What is truth?

[Matthias]

Do you ever read it study the Church fathers?

Yes. Primarily for the purpose of tracking the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity, but also other issues from time to time as the crop up.

 

[Matthias]

What ever happened to Christian charity? That was rude

It was out of character for him. I never saw it coming; his reaction took me completely by surprise. He is one of the kindest, gentlest, loving souls I’ve ever met. He’s an outstanding person. A man dedicated to caring for his family and his neighbors. He started a ministry in the church to do simple repair on homes, cars and appliances for widows and single mothers. The church had a small budget for his ministry but he often paid for materials out of his own pocket.

My spirit still grieves for him whenever I recall the incident.

 

[theefaith]

It was out of character for him. I never saw it coming; his reaction took me completely by surprise. He is one of the kindest, gentlest, loving souls I’ve ever met. He’s an outstanding person. A man dedicated to caring for his family and his neighbors. He started a ministry in the church to do simple repair on homes, cars and appliances for widows and single mothers. The church had a small budget for his ministry but he often paid for materials out of his own pocket.

My spirit still grieves for him whenever I recall the incident.

all you can do is offer it up and pray for him

 

[Matthias]

@theefaith some trinitarians - most, in my experience - believe Jesus was a human person. The historical orthodox doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that Jesus wasn’t a human person. (You would have learned that in the RCC, as my wife did. I learned it in the SBC, though it was not taught from the pulpit.) We’ve already discussed that, but not the ramifications of it.

Some trinitarians believe God died. Some trinitarians believe the second person of the Trinity died. Some trinitarians believe God didn’t die. Some trinitarians don’t believe the second person of the Trinity died. All trinitarians believe Jesus died - but was always nevertheless still alive and doing something, somewhere, while the time passed between his death, burial and resurrection.

What is your position on that?

 

[Angelina]

Truth is what God says it is. It is defined by his Word.

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith some trinitarians - most, in my experience - believe Jesus was a human person. The historical orthodox doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that Jesus wasn’t a human person. (You would have learned that in the RCC, as my wife did. I learned it in the SBC, though it was not taught from the pulpit.) We’ve already discussed that, but not the ramifications of it.

Some trinitarians believe God died. Some trinitarians believe the second person of the Trinity died. Some trinitarians believe God didn’t die. Some trinitarians don’t believe the second person of the Trinity died. All trinitarians believe Jesus died - but was always nevertheless still alive and doing something, somewhere, while the time passed between his death, burial and resurrection.

What is your position on that?

the second person of the trinity became man and was fully God (divine nature) and fully man (human nature) with two natures and two wills!

his human nature died on the cross completing the Passover sacrifice that began with the last supper!

 

[theefaith]

How can you’re position say Jesus is God but not have distinct persons without it being modalism?

 

[Matthias]

the second person of the trinity became man and was fully God (divine nature) and fully man (human nature) with two natures and two wills!

his human nature died on the cross completing the Passover sacrifice that began with the last supper!

So a human person didn’t die on the cross; a divine person’s human nature did.

When Jesus died he remained alive. Why? Because he is a divine person - the second person of the Trinity.

What, if anything, do you say to those trinitarians who say “God died” or “The second person of the Trinity died”? Are there any negative consequences for holding and teaching their belief?

 

[Matthias]

How can you’re position say Jesus is God but not have distinct persons without it being modalism?

My God is a distinct person, the Father.

Jesus is a human person.

“Jesus is God” only in a secondary sense, as the Father’s unique and supreme human agent / representative.

Modalists believe “Jesus is God” in a primary sense; that he literally is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I’m not a modalist.

That was a good question. Thanks.

 

[theefaith]

So a human person didn’t die on the cross; a divine person’s human nature did.

When Jesus died he remained alive. Why? Because he is a divine person - the second person of the Trinity.

What, if anything, do you say to those trinitarians who say “God died” or “The second person of the Trinity died”? Are there any negative consequences for holding and teaching their belief?

God did die in the cross cos Jesus is God, but his human body that he received from mother Mary

he is one person
That why Mary is the mother of God, not cos God (the divine nature) has a mother but cos Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, hence the exalted dignity of Mary the mother of God!

Also the temple of God and ark of the new covenant in whom God dwelt for nine months!

The trinity is a supernatural mystery we will not full comprehend it, if the minds of Augustine and Aquinus struggled with it our small minds sure ain’t gonna grasp it

 

[Matthias]

God did die in the cross cos Jesus is God, but his human body that he received from mother Mary

he is one person
That why Mary is the mother of God, not cos God (the divine nature) has a mother but cos Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, hence the exalted dignity of Mary the mother of God!

Also the temple of God and ark of the new covenant in whom God dwelt for nine months!

The trinity is a supernatural mystery we will not full comprehend it, if the minds of Augustine and Aquinus struggled with it our small minds sure ain’t gonna grasp it

“We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the Cross.”

(R.C.Sproul, “Did God Die on the cross?”)

Did God Die on the Cross?

I don’t share Dr. Sproul’s trinitarian belief but I would have agreed with the sentiment he expressed when I did.

My position as a Jewish monotheist:

I would shrink in horror from the idea that my God, the Messiah’s God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob died on the cross.

It isn’t the God of Israel who dies in scripture; it’s the Messiah.

The God of Israel is the living God. Everything else is idols.

 

[theefaith]

“We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the Cross.”

(R.C.Sproul, “Did God Die on the cross?”)

Did God Die on the Cross?

I don’t share Dr. Sproul’s trinitarian belief but I would have agreed with the sentiment he expressed when I did.

My position as a Jewish monotheist:

I would shrink in horror from the idea that my God, the Messiah’s God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob died on the cross.

It isn’t the God of Israel who dies in scripture; it’s the Messiah.

The God of Israel is the living God. Everything else is idols.

that why the gospel is a stumbling block to the jews

 

[Matthias]

that why the gospel is a stumbling block to the jews

The God of the Jews cannot die. That’s non-negotiable.

When trinitarians tell the Jews (as well as non-Jews) that God died, it opens the door for me to tell them that God didn’t die; the Messiah, himself a Jew, died, was buried and then three days later resurrected to life by their God. That is an essential component of the gospel.

 

[theefaith]

The God of the Jews cannot die. That’s non-negotiable.

When trinitarians tell the Jews (as well as non-Jews) that God died, it opens the door for me to tell them that God didn’t die; the Messiah, himself a Jew, died, was buried and then three days later resurrected to life by their God. That is an essential component of the gospel.

his divine nature does not die only his human nature or body

but in the one person of Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead

“And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning” (John 8:23-25)

 

[Matthias]

his divine nature does not die only his human nature or body

That’s trinitarian theology 101.

but in the one person of Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead

Yes.

“And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning” (John 8:23-25)

That’s right.

You, apparently, think he told them from the beginning that he is the second person of a deity which is not their God.

I believe he was telling them from the beginning that he is the one whom his God and their God promised to raise up from among them.

 

[Matthias]

“The woman said to him, ‘I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will declare all things to us.’ Jesus said to her, ‘I who speak to you am he.’”

(John 4:25-26)

What Jesus said - “I am he; I am the Messiah.”

What trinitarians hear - “I AM He; I am God; I am the second person of the Trinity.”

The reason John gave for why he wrote his Gospel - “so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31)

John says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity. That later, post-biblical, concept is being read into the text by trinitarians.

 

[theefaith]

That’s trinitarian theology 101.



Yes.



That’s right.

You, apparently, think he told them from the beginning that he is the second person of a deity which is not their God.

I believe he was telling them from the beginning that he is the one whom his God and their God promised to raise up from among them.

then you must admit modalism???

 

[Matthias]

then you must admit modalism???

What do you want me to admit about it? I’ll accommodate you if I can. (I’ve already said - admitted? - that I’m not a modalist.)

 

[theefaith]

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Greetings, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And unto what were you baptized?

the Christian sacrament of baptism in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit when I was 16! 16 days old that is!

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[theefaith]

It is written, if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Therefore, we cannot speak as the oracles of God and say things like "the christian sacrament of baptism". For no such thing is mentioned. It is written again, to the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. You testify therefore by your use of this vain phrase "the christian sacrament of baptism" that there is no light in you. Because in God was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. This is why the Word is unto the righteous a lamp unto their feet, and a light unto their path. But he way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

Furthermore, I have to let you know that as someone who is part of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that you are not a Christian. You are dead in trespasses and sins; and are by nature a child of wrath, even as others. For you have not been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Because the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.

yes like I said the Christian sacrament of baptism

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!

It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!

You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!

Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!

The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!

“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru faith and the sacraments!)