What Need I of Grace?

[justbyfaith]

Of course not.

You are wrong.

In 1 Corinthians 15:56 we find that the strength of sin is the law; and this is referring to the ten commandments.

The ten commandments bring a curse to those who are of them (Galatians 3:10).

And this is not to say that as believers in Christ we are not obedient to them; for they are written on the hearts and minds of all those who are under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16).

In bearing the fruit of the Spirit we do not do anything that is in violation of the law (Galatians 5:22-23)

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[HARK!]

You are wrong.

I presented an expanded portion of the letter in context; and you want to prove me wrong by presenting 'out of context' snippets from other letters, even from different authors?

Your counterargument is ridiculous.

 

[justbyfaith]

I presented an expanded portion of the letter in context; and you want to prove me wrong by presenting 'out of context' snippets from other letters, even from different authors?

Your counterargument is ridiculous.

Praise the LORD!

All of scripture is to be taken into account.

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[HARK!]

Praise the LORD!

All of scripture is to be taken into account.

The question related to what the verse meant. I put the verse into context with the preceding verse. The you said I was wrong. Your argument is not with me. Your argument is with Paul. Paul is not wrong. You are.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

 

[Taken]

1 John 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Some say that, as believers in Yahshua, we have no more commitment to the law.

Now if there is no law, there is no transgression. If there is no transgression; there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then I would ask, "what need I of grace?

Good Question.

There is The Mosaic Law.
...that some men fulfill.
...that Jesus Fulfilled.
There is Mans Civil Law.
...that some men fulfill.
...that Jesus Fulfilled.
There is Laws of Nature.
...that BY one man & woman fulfilling...
...an individual man is born IN SIN.
...that BY Gods Fulfillment, Jesus Was Born, without Sin.

A man Born IN SIN, is a man Born AGAINST God.

God provides "through His Grace", A WAY for every man to Be MADE "With God", instead of AGAINST God.

It is the Individual's Choice to overcome his Natural Birth, per the Law of Nature, (NOT per the deeds of Mosaic Law, NOT per the deeds of Civil Law) and Become MADE With God, or Not.

Rom 3:
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

The question related to what the verse meant. I put the verse into context with the preceding verse. The you said I was wrong. Your argument is not with me. Your argument is with Paul. Paul is not wrong. You are.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

The law is indeed holy and just and good.

However it is used by sin to bring about that which is evil, in order that sin might be found to be utterly sinful. Romans 7:13.

The law condemns, Galatians 3:10, 1 Corinthians 15:56.

And that is the bottom line.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Of course not.

Look at the second word in verse 8:1.

1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

This verse begins a conclusion that is predicated on preceding portions of this letter. Let's start by looking just one verse back:

25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

Slaving for YHWH's Law..... These don't strike me as the words of someone who is not obedient to YHWH's Law.

It is all predicated on being born again. In fact, Jesus said, "You MUST be born again. The only way to keep the holy requirements of God's laws is by the indwelling divine nature of God. You MUST stay in the Spirit. Without being a new creation, our old flesh will want to indulge in fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, which is sin, which brings death.

 

[HARK!]

The law is indeed holy and just and good.

However it is used by sin

Nonsense. Sin is not a person; so it can't use anything. Sin is an action. It's the act of breaking the law.

 

[CharismaticLady]

not by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts

I hope I know what you are trying to say, but on the other hand you miss the point entirely, because you can take your statement to the extreme as many actually do and do exactly what Paul spoke against in Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:15. Don't you know that "do not murder" is one of the does and don'ts? Yet John said in 1 John 3:14-15 "14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

If someone like HARK wants to love Jesus and love their neighbor and still respect the Ten Commandments, he is on the right path. Those who take your statement to the extreme and say nothing they do or don't do regarding sin matters as long as they have faith in Jesus (what does that mean to them anyway???), then I have a serious problem with their message.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Nonsense. Sin is not a person; so it can't use anything. Sin is an action. It's the act of breaking the law.

What Romans 7 is about is someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments IN THEIR OWN STRENGTH only, like the Jews did before Christ came. The Spirit is what makes the New Covenant far superior to the Old Covenant (without the Spirit). The Spirit makes you not only keep the Ten Commandments, but even deeper to the heart. Only through the Spirit can we truly love our neighbor as ourselves. Do you agree?

 

[HARK!]

What Romans 7 is about is someone trying to keep the Ten Commandments IN THEIR OWN STRENGTH only, like the Jews did before Christ came. The Spirit is what makes the New Covenant far superior to the Old Covenant (without the Spirit). The Spirit makes you not only keep the Ten Commandments, but even deeper to the heart. Only through the Spirit can we truly love our neighbor as ourselves. Do you agree?

I disagree; but probably not for the reason that you might think.

The word is associate, not neighbor. Do you see the difference? I believe this means we are to love the others in the body as ourselves. This is much easier than loving the demon possessed as ourselves, not that we shouldn't love them, maybe just from a neighborly distance.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I disagree; but probably not for the reason that you might think.

The word is associate, not neighbor. Do you see the difference? I believe this means we are to love the others in the body as ourselves. This is much easier than loving the demon possessed as ourselves, not that we shouldn't love them, maybe just from a neighborly distance.

What about His command to love our enemy? Are they our associate/brethren?

 

[justbyfaith]

Nonsense. Sin is not a person; so it can't use anything. Sin is an action. It's the act of breaking the law.

Rom 7:13, Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

There it is right there.

Pro 18:13, He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

You should have at least looked up the verse that I referenced; if you had, you would have avoided this embarrassment.

Don't you know that "do not murder" is one of the does and don'ts?

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in the heart of the believer via the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

And Romans 13:8-10 shows us that if I love my neighbor as myself, I am not going to murder someone, neither will I violate any of the other commandments.

But my salvation is not through keeping the law, it is through faith, by which I receive the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Through the Spirit I receive the love of the Lord, which is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within me (Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10).

It means that I will not operate in violation of any just law (Galatians 5:22-23; see also Psalms 94:20).

But not because I am seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts; no, rather it is because I have faith in Jesus, have received His Spirit; and as a result I bear the fruit of the Spirit: against such there is no (just) law.

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[justbyfaith]

What about His command to love our enemy? Are they our associate/brethren?

Yes indeed.

This is found in Matthew 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-35

 

[HARK!]

What about His command to love our enemy? Are they our associate/brethren?

Way ahead of you.

I covered that with the demon possessed neighbor.

He doesn't say love your demon possessed neighbor as yourself.

If he's howling at the moon; maybe you should throw him some table scraps.

(CLV) Mt 15:26
Yet He, answering , said, "It is not ideal to be taking the children's bread and to be casting it to the puppies."

(CLV) Mt 15:27
Yet she said, "Yes, Lord! For the puppies also are eating of the scraps that are falling from their masters' table."

 

[HARK!]

Rom 7:13, Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul in no way says that sin uses the law for anything.

Your initial statement is absurd; and your strawman argument is ridiculous.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Way ahead of you.

I covered that with the demon possessed neighbor.

He doesn't say love your demon possessed neighbor as yourself.

If he's howling at the moon; maybe you should throw him some table scraps.

(CLV) Mt 15:26
Yet He, answering , said, "It is not ideal to be taking the children's bread and to be casting it to the puppies."

(CLV) Mt 15:27
Yet she said, "Yes, Lord! For the puppies also are eating of the scraps that are falling from their masters' table."

Sorry Hark, but the gospel was first and foremost for the fall or rise of Israel, which is why he shunned the Gentile woman. And after Israel it went to the Samaritans through the deacon, Phillip. It wasn't to go to the Gentiles until later. Cornelius was the first Gentile convert, by Peter.

And, yes, we ARE to love our demon possessed neighbor which is why we are given the authority to cast out demons. So there!

If we just show love to our family and church, then what kind of witness are we to save the lost - our enemies?

 

[justbyfaith]

He doesn't say love your demon possessed neighbor as yourself.

Jesus did (see Mark 5).

1Pe 2:21, For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul in no way says that sin uses the law for anything.

Your initial statement is absurd; and your strawman argument is ridiculous.

Praise God. You appear to be basically blind to what is directly in front of you.

I suggest that you read 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

 

[justbyfaith]

Cornelius was the first Gentile.

I know you mean that he was the first Gentile Christian; it is also true that his friends were converted along with him when Peter preached to them; and they all spoke in other tongues.