What Old Covenant Laws are the New Covenant believer to obey?

[Ziggy]

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I went looking for works of the law in the OT last night. Not the rituals or sacrificial laws. I guess sundry laws?

Is this law contrary to what we find in the NT?

Deu 15:7
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
Deu 15:8
But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
Deu 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
Deu 15:10
Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.
Deu 15:11
For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Notice in verse 10 it says "for this thing the Lord thy God shall bless thee in all thy works"
In verse 11 it says: Thou shalt open thy hand wide"

What are the works of the law?
In verse 11 it says: "therefore I command thee"

Here I would say is a command of the works of the law.
I would call this a 'good work" opposed to the list of works of the flesh listed above.

The thing that makes this law spiritual is in verse 10 it says "thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest"

Doesn't Paul teach the same thing?

2Co 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

What connects this same idea is the giving without being grieved nor grudgingly.

But if you keep this law accorrding to verse 9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.

Then it becomes an evil work and not a good work. It becomes a law of the flesh and not a fruit of the spirit.

I believe we are not "under the law" to keep the law for the law sake. But the principle of the spirit of the law is always in God's words.
I could list many verses where Jesus speaks about feeding the hungry and giving place to the poor.
The difference between the OT and the NT is Israel didn't keep the spirit of it but did give begrudgingly and it grieved them in the heart.
They did what was written for the sole purpose of being considered righteous, but they were not righteous in their heart.
The works of the law can not save you. It is the rightness of the heart.

Luk 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You hypocrites do the works of the law, but the fruit of the spirit is not in you.

The OT speaks of the works that God did for the children in the wilderness. He fed them, he kept their clothes from decay, he kept them from harm. These are the works God does for us that he wants us to do for eachother.
But with a right heart and not with envy or strife or hatred, when these are present it is no longer the fruit of the spirit but becomes the works of the law only.
And the works of the law don't make you righteous if you do it with an evil heart.

Joshua says:
Jos 1:7
Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
Jos 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

1Th 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

It is not the law that is flawed. It's the application of how to apply it.
They missed that part. They omitted judgment, mercy, faith. The very spirit of the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There is no law that says thou shalt hate thy brother. There is no law that says be evil, faithless, intolerant.

Lev 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
1Jo 2:9
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

It's the heart that is flawed not the law. If you walk according to what is written and how it is applied, there is no difference between the old and the new accept it's application of the heart and of the mind.

And what you add to it or subtract from it.

Deu 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Eze 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This is the new covenant.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The only difference is the heart and the spirit within the law.
A translation from dead works, or those things of the heart which lead to death, unto the the things of the heart which lead to life.

God never changes. It's us who have to change.
And we have to listen to every word.
Specially those which pertain to the heart of the matter.

Hugs

 

[Behold]

1. Everything that is not specifically annulled by name in the New Covenant?

2. All that is called "Moral" law which is the Ten Commandments PLUS what is added to the Ten such as in the Larger Westminster Catechism?

3. All the Old Covenant laws for they come from God?

4. No Old Covenant law for all was abolished and annulled?

5. Only the everlasting Law of God existing prior to the Old Covenant, which is also found contained in the Old Covenant, and continuing by direct command from Jesus in the New Covenant?

Which do you believe and on what scriptures do you base your belief?

"The Law came by Moses...but Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Christ".

"Christ is the : = END... OF....THE...LAW...for Righteousness, to everyone who Believes".

"The Law is the power of sin, and the power of sin is The Law".

"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from = The..Curse...OF...The ... Law".

 

[Ziggy]

2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Christ is the epitome: A representative or perfect example of a class or type, Of the law.
He is the perfect representation of what the spirit of the law was to become of Israel, if they had followed it with their hearts.

What exactly was abolished?

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

2Ti 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

ordinaces:
ktísis, ktis'-is; from G2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):—building, creation, creature, ordinance.

I find that the passover was an ordinance given to both Israel and to the those that would join themselves to Israel.
Num 9:14
And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

So the passover was abolished because Christ himself is the passover lamb.
He is the end of the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Num 18:8
And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

This ordinance was abolished by Christ himself becoming our High Priest.

The ordinance which kept Jews and Gentiles seperate from the promises of God had been abolished.

cont..

 

[Ziggy]

And the curse of the law:

Deu 11:26
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28
And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deu 21:22
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus never sinned a sin worthy of death. The people falsley accused him. But he knew that being hanged on a tree would bring a seperation between him and the Father according to the law. But it was Jesus' faith that saved him.
Jesus had more faith in God's righteousness than in man's works of the law.
It is by faith that we are saved and not the works of the law.

Because the law is not of faith. The law is God's righteousness. And it is in God's righteousness that we put our faith in.

Psa 98:2
The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Mat 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Deu 4:8
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Deu 32:1
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Deu 32:3
Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Mat 7:28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

God's doctrine is his law. It is his judgments and his truth.
But man is not righteous. He can not keep the law. Therefore we are given faith in the Lord and his righteousness.

There is nothing unrighteous in the law. It is man's inability to keep it, without faith in the one who gave it which is flawed.

Jesus is the law of God incarnate. With faith and truth and grace.
Jhn 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If there were no laws, then we would all be lawless.
1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The law is our schoolmaster that leads us to the perfection which is in Christ.
You don't get to graduate without going through elementary school first. And the law is the elementary school. To become Christ like is our diploma.
He is the End of the Law or graduation day, for all those who believe and have faith in Him.

Hugs

 

[Peterlag]

Actually, for an in-depth look at how to walk by The Spirit, the believer really needs to read and heed what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5.

Also, the only one born in the flesh that was 'perfect' without sin was our Lord Jesus Christ. So the Christian can... fall away if they are not paying attention to future sin they may slip up and commit. And like Apostle John said about the believer in 1 John 1:8-10, those brethren who claim they don't sin anymore make Jesus a liar.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV


1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
KJV

I can show how to walk by the spirit. What looks like you are saying here is how to walk by the flesh. Or walk by yourself.

Actually, for an in-depth look at how to walk by The Spirit, the believer really needs to read and heed what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5.

 

[Peterlag]

On this approach, I like to use the YLT, so to see if the definite article is included with "law". I take "the law" to be the Old Covenant; law without the definite article I find covered by Rom. 2:14-15 for Gentiles who were never under the law:

"And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:19-20 YLT)

To me that general statement "works of law" means probably that mentioned in Rom. 2:14-15; and for me, I think it also include any law made as a requirement for salvation, such as the requirement of water baptism for salvation.

I admit, sometimes Paul speaks from his Jewish perspective and it seems he is speaking of the Old Covenant, but that would not include the Gentiles.

There is no requirement of water baptism. Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law. There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.” There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So you do not need any Christian teacher

Back when I first got saved and for numerous years after that, sure I attended church and listened to the pastor where I was attending and I listened to some of the well known TV preachers at one time or another.

But, the Lord began leading me to do my own studying in God's Word and it was very helpful to have the internet when I got my first computer around 1999 and I could go online and read all kinds of different view points.

I've never had anything to do with catholic teaching so they were never considered since many of the things they teach are not even in the Bible. But, I also learned the reformers doctrine is choked full of errors so I learned their stuff was to be discarded as not being scriptural.
All that's left is the Gospel of the Kingdom... the Doctrine of Christ straight from the source!

And I learned ALL Christians are supposed to be having their own close personal relationship with the Lord and the Lord should be THE teacher that they follow, not men or religious organization.

So many people are trying to have their relationship with the Lord vicariously thru their pastor, or some popular preachers or thru some religious organization and this is not how the Lord intended for things to be. He wants each person to walk with Him in a close personal relationship where HE comes first!

Once the Lord got me to start paying attention to the warnings He gives in His Word concerning many false teachers / false doctrines that would deceived many in the end times (Math 24), it started making a lot of sense why so many churches and preachers are so desperate to make people dependent upon them rather than teaching people to put the Lord first as their Teacher.

 

[Ziggy]

1. Everything that is not specifically annulled by name in the New Covenant?

2. All that is called "Moral" law which is the Ten Commandments PLUS what is added to the Ten such as in the Larger Westminster Catechism?

3. All the Old Covenant laws for they come from God?

4. No Old Covenant law for all was abolished and annulled?

5. Only the everlasting Law of God existing prior to the Old Covenant, which is also found contained in the Old Covenant, and continuing by direct command from Jesus in the New Covenant?

Which do you believe and on what scriptures do you base your belief?

1. Everything that is not specifically annulled by name in the New Covenant.

Because All the law is fulfilled when we love God and our neighbour as ourselves.

Mat 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38
This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jo 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luk 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jhn 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law as we must also.
Love God, Love your neighbour, thus fulfill the righteousness of the law, through faith in the Lord.
Not in our own works but the works he has done in us.
He has given us a new heart and a new spirit that we may know him and love him and love eachother.
This is the work of the Lord. And this is the work that we must do also. This is All the Law.

Hugs

 

[Davy]

Looking at the vice lists, that which follows the 3rd "God gave them up" in Romans One should not be overlooked, for it shows just how such things as we don't seem to view as so serious, are here in Paul's list, as deserving of death -

"And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them." (Rom 1:28-32 NRSV)

I'm strong for the KJV, but on some things such as a list like this, I find more updated wording is important. Too many seem to think the sins in Romans One stopped at v27 and ignore v28-32.

Yeah, Romans 1:18-32 is especially calling out the sins involving homosexual behavior and idol worship, including worship of things God created.

 

[Davy]

What looks like you are saying here is how to walk by the flesh. Or walk by yourself.

All I did was to show what Apostle Paul revealed about the difference between the two types of 'walks', and from Apostle John of what the 'believer' is to do when they slip up and do future sin based on the works of the flesh.

So you think all that is ME SAYING "how to walk by the flesh", "Or walk by yourself"???

What kind of twisted thinking is in your mind to say something like that?

 

[Peterlag]

All I did was to show what Apostle Paul revealed about the difference between the two types of 'walks', and from Apostle John of what the 'believer' is to do when they slip up and do future sin based on the works of the flesh.

So you think all that is ME SAYING "how to walk by the flesh", "Or walk by yourself"???

What kind of twisted thinking is in your mind to say something like that?

My brain is not twisted. I get a sense you were taught to walk by the spirit means to follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh. Religious people don't follow after the spirit, but rather they follow after their flesh and call it spiritual. The religious folks lead with their flesh and call it Christian. The church folks clean up their flesh by making themselves nice. Then they say this is Christian because we are being nice like the way Jesus was.

 

[Arthur81]

Yeah, Romans 1:18-32 is especially calling out the sins involving homosexual behavior and idol worship, including worship of things God created.

Being a heterosexual act or a homosexual act are both defined as sin because of the nature of the homosexual act as well as the nature of the heterosexual act. Since the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible have no equivalent word for homosexual or heterosexual, the exact nature of the act being condemned must be determined. It is about conduct, acts, NOT labels.

 

[Ziggy]

Lev 18:8
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Deu 22:30
A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.
Deu 27:20
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

1Co 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2Co 2:1
But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2Co 2:2
For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
2Co 2:3
And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
2Co 2:4
For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2Co 2:5
But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
2Co 2:6
Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Co 2:7
So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8
Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
2Co 2:9
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co 2:10
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
2Co 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

So here is a man that broke the law. But the crime that was committed that Paul touches upon isn't just the act itself. It's also the grief that he brought upon others. By throwing him out of the church it brought everyone sorrow instead of joy.
The man saw the sorrow and grief he caused among his friends and he repented, and they forgave him.

So here is the works of the law: Throw him out and leave him out.
Here is the work of Grace and faith in the law: Throw him out, show him his sin, repent, be reconciled, and forgive and return.

Under the law of Moses there was no way for mercy. There was no place for forgiveness.
So what changed?

Jos 24:19
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20
If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21
And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23
Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24
And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Jos 24:25
So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Heb 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

It doesn't mean that what the man did was now ok to do. Because doing things that cause grief and sorrow in the church is the greater sin than the act itself. But he did need to know his sin and the grief and sorrow he caused. Repent and be forgiven and allowed back in.
Where there once was no mercy, there is now mercy and forgiveness.
Just don't abuse it. Because God is not mocked. And you will be held accountable.

Just an observation.
Hugs

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Being a heterosexual act or a homosexual act are both defined as sin because of the nature of the homosexual act as well as the nature of the heterosexual act. Since the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible have no equivalent word for homosexual or heterosexual, the exact nature of the act being condemned must be determined. It is about conduct, acts, NOT labels.

Er... no... God's Word clearly condemns ALL things homosexual and does NOT condemn heterosexuals if they are married.

 

[Davy]

My brain is not twisted.

You are in a state of 'confusion'. It's not about any problem with your brain. It's about what you 'choose' to follow. And so far, you choose doctrines of men instead of actually staying with what God's written Word says on the matter. And I am being totally honest with you.

Now you can 'choose' to leave that confusion easily; simply quit listening to those men you are listening to, and instead listen to God 'directly' in His Word through His Son Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

 

[Davy]

Being a heterosexual act or a homosexual act are both defined as sin because of the nature of the homosexual act as well as the nature of the heterosexual act. Since the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible have no equivalent word for homosexual or heterosexual, the exact nature of the act being condemned must be determined. It is about conduct, acts, NOT labels.

Uh... the word heterosexual means natural intercourse between a male and female. That only is a sin when it is outside a marriage. When God told a married couple (man and woman) to be 'fruitful and multiply', heterosexual intercourse is what that is about.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

When God told a married couple (man and woman) to be 'fruitful and multiply',

Yeah, he wasn't saying quit being normal and become "fruity!"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. Everything that is not specifically annulled by name in the New Covenant?

2. All that is called "Moral" law which is the Ten Commandments PLUS what is added to the Ten such as in the Larger Westminster Catechism?

3. All the Old Covenant laws for they come from God?

4. No Old Covenant law for all was abolished and annulled?

5. Only the everlasting Law of God existing prior to the Old Covenant, which is also found contained in the Old Covenant, and continuing by direct command from Jesus in the New Covenant?

Which do you believe and on what scriptures do you base your belief?

#4. The old has been fulfilled and done away with. We now obey the commands as set forth in the New. The old had 613 commands, the new 1008 according to some.

 

[Arthur81]

Er... no... God's Word clearly condemns ALL things homosexual and does NOT condemn heterosexuals if they are married.

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul." (1Sam 18:1 ASV)

The Hebrew behind the words "was knit" was used with females three times in the OT, this time with Jonathan and two times with physical females. The Hebrew behind "was knit" with femine modifier here in 1 Sam 18:1 is NEVER used in the context with physical males.

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: Very pleasant hast thou been unto me: Thy love to me was wonderful, Passing the love of women." (2Sam 1:26 ASV)

It does NOT say love of wife or wives. The wording is quite clear and there is no way around it.

There is no way to get around the fact that there was a homoerotic dimension to the love of Jonathan for David, and if it were merely an unexpressed desire, how would David have known it? In addition, if the thing desired is sinful, then the desire itself is sinful.

 

[Ziggy]

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul." (1Sam 18:1 ASV)

The Hebrew behind the words "was knit" was used with females three times in the OT, this time with Jonathan and two times with physical females. The Hebrew behind "was knit" with femine modifier here in 1 Sam 18:1 is NEVER used in the context with physical males.

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: Very pleasant hast thou been unto me: Thy love to me was wonderful, Passing the love of women." (2Sam 1:26 ASV)

It does NOT say love of wife or wives. The wording is quite clear and there is no way around it.

There is no way to get around the fact that there was a homoerotic dimension to the love of Jonathan for David, and if it were merely an unexpressed desire, how would David have known it? In addition, if the thing desired is sinful, then the desire itself is sinful.

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

I can see where one could see a physical relationship between the two. But I think it's deeper than that. It's soul love, not body love.
Not lustful, but pure.

No greater love... how many times did Jonathan plead for David's life to Saul?
Jonathan was the only thing standing between Saul's hate for David and David's life.
Passing the love of women. I don't see this as sexual, I see this as deeper than bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.
This was soul of my soul.

I see this relationship the same as I would of Jesus and the Father. So close you can't divide the two.

That's my opinion.
Hugs