What is truth?
- Thread starter theefaith
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The correct answer is what the 1st century church taught. What comes after that, if it doesn’t align, is apostasy.
We are able to agree on much but 80% sounds like an overestimate to me. I like your optimism though.
Yes. The more we speak together the more there will be.
I’ve enjoyed our conversations and have shared some of what we’ve discussed with family and friends.
Do, or have, you read Chesterton?
“We shall soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying two and two make four, in which people will persecute the heresy of calling a triangle a three-sided figure, and hang a man for maddening a mob with the news that grass is green.”
https://twitter.com/GKCdaily/status/1540743220937854976?s=20&t=h6sE_FBkfTI-CPypsw8m0w
I’m thinking we’ll achieve 100% agreement on this quotation.
The truth like God who reveals it is immutable!
the church is ir-reformable!
must teach all nations always the same Matt 28:19 witnesses to the ends of the earth acts 1:8 si the apostles are still in authority and have a threefold office!
teach, governing, and to sanctify!
Authority of the Apostles!
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!
apostle means one who is sent!
Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!
The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.
The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Paul wrote about a coming apostasy in the church, which was already at work even mid 1st century.
You made an excellent point about Christ being an apostle. He is an apostle; his God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses, the God of the prophets, the God of the Jews, the God of the first generation of Christians - isn’t an apostle. Their God, the one God, is the sender, not the sent.
I’m in favor of as much agreement as possible. The more the better. The more we talk and reason together the more we’ll find that we have in common.
But it only goes so far. You have lines that you’re not able to cross, at least presently, and I have lines that I’m not able to cross (or even recross), at least presently.
I don’t agree with everything he said but I find that I’m able to agree with much of what he said. The man was extraordinarily witty. My Protestant upbringing prejudiced me against reading Chesterton and other Catholic writers. What a tragedy, but that’s the distant past.
Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically.
That’s the present for me, and a present which I gave to my students. Cults hate it.
Do, or have, you read Spurgeon?
Only in his human nature
Heresy, schism, and apostasy are outside the church.
Cut off! As He says Jn 15:1-5
Why, in his human nature, was his God only one person?
In his human nature, our human nature, he isn’t a trinitarian. He’s by definition in his / our human nature a unitarian.
There is no Jesus the trinitarian; there is Jesus the unitarian.
His faith is Jewish unitary monotheism, not trinitarian monotheism.
The God of Abraham is the God of Jesus. One person, one being, the Father.
There is no God besides the God of Abraham and of Jesus in our human nature.
Once again, your comments about the Vatican resurface in my mind.
here’s a few dogma’s
anything jump out at ya we can talk it up!
- God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things.
- God’s existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith.
- God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
- The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence.
- The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural.
- The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the light of glory.
- God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven.
- The Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence.
- God is absolutely perfect.
- God is actually infinite in every perfection.
- God is absolutely simple.
- There is only One God.
- The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God.
- God possesses an infinite power of cognition.
- God is absolute Veracity.
- God is absolutely faithful.
- God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
- God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
- God is absolute Benignity.
- God is absolutely immutable.
- God is eternal.
- God is immense or absolutely immeasurable.
- God is everywhere present in created space.
- God’s knowledge is infinite.
- God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae).
- God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis).
- By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty.
- God’s Divine will is infinite.
- God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom.
- God is almighty.
- God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth.
- God is infinitely just.
- God is infinitely merciful.
- In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
- In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
- The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
- The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
- The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
- The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
- The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
- The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
- All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
- All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.
- God was moved by His Goodness to create the world.
- The world was created for the Glorification of God.
- The Three Divine Persons are one single, common Principle of the Creation.
- God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity.
- God has created a good world.
- The world had a beginning in time.
- God alone created the World.
- God keeps all created things in existence.
- God through His providence protects and guides all that He has created.
no! Sorry
I live wit and wittiness!
he’s a Jew and exactly a great example but as far as wit goes Groucho Marx on the you bet you’re life is hilarious!
I’m glad to hear it. I wish we lived closer together. I have, or at least had, relatives living in your part of God’s good earth. I haven’t been down your way since 1977.
I lost my best friend (at one time) due to our different beliefs. He, a trinitarian, me - unbeknownst to him - a Jewish monotheist.
We attended church together for a year. One day I took him out to lunch - my treat - and during the meal I told him what I believe about God. He was shocked. When he finally spoke he replied that we could no longer be friends, got up out of his seat, rushed out of the restaurant - his meal not even half eaten - and I haven’t seen or spoken with him since. That would have been back in 1997.
Some folks are like that. Some folks aren’t.
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