 KJV
[4] How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? [5] Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. [6] How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Exodus 13:2 KJV
[2] Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Did Jesus Christ open the Spiritual Womb? Zion, that Spiritual City from above? Which we, of Christ, are born of? Is she(the Spirit) within us; the Kingdom: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why did Jesus have to leave for the Spirit to come?

Psalm 127:3-5 KJV
[3] Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord : and the fruit of the womb is his reward. [4] As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. [5] Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Fruit of the womb? Whose womb? A woman of flesh? Or fruit from the womb of a spiritual woman/ Spirit? Zion. That Holy Kingdom which is Spirit?


Isaiah 49:14-15 KJV
[14] But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. [15] Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


Luke 1:15-17 KJV
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. [16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. [17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Was John born immediately from both wombs: the physical and Spiritual womb? (I have to add that John was NOT born of the womb but only carried the Holy Spirit as many in the OT was not born yet. They couldn't be because Christ(Jesus) is the FIRST. which makes sense: "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom(Born)of God is greater than he.")

John 3:4-6 KJV
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John 3:7 KJV

[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I am sorry. I realize that is a ton of questions. Maybe too many to answer. But I do feel, it pertains to your OP on "Trinity".

Not too many question ViJ.
I'm going thru--if no one else answers, I will.
Not sure I could do this tonight. It's really late here.
We'll see. Otherwise, my Tomorrow morning.

 

[GodsGrace]

I suspect that the baptism of fire may include more than one the various interpretations. The Oneness people believed it was the heat of enthusiasm of a person in the Spirit of God. Of course, they are true "holy rollers" like me LOL.

Funny.

But, as I'm sure you know, we're not supposed to depend on feelings.
But it is nice to feel the Spirit every now and then, isn't it??

However, I don't see any biblical support for the fire being what people feel.
In Acts they started speaking other tongues. OR other tongues were heard.

 

[GodsGrace]

A few years ago I thought that since I had learned two foreign languages that I could learn Hebrew or Greek or even both. It wasn't meant to be. What I was able to do when I was young is not impossible now, but the necessary time I quickly realized took too much away from my Bible reading and studying time. So, I have to go along in some things with what others have decided. However, as I continue to search sometimes God will show me something new [new to me]. As you may have seen quite a few of my ideas are already a bit out from many traditional things.

You don't know me well enough to know how I dislike going to the Greek.
Not because I don't think it's important for PhD's and theologians because it does help to understand better what is meant.

But because I firmly believe that the translators did the best they could and that the N.T. contains all information necessary for our salvation.

If we really cannot understand something, it must not be too important for the normal folk.

I find that the Greek is used to support beliefs that are not biblcal.
Some attempt to make a Whole verse change meaning by using the Greek.
And most times they'll use Strong's concordance.
I speak 3 languages (and a little bit of a 4th) and I KNOW FOR SURE, that you cannot use a dictionary to speak a lanuguage fluently and as the native speakers do.

So no use going to the Greek.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hold on, because here is where I go astray according to many. Put simply the Holy Spirit is effectively the Blood of Jesus which we are to drink which brings the Flesh of Jesus to Life within us. This corresponds to natural blood which makes the connection between all of the parts of a body of flesh which filters our the garbage and brings in new raw material [food] to become living body parts.

See. Here's what I mean about Personal Revelation...

What you say above is a beautiful image of the Holy Spirit and how He brings life to us:
How He helps us to filter out the garbage and bring in the new and better material.

BUT...

It cannot be biblically supported.
So this is a personal revelation to help YOU understand something, but it must remain a personal revelation.

 

[amadeus]

Funny.

But, as I'm sure you know, we're not supposed to depend on feelings.
But it is nice to feel the Spirit every now and then, isn't it??

However, I don't see any biblical support for the fire being what people feel.
In Acts they started speaking other tongues. OR other tongues were heard.

I still stand with my own earlier explanation of fire although other things may well enter into it.

When I was young in the Lord, I was a dancer and a runner as well as a tongue talker. The running is about gone because I cannot get run and catch my breath, but the dancing still hits me at times in the Spirit. I still love it when it happens. My legs are out of my control. Strange thing is that I have never been a dancer in the carnal.

Tongue talking for me has increased for me to a daily thing. Whenever talk to God seriously [pray], on a daily basis it goes into unknown tongues. As you know I read German and Spanish as well as English and it is certainly none of the those. In the beginning it was "babble" as I was a babe in the Lord which is how it works with baby in the flesh. They don't start out fluently in English or Spanish or whatever. As they mature it becomes a real language. Trouble is that I have witnessed some tongue-talkers who have never matured so their tongue talking language also remains "babble".

The word, "babble" has the same origin as Babel from the tower of Genesis 11 and Babylon from Daniel 1. It means "confusion". In the beginning every one is confused, but when they come to God if they mature the confusion takes on more definite meaning. Our God is not the author of confusion. We must mature.

People are confused because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve and without God's help they will always be confused in the Way of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

I suspect that the baptism of fire may include more than one the various interpretations. The Oneness people believed it was the heat of enthusiasm of a person in the Spirit of God. Of course, they are true "holy rollers" like me LOL.

ya, they wish lol. haven't found your take on it yet but i'm guessing we prolly agree

 

[bbyrd009]

So the baptism of fire may then be the trials we must go through to clean us up and move us closer to God. The trials of Job, which led him closer to God could certainly be understood as a baptism of fire.

ya, you gotta be able to do it under stress

that is the baptism of fire.

 

[amadeus]

See. Here's what I mean about Personal Revelation...

What you say above is a beautiful image of the Holy Spirit and how He brings life to us:
How He helps us to filter out the garbage and bring in the new and better material.

BUT...

It cannot be biblically supported.
So this is a personal revelation to help YOU understand something, but it must remain a personal revelation.

Oh, I wouldn't say it cannot be supported by scripture. I am certain that I have previously and probably could again support it with scripture, but this alone would not make it right to anyone but me... if it were right to me. Personal revelations can be from God and therefore correct. But...

Some people find in support in scripture for some very unusual beliefs that contradict other beliefs also based on scripture. This is likely one reason there are 40,000 some Christian denominations.

The Holy Spirit, I believe, is the key to encounter God's truth which is Jesus. Any believer in a measure has truth, but the radical and sometimes seemingly impossible differences occur because people do not have all the truth and they mix some of their own man made misconceptions and/or conclusions. Of course, since they speak in unknown tongues [or LOL they don't], their conclusions most certainly are the correct ones while those other guys are deluded and false. It does go back to what Solomon wrote centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov 16:25

And...

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

The key to always being right is to always be His sheep and then listen to all that He has to say and obey when He tells to do something.

How many people say they are His sheep when they are really goats?