What required for going to Heaven?

[shturt678]

The passage refers to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. As far as "no one", these are the only beings that are specifically said to be tormented forever.

Thank you for your caring!

Rev.19:20 & 20:10 The former are not "beings," however are personifications of spiritual potencies where the imagery accords with Dan.7:11b. In reality their adherents, who are not just abstractions but actual concrete persons, whose destruction is here presented in the symbolism of the slaughter, land in actuality in the lake of fire.



I have already spoken to this argument, as I said, on another thread. In it I said that the doctrine you espouse depends upon association. The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. They are eternal beings. Mankind is not, as the soul of man can die, be destroyed, perish. By assumption, you are concluding that the lake of fire has the same effect on humans as it does on eternal beings. But man was denied access to the tree of life..."lest he should reach out his hand, take and eat of it, and live forever" (Gen.3:22).

I understand perfectly that torment is emotional and happens at the soul level. I even made reference to it. However, in regards to the phrase 'eternal punishment', the two words together speak of the duration of the punishment. However, they do not speak of the nature of the punishment. Math.25:46 does not mention the nature of the punishment. However, Jesus did speak of it in other places with words such as death, die, perish, destroy. So lets put these together with eternal.....eternal death. If the nature of the punishment is to be put to death, and the duration of this is forever, then it would be correct to call it an eternal punishment. Again, there are assumptions being made from Math.25:46 based on pre conceived conclusions. If one did not already believe in everlasting conscious torment, one would not conclude it just from the two words; "eternal punishment". This conclusion therefore is called circular reasoning.

Your last statement that we will live forever after we die once, is ignoring two facts. The first one is that Jesus said ..."he who lives and believes in Me will never die" (John11:26). This refers to the soul. The soul of the believer will never die. The other fact is that Paul told the Corinthians that " we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed". (1Cor.15:51). conclusion: not all humans will experience physical death and no believer will experience soul death. This is my point all along. In the first death, the body dies but not the soul. This is the case with all men. In repeating this, you are not proving anything contrary to what I have been already saying.

But as for John 6:50,51, I have shown that Jesus gave two possible fates. The one fate is to live forever. The other is to die. He could not have been referring to mere physical death in that passage, as everyone He was speaking to actually did die physically. In that passage He was giving two differing fates, not two that overlapped with one another. He said that if one were to eat of His flesh he would live forever and NOT die. Did you even read the passage? It is about duration of life, not location of life. By comparison, living forever must be something other than dying, and dying must be something other than living forever. But you disagree with Jesus in saying that everyone will live forever, some in glory and some in torment. Where does this leave John 6:50,51?

Old Jack's view

 

[williemac]

The passage refers to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. As far as "no one", these are the only beings that are specifically said to be tormented forever.

Thank you for your caring!

Rev.19:20 & 20:10 The former are not "beings," however are personifications of spiritual potencies where the imagery accords with Dan.7:11b. In reality their adherents, who are not just abstractions but actual concrete persons, whose destruction is here presented in the symbolism of the slaughter, land in actuality in the lake of fire.



Old Jack's view

Using clever words and intelligent sounding descriptions has no effect on what the scripture says, namely that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Call them what you wish, but these are not human "beings" who are descendants of Adam. As well, you have not proven that those born of Adam will automatically live forever, as God cut he and Eve off from access to the tree of life lest they eat of it and live forever (Gen.3:22). Therefore it is quite reasonable to consider that the lake of fire has a different effect on humans than on they whom it was created for. The difference being that the one group will live forever in torment and the other will not live forever but will die, which cannot be the same thing as living forever (John 6:50,51). cheers.

 

[shturt678]

Using clever words and intelligent sounding descriptions has no effect on what the scripture says, namely that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Call them what you wish, but these are not human "beings" who are descendants of Adam. As well, you have not proven that those born of Adam will automatically live forever, as God cut he and Eve off from access to the tree of life lest they eat of it and live forever (Gen.3:22). Therefore it is quite reasonable to consider that the lake of fire has a different effect on humans than on they whom it was created for. The difference being that the one group will live forever in torment and the other will not live forever but will die, which cannot be the same thing as living forever (John 6:50,51). cheers.

Thank you for your response!

I'm not successfully refuted too often on these threads, however relooking over my post, I have to agree with you, ie, been watching the boxer Clay too much long ago dazzling them with footwork - thank you again!

Going back before Clay, eg, Jn.5:28, 29 shows that not one soul will die die, ie, all will be resurrected. Construe with Rev.20:4, 5 firms this up. I guess we could even bring aboard ICor.15:50-53 regarding the immortality of the soul.

Once that one is conceived in the womb, immortal forever and ever. One cannot even party out 24/7 whether in the Church or as a pagan then just die, ie, have to pay the consequences forever and ever to think about it.

Old Jack not partying in the least, ie, no 24/7 Christian living the here and now. The Cross is too serious my brother.

 

[williemac]

Thank you for your response!

I'm not successfully refuted too often on these threads, however relooking over my post, I have to agree with you, ie, been watching the boxer Clay too much long ago dazzling them with footwork - thank you again!

Going back before Clay, eg, Jn.5:28, 29 shows that not one soul will die die, ie, all will be resurrected. Construe with Rev.20:4, 5 firms this up. I guess we could even bring aboard ICor.15:50-53 regarding the immortality of the soul.

Once that one is conceived in the womb, immortal forever and ever. One cannot even party out 24/7 whether in the Church or as a pagan then just die, ie, have to pay the consequences forever and ever to think about it.

Old Jack not partying in the least, ie, no 24/7 Christian living the here and now. The Cross is too serious my brother.

1Cor.15:50-53 pertains to those who have been redeemed. It is not intended to include those who have not. In vs. 22, Paul says.." For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive". Unless you think that all humans are automatically in Christ, I suggest you reconsider your use of this context to prove the immortality of all human souls. In fact, if you read carefully enough, the change that Paul was referring to in that passage was in reference to the body, not the soul (v.42-44). If you recall my mention of Isaiah 66:24, ..." And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me"....a corpse is a dead body, not the kind that Paul speaks about in 1Cor.15. Which would mean that these corpses are not participating in the experience of 1Cor.15:52.

As well, Jesus in Math.10:28, advised to not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. In the first place, if the soul is immortal, why wuould He bother to use that reasoning? In the second place, if the soul is immortal and cannot be killed, then God cannot kill it. Therefore according to Jesus, we should not fear God. Do you really want to go there?

 

[StanJ]

The passage refers to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. As far as "no one", these are the only beings that are specifically said to be tormented forever. I have already spoken to this argument, as I said, on another thread. In it I said that the doctrine you espouse depends upon association. The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. They are eternal beings. Mankind is not, as the soul of man can die, be destroyed, perish. By assumption, you are concluding that the lake of fire has the same effect on humans as it does on eternal beings. But man was denied access to the tree of life..."lest he should reach out his hand, take and eat of it, and live forever" (Gen.3:22).

I understand perfectly that torment is emotional and happens at the soul level. I even made reference to it. However, in regards to the phrase 'eternal punishment', the two words together speak of the duration of the punishment. However, they do not speak of the nature of the punishment. Math.25:46 does not mention the nature of the punishment. However, Jesus did speak of it in other places with words such as death, die, perish, destroy. So lets put these together with eternal.....eternal death. If the nature of the punishment is to be put to death, and the duration of this is forever, then it would be correct to call it an eternal punishment. Again, there are assumptions being made from Math.25:46 based on pre conceived conclusions. If one did not already believe in everlasting conscious torment, one would not conclude it just from the two words; "eternal punishment". This conclusion therefore is called circular reasoning.

Your last statement that we will live forever after we die once, is ignoring two facts. The first one is that Jesus said ..."he who lives and believes in Me will never die" (John11:26). This refers to the soul. The soul of the believer will never die. The other fact is that Paul told the Corinthians that " we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed". (1Cor.15:51). conclusion: not all humans will experience physical death and no believer will experience soul death. This is my point all along. In the first death, the body dies but not the soul. This is the case with all men. In repeating this, you are not proving anything contrary to what I have been already saying.

But as for John 6:50,51, I have shown that Jesus gave two possible fates. The one fate is to live forever. The other is to die. He could not have been referring to mere physical death in that passage, as everyone He was speaking to actually did die physically. In that passage He was giving two differing fates, not two that overlapped with one another. He said that if one were to eat of His flesh he would live forever and NOT die. Did you even read the passage? It is about duration of life, not location of life. By comparison, living forever must be something other than dying, and dying must be something other than living forever. But you disagree with Jesus in saying that everyone will live forever, some in glory and some in torment. Where does this leave John 6:50,51?

You have to take everything the Bible says about it and as this is the Revelation of Jesus, His words in Matthew 25:41 confirm that the lake of fire is in no way destroys anything. It is a place of everlasting torment.
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"

Die, ALWAYS refers to physical death as I have stated. I suggest you read v26 IN the context of John 11:23-27. V25 shows Jesus saying;
“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, 26 and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

So I'll ask you the same thing Jesus asked His cousin Martha...DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?
You can't just ignore Heb 9:27 and equivocate on this verse. They all contain the truth, BUT the truth is in BOTH verses. I challenge you to figure that out.

 

[shturt678]

1Cor.15:50-53 pertains to those who have been redeemed. It is not intended to include those who have not. In vs. 22, Paul says.." For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive". Unless you think that all humans are automatically in Christ, I suggest you reconsider your use of this context to prove the immortality of all human souls. In fact, if you read carefully enough, the change that Paul was referring to in that passage was in reference to the body, not the soul (v.42-44). If you recall my mention of Isaiah 66:24, ..." And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me"....a corpse is a dead body, not the kind that Paul speaks about in 1Cor.15. Which would mean that these corpses are not participating in the experience of 1Cor.15:52.

Thank you for your response and caring again!

ICor.11:22, etc. Paul is speaking about those who die - hey, agreeing to agree - great! Those whose bodies are laid in the grave as a result of the process of dying. These bodies remain dead - Paul himself says they are asleep. Whenever this sleeping is mentioned (not "soul" sleep for sure), it refers to the bodies of believers and never to their souls, for these do not sleep thus we have to agree to disagree again.

Thus beside the continuous process of dying Paul places the final single act of bringing the dead bodies back to life. The one is a natural, the other is a spiritual connection. The one is by natural descent from a sinful progenitor who brought death and dying upon us by hsi sin; the other by a spiritual regeneration through faith in the Redeemer who conquered sin and death and brought life and immortality to light by His resurrection of course.

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Yes, it's true, unbelievers as well as believers die so that ww must say, "All men die." But Paul is not instructing the Corinthians in regard to all men, he's speaking only about believers and throughout his discussion does not mention unbelievers from the aspect of the writer which even trumps the context. [/SIZE]



As well, Jesus in Math.10:28, advised to not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. In the first place, if the soul is immortal, why wuould He bother to use that reasoning? In the second place, if the soul is immortal and cannot be killed, then God cannot kill it. Therefore according to Jesus, we should not fear God. Do you really want to go there?

Old Jack

You have to take everything the Bible says about it and as this is the Revelation of Jesus, His words in Matthew 25:41 confirm that the lake of fire is in no way destroys anything. It is a place of everlasting torment.
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"

Die, ALWAYS refers to physical death as I have stated. I suggest you read v26 IN the context of John 11:23-27. V25 shows Jesus saying;
“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, 26 and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

So I'll ask you the same thing Jesus asked His cousin Martha...DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?
You can't just ignore Heb 9:27 and equivocate on this verse. They all contain the truth, BUT the truth is in BOTH verses. I challenge you to figure that out.

One of the few times we agree to agree - great!

Old disagreeing Jack

 

[williemac]

You have to take everything the Bible says about it and as this is the Revelation of Jesus, His words in Matthew 25:41 confirm that the lake of fire is in no way destroys anything. It is a place of everlasting torment.
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"

Die, ALWAYS refers to physical death as I have stated. I suggest you read v26 IN the context of John 11:23-27. V25 shows Jesus saying;
“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, 26 and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

So I'll ask you the same thing Jesus asked His cousin Martha...DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?
You can't just ignore Heb 9:27 and equivocate on this verse. They all contain the truth, BUT the truth is in BOTH verses. I challenge you to figure that out.

You are simply repeating things that people say in order to convince themselves and others that this doctrine of forever human conscious torment is valid. For one, you say that "die always refers to physical death". To which I say, nice try. Where do they come up with this idea? You actually proved this to be wrong in your very next breath. Jesus said whoever lives and believes in Me will never die. But we know this cannot be true if it meant only physical death. All believers have actually died physically from then until now. He said never die. If He meant physically, He was obviously wrong. He meant something else obviously. He was speaking of the soul. So here is one place where 'die' does not apply physically. But then, if this applies to all men including those who don't believe in Him, then He made a pointless promise. In saying that those who believe in Him will never die, I think we can conclude that those who don't believe in Him will in fact die. And since all men are apointed to die physically, believers or non, then Jesus must have been referring to another death; that of the soul. This is about thinking these things through.

As for your mention of Heb.9:27, I just referred to it. It says, after that, the judgment. So then what comes next? Something called the second death. And this is where Jesus said both body and soul would be destroyed (Gehenna). So there comes another place where you are just repeating an opinion , in that you say nothing gets destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Your argument that Gehenna is the place of the first death does not fit the context by which it is used (Math.10:28). He mentions a death where the body dies but not the soul. Then He goes on to say that God can destroy both in Gehenna. How is that the first death? It cannot be the same death where one kills the body but not the soul. If it were, then two opposing things are taking place simultaneously. This is about thinking these things through. Try it. You might surprise yourself .

 

[Everyknee]

I say "No" to the first two and "Yes" to the 3'rd. Why yes to the third? Because we still have to follow the Ten comandments via the Law of Love. Can we love our brother and kill him? Can we love our parents and dishonor them? Can we love the Lord and take His name in vain? No. Not at the same time.

Romans 13:8-11
"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

So... Just because we are saved through the mercy of God doesn't mean we don't follow the commandments anymore. We do follow them, or rather they follow us becuase as receivers of God's love we can now understand the laws and why they were given. With that understanding we will now 'present our bodies to God.'

Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."

 

[Madad21]

NOT DEAD BUT SLEEPING

(Luke 8:52) “They were all “weeping and wailing” at Jairus’s house for his daughter who died. But Jesus said, “Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping”

Knowing that she was dead, they laughed at him. But Jesus simply said, “Child, get up!” And her “spirit returned, and she got up at once” (8:53–55).

( John 11:11).Some time later, Jesus and his disciples were on their way to Lazarus’s home, and Jesus said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him”

The disciples remarked that if he had only fallen asleep he would be all right (11:12).

“Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (11:14).

The nature of death in light of the resurrection is “sleeping.” Both Jesus and the early church seized the metaphor.
Believers never die—they simply fall asleep…yay.

Jesus’ words to Martha “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25–26)

Paul explained to the Thessalonians that they should not grieve for those who had “fallen asleep,” as those grieve “who have no hope” (1 Thess. 4:13 RSV).

Leon Morris
“This is an important distinctive of New Testament Christianity. For the ancient world, death was a horror, the end of everything. People might have the thought of the existence of the “shades” in Hades [the Greek translation of Sheol], but this was no full-blooded form of life, but a dreary and shadowy affair, the end of all living worth the name. The inscriptions on the tombs of antiquity may be impressive in their use of costly materials, but, rich as they are, they are full of hopelessness. By contrast, the roughly scratched inscriptions in the catacombs where Christians were buried abound in hope, the sure and certain hope of resurrection in Christ. The New Testament does not speak of the followers of Jesus as dying; they simply fall asleep. In contrast, Jesus’ death is not called sleep. He underwent the full horror that is death and in doing so transformed death, so that for his followers it is no more than sleep”
([SIZE=8pt]Leon Morris, Reflections on the Gospel of John: Volume 3: The True Vine: John 11–16 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1988), 407[/SIZE])

Early Christians (like ol Jack, hee hee) took comfort in the intermediate state of the departed awaiting the resurrection. Jesus called it Paradise.

 

[williemac]

“Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (11:14).

The nature of death in light of the resurrection is “sleeping.” Both Jesus and the early church seized the metaphor.
Believers never die—they simply fall asleep…yay.

Jesus’ words to Martha “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25–26)

Thanks for chiming in. You conclude that believers never die but merely fall asleep. If so, then why did you quote Jesus as saying Lazarus is dead? The metaphor is just that; a metaphor. As I have already agreed, the believer will die physically only. The soul of the believer will never die. This is how John 11:25,26 makes sense.
Being dead physically is what "falling asleep" is a metaphor for. Think about this. When you are asleep at night are you totally out? No. You dream. Your mind is still active, in particular, your subconscious. It is only the body that is asleep. It is not conscious. This is therefore a good metaphor of the first death, where the body dies but not the soul. But in no way can it be a metaphor for the second death. In that death, both body and soul are "asleep"....dead. Good thing we will not experience this second death, as Jesus has promised we will never die. As I explained earlier, this "never die" can only be referring to the soul, as believers die physically all the time. And by process of elimination, the promise is only relevant by way of comparison to those who's souls will in fact die. If no soul of any man will die, then why would Jesus make the point that believers will never die? These are questions for Bro. Stan.

I say "No" to the first two and "Yes" to the 3'rd. Why yes to the third? Because we still have to follow the Ten comandments via the Law of Love. Can we love our brother and kill him? Can we love our parents and dishonor them? Can we love the Lord and take His name in vain? No. Not at the same time.

Romans 13:8-11
"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

So... Just because we are saved through the mercy of God doesn't mean we don't follow the commandments anymore. We do follow them, or rather they follow us becuase as receivers of God's love we can now understand the laws and why they were given. With that understanding we will now 'present our bodies to God.'

Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."

The difference between old testament and new covenant commandments is in the reasons why they are to be followed. The commandments in this present covenant are not for the purpose of justifying anyone for life. It is threads like this one that reveal just how many do not get the difference. Look back far enough in the posts and see what I mean. Justification by faith is exaclty what it sounds like. Our behavior is after the fact.

I am reminded of one of the temptations given to Jesus...." if you are the Son of God, throw yourself down...." Did He have to do anything to prove His identity? No. Neither did He have to do anything to maintain it. But Christians give each other this same challenge in so many words frequently. " If you are really a believer, then prove it"..... God does not require nor ask for this proof. He knows the heart. The new birth is not given by mistake. God cannot be fooled. As well, the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee. That will not occur if the heart is not genuine.

James may have asked his readers to prove themselves to him, but he never said their works qualified them for life. He simply had examined some of them and saw a deficiency in their love toward one another. If they didn't really have faith, then they were not born again. Then they were counterfiet Christians, not having the fruit of the spirit. If that was the case, then works would not have solved anything. What would have been lacking is faith. Dead faith is no faith. It is always about faith. This is what is frequently under attack; faith. Faith exalts God.

Fruit happens. It's almost impossible to stop fruit from happening. Its just a matter of how much we bear...some 100, some 60, some 30 (and so on) (Math.13:23). In the case of James, he may well have merely been exhorting them towards better fruit. We could all use such prodding from time to time. But to hang salvation on it is just plain bad teaching at best. Some are in that business. Blessings in Christ.

 

[shturt678]

NOT DEAD BUT SLEEPING

(Luke 8:52) “They were all “weeping and wailing” at Jairus’s house for his daughter who died. But Jesus said, “Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping”

Knowing that she was dead, they laughed at him. But Jesus simply said, “Child, get up!” And her “spirit returned, and she got up at once” (8:53–55).

( John 11:11).Some time later, Jesus and his disciples were on their way to Lazarus’s home, and Jesus said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him”

The disciples remarked that if he had only fallen asleep he would be all right (11:12).

“Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (11:14).

The nature of death in light of the resurrection is “sleeping.” Both Jesus and the early church seized the metaphor.
Believers never die—they simply fall asleep…yay.

Jesus’ words to Martha “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25–26)

Paul explained to the Thessalonians that they should not grieve for those who had “fallen asleep,” as those grieve “who have no hope” (1 Thess. 4:13 RSV).

Leon Morris
“This is an important distinctive of New Testament Christianity. For the ancient world, death was a horror, the end of everything. People might have the thought of the existence of the “shades” in Hades [the Greek translation of Sheol], but this was no full-blooded form of life, but a dreary and shadowy affair, the end of all living worth the name. The inscriptions on the tombs of antiquity may be impressive in their use of costly materials, but, rich as they are, they are full of hopelessness. By contrast, the roughly scratched inscriptions in the catacombs where Christians were buried abound in hope, the sure and certain hope of resurrection in Christ. The New Testament does not speak of the followers of Jesus as dying; they simply fall asleep. In contrast, Jesus’ death is not called sleep. He underwent the full horror that is death and in doing so transformed death, so that for his followers it is no more than sleep”
([SIZE=8pt]Leon Morris, Reflections on the Gospel of John: Volume 3: The True Vine: John 11–16 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1988), 407[/SIZE])

Early Christians (like ol Jack, hee hee) took comfort in the intermediate state of the departed awaiting the resurrection. Jesus called it Paradise.

Sometimes can't wait to fall asleep, ie, covered my bases as put in for the upper level of hell in case I don't make it thru that narrow gate. Positions full thus others must put in for the next level down (Lk.12:45-48), ie, like an insurance policy.

Old Jack still trying to sqeeze through, btw Mr. Luther did believe in soul sleep where we don't - body sleep!

 

[Madad21]

Thanks for chiming in. You conclude that believers never die but merely fall asleep. If so, then why did you quote Jesus as saying Lazarus is dead? The metaphor is just that; a metaphor. As I have already agreed, the believer will die physically only. The soul of the believer will never die. This is how John 11:25,26 makes sense.
Being dead physically is what "falling asleep" is a metaphor for. Think about this. When you are asleep at night are you totally out? No. You dream. Your mind is still active, in particular, your subconscious. It is only the body that is asleep. It is not conscious. This is therefore a good metaphor of the first death, where the body dies but not the soul. But in no way can it be a metaphor for the second death. In that death, both body and soul are "asleep"....dead. Good thing we will not experience this second death, as Jesus has promised we will never die. As I explained earlier, this "never die" can only be referring to the soul, as believers die physically all the time. And by process of elimination, the promise is only relevant by way of comparison to those who's souls will in fact die. If no soul of any man will die, then why would Jesus make the point that believers will never die? These are questions for Bro. Stan.

(did I quote you willie?)

Meanwhile concerning the "death" of a believer was the point of my post, and to clarify to ANYBODY ELSE

As believers we are not consider ourselves dead if we are in Christ, Christ himself did not refer to the state as being dead, Paul said that we should not even mourn like the pagans do when our brothers pass into sleep (1Thess 4:3)
He said to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8), Jesus told the thief on the cross that he will be with him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
Of course Jesus had to tell the disciples plainly that ol' mate Laz had died because they were confused and didnt understand, at least not until his own Death and visable resurrection and then they all got it and went oooooohhh rrrright thats what he meant.

Death is the result of sin, if we are in Christ we have been freed from the penalty of sin, so to call our first passing death is wrong. If we are free from sin death has no hold over us weather people want to split heirs over the first condition or the last. Its plain and simple that for the believer there is no death.

1 Corinthians 15:55
"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

1

1

 

[williemac]

(did I quote you willie?)

Meanwhile concerning the "death" of a believer was the point of my post, and to clarify to ANYBODY ELSE

As believers we are not consider ourselves dead if we are in Christ, Christ himself did not refer to the state as being dead, Paul said that we should not even mourn like the pagans do when our brothers pass into sleep (1Thess 4:3)
He said to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8), Jesus told the thief on the cross that he will be with him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
Of course Jesus had to tell the disciples plainly that ol' mate Laz had died because they were confused and didnt understand, at least not until his own Death and visable resurrection and then they all got it and went oooooohhh rrrright thats what he meant.

Death is the result of sin, if we are in Christ we have been freed from the penalty of sin, so to call our first passing death is wrong. If we are free from sin death has no hold over us weather people want to split heirs over the first condition or the last. Its plain and simple that for the believer there is no death.

1 Corinthians 15:55
"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

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Amen. Thanks for sharing this truth.

 

[Madad21]

Amen. Thanks for sharing this truth.

You da man Willie *High Five!!*

 

[StanJ]

The passage refers to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. As far as "no one", these are the only beings that are specifically said to be tormented forever. I have already spoken to this argument, as I said, on another thread. In it I said that the doctrine you espouse depends upon association. The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. They are eternal beings. Mankind is not, as the soul of man can die, be destroyed, perish. By assumption, you are concluding that the lake of fire has the same effect on humans as it does on eternal beings. But man was denied access to the tree of life..."lest he should reach out his hand, take and eat of it, and live forever" (Gen.3:22).

I understand perfectly that torment is emotional and happens at the soul level. I even made reference to it. However, in regards to the phrase 'eternal punishment', the two words together speak of the duration of the punishment. However, they do not speak of the nature of the punishment. Math.25:46 does not mention the nature of the punishment. However, Jesus did speak of it in other places with words such as death, die, perish, destroy. So lets put these together with eternal.....eternal death. If the nature of the punishment is to be put to death, and the duration of this is forever, then it would be correct to call it an eternal punishment. Again, there are assumptions being made from Math.25:46 based on pre conceived conclusions. If one did not already believe in everlasting conscious torment, one would not conclude it just from the two words; "eternal punishment". This conclusion therefore is called circular reasoning.

Your last statement that we will live forever after we die once, is ignoring two facts. The first one is that Jesus said ..."he who lives and believes in Me will never die" (John11:26). This refers to the soul. The soul of the believer will never die. The other fact is that Paul told the Corinthians that " we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed". (1Cor.15:51). conclusion: not all humans will experience physical death and no believer will experience soul death. This is my point all along. In the first death, the body dies but not the soul. This is the case with all men. In repeating this, you are not proving anything contrary to what I have been already saying.

But as for John 6:50,51, I have shown that Jesus gave two possible fates. The one fate is to live forever. The other is to die. He could not have been referring to mere physical death in that passage, as everyone He was speaking to actually did die physically. In that passage He was giving two differing fates, not two that overlapped with one another. He said that if one were to eat of His flesh he would live forever and NOT die. Did you even read the passage? It is about duration of life, not location of life. By comparison, living forever must be something other than dying, and dying must be something other than living forever. But you disagree with Jesus in saying that everyone will live forever, some in glory and some in torment. Where does this leave John 6:50,51?

It refers to more than just them IF you read the rest of the chapter. Rev 20:11-15 The second death is again the body, as all these people were raised from their first death.

Yes Jesus did speak of it in other places as I showed you. I believed it the first time I read it my friend so it wasn't pre-conceived. Obviously you refuse to deal with it so you just poo-poo it.
The Greek word here is κόλασις (kolasis) and connotes chastisement, punishment, painful disquietude, torment.
NOTHING about obliteration, because spirit/souls never do. It is why we are different from all other life on earth.

That right, not permanently. He defeated death when He rose, but only effectively when He returns.
I suggest you thoroughly read John 11. Jesus said sleep was indeed death, and if you properly understood His meaning of "The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;", it would help you to understand.
Paul speaks of receiving an imperishable/incorruptible body. The only humans who will not experience physical death will be those believers that are alive when Jesus returns. ALL others will.
Again death ONLY refers to the lack of animation in our physical bodies, NEVER our spirit/soul.

Again I have no idea what point you are trying to make from John 6:50-51...
"But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Are you trying to support transubstantiation here, because that would be another topic for another thread.
As far as what Jesus WAS conveying here, I have partaken of the living bread, on the day I was saved.
I will live forever, just not until Jesus returns...as He said, EVEN THOUGH THEY DIE.
Sadly you seem not to understand what Jesus was teaching here.

 

[Everyknee]

The difference between old testament and new covenant commandments is in the reasons why they are to be followed. The commandments in this present covenant are not for the purpose of justifying anyone for life. It is threads like this one that reveal just how many do not get the difference.

Actually I'm not saying that we are justified by following the law of course we are not. I never said that. Only that we will follow the commandments if the Lord lives in us.

As a believer we will understand and reciprocate the love of God. The simplest most unlearned Christian will know something, the love of God through His mercy poured out on us through Christ crucified. And because of His mercy, we should give our bodies to God by loving God and loving man (IE: following the commandments!) You can't love and break commandments at the same time.


Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."

I am not saying that we can be saved by loving and following the commandments, no. But if you are saved (by faith through the devine election of God) you will love by follow the commandments. You must.

 

[williemac]

Actually I'm not saying that we are justified by following the law of course we are not. I never said that. Only that we will follow the commandments if the Lord lives in us.

As a believer we will understand and reciprocate the love of God. The simplest most unlearned Christian will know something, the love of God through His mercy poured out on us through Christ crucified. And because of His mercy, we should give our bodies to God by loving God and loving man (IE: following the commandments!) You can't love and break commandments at the same time.


Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."

I am not saying that we can be saved by loving and following the commandments, no. But if you are saved (by faith through the devine election of God) you will love by follow the commandments. You must.

The reality is that many unsaved and many actual athiests are also following a moral code that would be rival to that of the ten commandments. Personally, I think there is a trap, unintentional or otherwise, in the mention of the moral conduct in Christians when it is connected to salvation. Note...."when it is connected to salvation". Why is it that when this kind of thread comes along, the question of moral conduct always comes up?
I think this is because the church is under a perpetual and constant bombardment of works/righteousness, works/justification, and works/salvation inuendo, or outright declaration.

The truth is that what we are instructed to do and how we are to behave as believers is not given to cause us to obey God in order to ensure our destiny. What we do is important. Why we do it will reveal the motivation of the heart. Self righteousness, self justification, and self exaltation, can hide themselves behind many reasonable sounding exhortations. Beware.

 

[shturt678]

The reality is that many unsaved and many actual athiests are also following a moral code that would be rival to that of the ten commandments. Personally, I think there is a trap, unintentional or otherwise, in the mention of the moral conduct in Christians when it is connected to salvation. Note...."when it is connected to salvation". Why is it that when this kind of thread comes along, the question of moral conduct always comes up?
I think this is because the church is under a perpetual and constant bombardment of works/righteousness, works/justification, and works/salvation inuendo, or outright declaration.

The truth is that what we are instructed to do and how we are to behave as believers is not given to cause us to obey God in order to ensure our destiny. What we do is important. Why we do it will reveal the motivation of the heart. Self righteousness, self justification, and self exaltation, can hide themselves behind many reasonable sounding exhortations. Beware.

Thank you folks for caring!

I adamantly agreed to disagree with your previous posts as I've been following along, however surprising enough agree to agree with this one for sure - fight this self-righteousness in our Church daily when members show up beyond their so called "1" hour Sunday worship.

Old Jack fighting for the righteousness of the Lord Godman Jesus Christ.

btw once that soul is made in the image of God, never destructs. Awakes somewhere forever and ever.

 

[brakelite]

Far out, where does one begin. From works/faith...commandment keeping/grace....soul sleep/instant heaven....eternal torment/death....this thread is going all over the place.

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring.

Self-righteousness is a requirement for going to heaven in today's time for sure - morality.

The Godman Lord Jesus Christ's righteousness use to be the requirement long ago 24/7 - His morality.

God's agape is the golden thread that sews us together my brothers. Our Lord 'goes all over the place' sewing with His golden thread which is eternal with no annihilation purging self-righteousness.

Old Jack trying to be a part of His quilt agaping that old time religion.