WHAT Is the Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

not being offenses, who told you to believe the creed, God or man?

and yes, we all are Catholic, just not Roman.

Well, here's how I see it.

To be called a Christian means we believe in Jesus.
If I believe in Jesus I have to believe everything about Him.

Was He God or not?
Was there a resurrection?

If the answers to those two questions are NO, we are all lost.
1 Corinthians 15:1-19
1 Corinthians 15:13-19
1 Corinthians 15:17
1 John 1:1-5

 

[GodsGrace]

GINOLJC, to all. I believe that there is one GOD, and I believe we all agree on this. but the sticking point in our beliefs is the Number of "person", or "Persons" in the Godhead. and as Christians we must not be divided. our brother Amos said, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3). the apostle, to the gentiles, our brother Paul said this, 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment". this is my Goal. I have enjoyed the discussion thus for. but like our apostle said, we have been on milk now it's time for meat, strong meat, so that we may grown in the Lord, Amen.

all of you have been beautifully great, asking the right question, examining unknown question, and seeking truth, this is great, because it all have been done in the Spirit of the Lord, and I thank you for that. now it's time to get down to business.

Let's put this immortality and Eternal question to rest, once and for all. to do this we must use scripture. I propose this, since some think that you have to have a body to be immortal, and I guess eternal is to be without one, lets see if this is true. the premise is that the Lord Jesus being a separate PERSON is the ONLY ONE with IMMORTALITY. well if I say that the one whom most calls the Father and the Holy Spirit have the same Body then they also must be IMMORTAL as well right. and if I can prove that the PERSON(S) in the trinity is only one, then it fails, because the Lord Jesus as the scriptures states that he is a single person, the only one who have immortality. and if single, the other two father and holy spirit must have bodies also. to easily answer this question, Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". but remember our Lord JESUS is a separate person according to the trinity. so, should this apply to the Father, and the Holy Ghost? as also separate person?. let's see. if I can prove that the Lord Jesus is the Father in flesh then the one whom you calls Father must be IMMORTAL also, because Jesus is the ONLY ONE who have IMMORTALITY right.

Evidence #1. the Lord Jesus is the Father. there is ONLY ONE saviour right. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". here the LORD all caps say that he is the saviour. but I thought the Lord, all lower case except for the "L" is the saviour. remember this, Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord". here, saviour is G4990 σωτήρ soter (sō-teer') n. it means,
1. a savior (i.e. a rescuer).
2. (of a journey) a protector and defender (i.e. one who keeps another safe).
3. (generally) God as Savior and Protector/Defender.
4. (specifically) Jesus (Yeshua), the Anointed-One, Christ, Messiah.
[from G4982]
KJV: saviour

in Isaiah 43:11 saviour is H3467 יָשַׁע yasha` (yaw-shah') v. it means,
1. (properly) to be open, wide or free from captivity.
2. (by implication) to be safe.
3. (causatively) to rescue or succor.
[a primitive root]
KJV: X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victory.

Look at all the blue that match up. so we clearly see that the LORD (whom many calls father) is the son, Lord in flesh. and with that, the LORD whom you calls Father is the Lord whom you calls son is the SAME ONE PERSON. and knowing that then the Father have the same body and is IMMORTAL. well now you have a problem with the trinity doctrine, because your doctrine say the Father is not the Son and vice versa. but the BIBLE say different. let's discuss this for today. I have many more scripture to get to on this premise. but in the meantime examine these scriptures.

101
You see. You want us to walk together, and well we should. It's what Jesus preached.

But it is YOU who are now dividing believers.
The Nicene Creed was accepted by all Christians even AFTER the reformation.

It's only in recent times that we're returning to the heresy of arianism.
It IS a heresy.

To say that Jesus is not a person of the HolyTrinity, or declare that the Holy Trinity does not exist, IS heresy.

I can hardly understand what you're saying above. Sorry.
What separates YOU from the JW?

 

[101G]

If you ask anyone who God is, they'll think of God Father, God Almighty.
We cannot really say that God is a person. God is spirit. He is omnipresent.
A person cannot be omnipresent.

GG, remember this is a created world by him. and he is everywhere, scripture, Jeremiah 23:23 & 24 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD".
see GG, we live in HIM, scripture, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring". see GG For in him we live, and move, and have our being. understand now?

and yes he's A person, and only ONE person, (smile). but let's get it right. he's a REAL person, we are creations of his, made, made in the REAL person image. see, an Image is a representation of the external form of a person or thing. a visible impression of the REAL PERSON. are you getting it now. we're creation of the CREATOR. that's why he came in flesh so that we may be like him, this is the NEW CREATION, man like GOD. he "took part" in our humanity so that we may be "Partaker of his divine NATURE, see 2 Peter 1:4. there is so much for all of us to know. not just you, but us all.

be blessed.

 

[101G]

But it is YOU who are now dividing believers.
The Nicene Creed was accepted by all Christians even AFTER the reformation.

Adam accepted eating what God told him not to, that's why there are divisions now. accepting the wrong thing.

It's only in recent times that we're returning to the heresy of arianism.
It IS a heresy.

no, men unaware crept in and change the word of God into a lie, (see Romans 1:25). they fooled many, even unto today. many when the Lord Jesus comes into their life, they truly follow him, and leave the doctrine where they was previous taught. people are waking up to the truth. many eyes was blinded to the truth, even Israel today is still blinded, which is US. God did this for a reason. and now they are jealous of the truth and the freedom one have? no, this is God plan. I just thank God he intervened in my life.

To say that Jesus is not a person of the HolyTrinity, or declare that the Holy Trinity does not exist, IS heresy.

heresy to who?...... men. what the trinity is, a false doctrine given by men to steal true worship away form the true CREATOR, who is ONE PERSON, not 3.

I can hardly understand what you're saying above. Sorry.
What separates YOU from the JW?

TRUTH, I don't believe in a god, I believe in A GOD.

 

[101G]

Evidence #2. the Lord Jesus is the Father. Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me".
Here again the LORD all cap is "a" Saviour. only one. for all who say the LORD is a separate PERSON form the Lord, I suggest you study. we will get to the Holy Spirit also.
be blessed.

 

[101G]

Evidence #3. the Lord Jesus is the Father. Isaiah 49:26 "And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob".
here in this verse, the LORD all cap id A. Saviour and B. Redeemer. well that just took the wind out of any trinity sail as with to the respect of ANY other person in the Godhead. I might as well post some more scriptures stating the same as to who the LORD really is.

Isaiah 60:16 "Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Hmmmm, he said it twice, no mistake.

now we will move on to the Holy Spirit, THE Lord JESUS. but before we Go. this LORD is not the Lord thing. let's lay it to rest also. Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". many have said that David "Lord" had a "LORD". are you sure? in this same chapter we can prove it not so, but for time sake, Isaiah 51:22 "Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again". Thy Lord is the LORD. sound just like Thomas, John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". my is the same as Thy. and the Lord is the LORD who is God. here, scripture clearly in the OT as well as in the NT states that the Lord is the LORD. same person, scripture don't lie.

next, lets look at the Holy One of Israel, the HOLY Spirit who is the Lord Jesus.

Be blessed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam accepted eating what God told him not to, that's why there are divisions now. accepting the wrong thing.

So who is accepting the wrong thing?
The early Church theologians who kept the Christian faith from heresies, or those today who do not agree with them?
Are YOU following something man told you or something God told you?
How do you know God told you?
Did you learn it from an accredited Church?
Or from the Holy Spirit?
How come the Holy Spirit tells everyone something different?

no, men unaware crept in and change the word of God into a lie, (see Romans 1:25). they fooled many, even unto today. many when the Lord Jesus comes into their life, they truly follow him, and leave the doctrine where they was previous taught. people are waking up to the truth. many eyes was blinded to the truth, even Israel today is still blinded, which is US. God did this for a reason. and now they are jealous of the truth and the freedom one have? no, this is God plan. I just thank God he intervened in my life.

It's good that you have faith in God.
But why are you here, disagreeing in some way or other from what Christianity has ALWAYS been?

heresy to who?...... men. what the trinity is, a false doctrine given by men to steal true worship away form the true CREATOR, who is ONE PERSON, not 3.

TRUTH, I don't believe in a god, I believe in A GOD.

You teach a heresy. You believe in A GOD.
So you are exactly like the JW. Maybe you are one.
You should not be speaking about Jesus then; you're breaking the very first commandment.

You do love the O.T.
Have you read the N.T.?

The true Creator is ONE, not three, as you state.
You don't understand the Trinity and so you discard it.
Did you think you'd understand everything about God???
That would make you like God.

 

[amadeus]

101
You see. You want us to walk together, and well we should. It's what Jesus preached.

But it is YOU who are now dividing believers.
The Nicene Creed was accepted by all Christians even AFTER the reformation.

The Reformation occurred because while the organized church held things together with their guidelines, they failed to correct too many of their own internal errors... and help believers to grow in accord with Ephesians 4:11-14.

Structuring things, including the establishing the Nicene Creed worked toward keeping things at the status quo, but how desirable was that? It also prevented healthy growth toward a closer walk with God. Martin Luther and other reformers were likely quite wrong in many things, but they were breaking the mold which was in itself causing stagnation in place of growth.

When the mold was broken open it truly opened up the gates of hell, but it also opened up the gates of heaven. People were able a little more openly to decide whether their goal was heaven or hell.

It's only in recent times that we're returning to the heresy of arianism.
It IS a heresy.

Even if it is heresy, it is then just a part of the hell more openly available to whosoever will. Along with it is a Way to God which was at least obscured and in some ways probably blocked.

To say that Jesus is not a person of the HolyTrinity, or declare that the Holy Trinity does not exist, IS heresy.

What then is heresy?

Paul makes it clear in the following verse that to some he was considered a heretic because he was a follower of the way of Jesus:

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" Acts 24:14

Would we all agree that Paul after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus was always a heretic? Probably not!

Both Peter and Paul use the word, heresy, in other places as something, which is opposed to the Truth, which they support [I Cor 11:19, Gal 5:20, II Peter 2:1].

Maybe all of us should be careful about calling anyone a heretic or accusing anyone of heresy.

Maybe when Jesus calls some hypocrites, could He have used the word “heretics” for them with the same meaning?

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23:13-15

Can we not do what Jesus did? It would seem to me that we could do that without putting ourselves in condemnation, ONLY IF, we knew as much as He knew about the ones we were calling such a name.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Reformation occurred because while the organized church held things together with their guidelines, they failed to correct too many of their own internal errors... and help believers to grow in accord with Ephesians 4:11-14.

Structuring things, including the establishing the Nicene Creed worked toward keeping things at the status quo, but how desirable was that? It also prevented healthy growth toward a closer walk with God. Martin Luther and other reformers were likely quite wrong in many things, but they were breaking the mold which was in itself causing stagnation in place of growth.

When the mold was broken open it truly opened up the gates of hell, but it also opened up the gates of heaven. People were able a little more openly to decide whether their goal was heaven or hell.



Even if it is heresy, it is then just a part of the hell more openly available to whosoever will. Along with it is a Way to God which was at least obscured and in some ways probably blocked.



What then is heresy?

Paul makes it clear in the following verse that to some he was considered a heretic because he was a follower of the way of Jesus:

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" Acts 24:14

Would we all agree that Paul after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus was always a heretic? Probably not!

Both Peter and Paul use the word, heresy, in other places as something, which is opposed to the Truth, which they support [I Cor 11:19, Gal 5:20, II Peter 2:1].

Maybe all of us should be careful about calling anyone a heretic or accusing anyone of heresy.

Maybe when Jesus calls some hypocrites, could He have used the word “heretics” for them with the same meaning?

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23:13-15

Can we not do what Jesus did? It would seem to me that we could do that without putting ourselves in condemnation, ONLY IF, we knew as much as He knew about the ones we were calling such a name.

I'm sorry A,
I'm totally lost.
Is Jesus God or not?

 

[amadeus]

I'm sorry A,
I'm totally lost.
Is Jesus God or not?

Yes, I believe so!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I believe so!

OK!!
Amen.

 

[101G]

The Holy One,
Who is the Holy Spirit, who is the Lord Jesus. just follow the color code.

Evidence #4. the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Psalms 78:40 & 41 "How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel”. cross reference Hebrew 3:7-11, see below.

Psalms 95:6-11 "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. cross reference Hebrew 3:7-11 see below.

Now let's hear Hebrews 3:7-11 which is a direct quote, watch who is speaking.

Hebrews 3:7-11 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
THIS IS A WORD FOR WORD QUOTE, and the writer of Hebrews said that it was the "HOLY GHOST" who was speaking, and was provoke in the wilderness. the question, "is the HOLY ONE of Israel the LORD?, meaning the Holy Spirit? for the doctrine states that the FATHER is not the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT, vise versa. remember, the writer of Hebrews says it's the Holy Ghost that was provoke in the wilderness. this should without a doubt eliminate any three person in any trinity. let the scriptures speak. follow the color code

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee". here, clearly the Holy one of Israel is the LORD, all caps, and the Saviour. we know that the Saviour is the Lord Jesus.

Isaiah 43:15 "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King". Hmmmmm... the Holy One is the CREATOR, and KING. scripture, 1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen". Well, well, well, the Holy One is the LORD all cap, who is Lord. well then the LORD all caps must have a body, and the Holy One too, and we know that the Lord Jesus have a body, so all three must be IMMORTAL. or.................... the LORD, is the HOLY ONE, who is the Lord who is Jesus that have one body as Colossians 2:9 states. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". he, the Lord Jesus is the LORD, (the Father), the Holy One, (the Holy Spirit) all in one body. scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
if one cannot see the truth by now. Lord help you. YES, the Lord is the LORD in flesh.

let's throw in a few more scriptures for surety. Isaiah 43:14 "Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

MUST I GO ON? Ok, just a few more.

Isaiah 48:17 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go". I is singular, meaning ONE PERSON.

Isaiah 47:4 "As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

I hope you all make note of theses verses, and cross reference. for clarity re-read the post.

 

[OzSpen]

se Oz your lying. you said this, "The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord”. now scripture, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". is not Jesus the Christ Lord. well Oz you have a conflict, because you said, In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord”. well your answer please.

101,

That's a red herring. I refuted your view at #305 and I will not be repeating the nature of the teaching on the Trinity. You are accusing me of being a liar. I object strongly to this pejorative and false labelling of my character. By the way, please learn the difference between 'your' and 'you're'.

Gill's Exposition of Isa 43:11 states:

I, even I, am the Lord,.... Jehovah, the self-existing, eternal, and immutable Being; this is doubled for the confirmation of it, and to exclude all others: and besides me there is no Saviour; either in a temporal or spiritual sense; the gods of the Heathens could not save them out of their present troubles, and much less save them with an everlasting salvation; none but God can do this, and this is a proof that Christ is God, since none but God can be a Saviour.​

Isaiah is comparing the Lord Jehovah with other gods. That's why he is THE LORD and the other gods are 'lords', nothing in comparison with THE LORDl

Oz

 

[101G]

I refuted your view at #305 and I will not be repeating the nature of the teaching on the Trinity. You are accusing me of being a liar. I object strongly to this pejorative and false labelling of my character. By the way, please learn the difference between 'your' and 'you're'.

well forgive me, I'll say it this way you're in ERROR. and Jehovah is not God name, so that TWO WRONGE that don't make a RIGHT..... (smile)
good day to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

I hope you all make note of theses verses, and cross reference. for clarity re-read the post.

yikes how bout we just worship you and get it over with already lol

 

[101G]

yikes how bout we just worship you and get it over with already lol

then you will be in to idolatry.... LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

yikes how bout we just worship you and get it over with already lol

 

[101G]

Just for edification. Authority & Power. LORD all cap, is God, the Spirit without flesh and Bone, no body, OT and NT. Lord only cap "L" is God, the Spirit with flesh, with bone, having a body. lord all lower case is angelic, or human. the Lord is the LORD in flesh.
supportive scripture, Isaiah 51:22 "Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again". here the Lord is LORD, who is the ONLY true God. just as Thomas said "My Lord and my God.

Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". here the Spirit, (LORD) is speaking to the diversified spirit in flesh (Lord) is fulfilling this prophecy as we now speak. he is making his enemies his footstool.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just for edification. Authority & Power. LORD all cap, is God, the Spirit without flesh and Bone, no body, OT and NT. Lord only cap "L" is God, the Spirit with flesh, with bone, having a body. lord all lower case is angelic, or human. the Lord is the LORD in flesh.
supportive scripture, Isaiah 51:22 "Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again". here the Lord is LORD, who is the ONLY true God. just as Thomas said "My Lord and my God.

Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". here the Spirit, (LORD) is speaking to the diversified spirit in flesh (Lord) is fulfilling this prophecy as we now speak. he is making his enemies his footstool.

Good post.

 

[101G]

@GG, first thanks for the thumbs up. I know that you hold to the Nicene Creed. that's ok, it's always good to stand for something instead of falling for anything. in my theology, my, so called, to say, Nicene Creed, is Genesis 1:1. here is where I really learned who the Father and the Son really is, and started my quest in diversity. not two separate persons but "a" one being who shared himself in flesh, which was to come in the NT. The OT and the NT is so tied together, I look at them as such. the OT is the NT hidden. and the NT is the OT revealed. when I learned that, the bible open up to me. just as he did in Genesis 1:1 the Lord Jesus revealed to me his TITLES, not his person(s), but HIS Titles. the "Aleph" and the "Tav", Hebrew, or the First and the Last, English, and the Alpha and the Omega, Greek. all right there in Genesis 1:1. see, it's nothing NEW under the sun. his doctrine have been there all alone. so what I teach is nothing NEW. it's only new to many, because they just haven't heard the TRUTH before from the beginning. to really understand God and know of him, ask the Holy Spirit/JESUS to reveal himself to you in the scriptures. he's faithful.

men make a lot of Laws, creeds, and doctrines. there is nothing wrong with any, but make sure it's correct. so, study the record call Genesis, it contain so much truth that have not yet been discovered, it will blow your mind. but likewise it will set you correctly to navigate the word of God correctly. get it right in the beginning, then one will know where they are at in the end.

Peace in Christ Jesus.