What the Heck is Salvation? And what are we Saved From?

[Ronald David Bruno]

How about "saved" being past tense?

Is that not so simple we should be ashamed not to understand or interpret it as such?

past, present and future tense is all in our physical dimension. The spiritual realm is outside and so it is difficult to grasp that we were transported back in time with Christ dying on the cross and at the same time into the future in heaven seated with Him, our faith finished. In God's mind it is a done deal. In our lives, not yet. My Pastor used to say we are in the "already but not yet state", in a tension between two realms.

 

[ScottA]

... of this verse James 2:19 isn't even close. You can't even be honestly misunderstanding this verse. You are using effort to misinterpret that verse to suit your purpose.

My mistake (my own typo). I was referring to a different verse about works.

As for James 2:19, the demons have decided their own fate, not wanting to come back to God. So, yes, you are correct to make the point, as it does matter that ones belief turns them to God, rather than not. Nonetheless, that is a heart issue, and God is well aware.

 

[ScottA]

... you talk about rightly dividing Scripture?

That verse Matthew 7:2 is speaking of judgment and how we judge others. You are hijacking that verse, changing its meaning and using it to support your own false teaching.

The righteous tenants of the principles of God have many applications. In fact pulling a godly principle out of its original context is completely biblical, and done in scripture many times--even the prophecies of Christ by David. It just needs to fit the circumstances...which is indeed rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[GEN2REV]

How about "saved" being past tense?

Is that not so simple we should be ashamed not to understand or interpret it as such?

Sure if it just means given resurrection life.

Then you stand before God. No guarantees of Heaven.

 

[GEN2REV]

My mistake (my own typo). I was referring to a different verse about works.

As for James 2:19, the demons have decided their own fate, not wanting to come back to God. So, yes, you are correct to make the point, as it does matter that ones belief turns them to God, rather than not. Nonetheless, that is a heart issue, and God is well aware.

The point is belief is not enough to guarantee you heaven.

I believe it will get you resurrected. Then you will be judged for every idle word. Matthew 12:36

 

[GEN2REV]

The righteous tenants of the principles of God have many applications. In fact pulling a godly principle out of its original context is completely biblical, and done in scripture many times--even the prophecies of Christ by David. It just needs to fit the circumstances...which is indeed rightly dividing the word of truth.

Not when that verse is used to justify 'manifesting anything you believe in hard enough' like all the New Age and 'Word of Faith' Charlatans push.

Matthew 7:2 is about judging others. Not about 'believing' as an action verb that someone does in order to get what they want in life.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Re: What the Heck is Salvation?

• Luke 1:68-71 . . Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited and redeemed
His people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant
David, as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, who have been since the world
began, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us.

The Greek word from which is derived "salvation" and "saved" basically speaks of a
rescue operation, i.e. removing desperate folks from danger.

For example: had not the allies liberated the Jews from Hitler's concentration camps,
they'd likely still be there because they were incapable of escaping the Nazis; like an
insect trapped in the confines of a carnivorous plant.

A savior then, can be defined as one who performs rescues. We've all seen examples
of that in lifeguards, firemen, cops, emergency medical services, Coast Guard units,
snow patrols, and mountaineering teams. Rescue workers typically save people in
distress who are facing imminent death and/or grave danger and utterly helpless to do
anything about it.

Re: What are we Saved From?

At least two:

1» The sum of all fears (Rev 20:11-15)

2» Human nature (Rom 7:14-25)

There are other things, for example mortality and the aging process, but in my opinion
the two above are paramount.
_

 

[ScottA]

Sure if it just means given resurrection life.

Then you stand before God. No guarantees of Heaven.

Okay...but I detect something in there that should not be. I mean, salvation is exactly that: resurrected life in Christ, and He in us. Which, if we are raised up with Him, He is our guarantee.

One cannot be partially saved any more than one can be partially pregnant...I speak of being a child of God.

 

[ScottA]

The point is belief is not enough to guarantee you heaven.

I believe it will get you resurrected. Then you will be judged for every idle word. Matthew 12:36

That does not fit the mechanics of who and how all are raised. Which is: "some to everlasting life and some to everlasting condemnation." Only two groups. In which there is no third category for the resurrected "maybe saved, maybe not."

As for the judgement, I will take liberty and say that if one is in Christ, they are judged as righteous already.

 

[ScottA]

Not when that verse is used to justify 'manifesting anything you believe in hard enough' like all the New Age and 'Word of Faith' Charlatans push.

Matthew 7:2 is about judging others. Not about 'believing' as an action verb that someone does in order to get what they want in life.

Like I said, it just needs to [actually] fit the circumstances. But of course, only according to the will of God.

 

[Enoch111]

Then you stand before God. No guarantees of Heaven.

What kind of a nonsensical statement is that? If there a no guarantee of Heaven, then the Gospel means nothing. Fortunately, since the gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23), that in itself is a guarantee of Heaven.

Looks like we have many who either (a) do not understand what Christ has done or (b) choose to pervert the Gospel and create spiritual confusion.

 

[GEN2REV]

Okay...but I detect something in there that should not be. I mean, salvation is exactly that: resurrected life in Christ, and He in us. Which, if we are raised up with Him, He is our guarantee.

One cannot be partially saved any more than one can be partially pregnant...I speak of being a child of God.

Whether you feel it should be in there or not matters very little if Scripture not only includes it, but supports it in multiple places in the Bible; and fleshes it out.

What I'm speaking of is the theme that I continue to reveal from God's Word. That of NOT being guaranteed eternal life in heaven.

It is found here:
1 Chronicles 28:9
and here:
John 15:2
John 15:6
and here:
Matthew 7:21-23
and here:
Acts 3:23
and here:
Matthew 24:13
and here:
2 Peter 2:21

It is all throughout the Bible and it is taught nowhere in the mainstream.

You can deny that it exists, and swear on everything holy that it's not a legitimate doctrine, but you can never, ever bury it within, or remove it from, Scripture. It's there, it's real and it is God's Holy Word.

 

[GEN2REV]

What kind of a nonsensical statement is that? If there a no guarantee of Heaven, then the Gospel means nothing. Fortunately, since the gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23), that in itself is a guarantee of Heaven.

Looks like we have many who either (a) do not understand what Christ has done or (b) choose to pervert the Gospel and create spiritual confusion.

Very simple response to you on this one, Enoch.

Does Matthew 24:13 exist in Scripture? Yes or no?

Does Revelation 14:12 exist in Scripture? Yes or no?

I rest my case.

 

[GEN2REV]

That does not fit the mechanics of who and how all are raised. Which is: "some to everlasting life and some to everlasting condemnation." Only two groups. In which there is no third category for the resurrected "maybe saved, maybe not."

They're both resurrected, Scott. After that resurrection, there are only two outcomes, just as you have stated. So nobody claimed anything about a third category.

They are either resurrected to life,

or they are resurrected to damnation/contempt/shame, etc.

2 possibilities, not 3.

As for the judgement, I will take liberty and say that if one is in Christ, they are judged as righteous already.

Take all the liberty you like, the Bible disagrees with you plainly. Jesus HIMSELF disagrees with you.

John 15:2
John 15:6

 

[Enoch111]

I rest my case.

Not at all. While those verses are there, do you think they contradict the rest of the Gospel? Or is it possible that you have misinterpreted them? Since there are no contradictions in the Bible, it is up to you to reconcile those verse with Gospel truth.

 

[GEN2REV]

While those verses are there, do you think they contradict the rest of the Gospel?

Nope. They sure don't.

is it possible that you have misinterpreted them?

No, because all of Scripture aligns with that interpretation.

All of God's promises have conditions.

Can you see the conditions Jesus is presenting here:
John 14:21-23
Can you see the conditions here:
Matthew 24:13
And here:
John 15:10
How 'bout here:
1 Chronicles 28:9

Since there are no contradictions in the Bible, it is up to you to reconcile those verse with Gospel truth.

I have reconciled them with Scripture as a whole. That is all I am obligated to do.

 

[GEN2REV]

past, present and future tense is all in our physical dimension. The spiritual realm is outside and so it is difficult to grasp that we were transported back in time with Christ dying on the cross and at the same time into the future in heaven seated with Him, our faith finished. In God's mind it is a done deal. In our lives, not yet. My Pastor used to say we are in the "already but not yet state", in a tension between two realms.

Can we live however we like?

If not, why not?

 

[ScottA]

Whether you feel it should be in there or not matters very little if Scripture not only includes it, but supports it in multiple places in the Bible; and fleshes it out.

What I'm speaking of is the theme that I continue to reveal from God's Word. That of NOT being guaranteed eternal life in heaven.

Okay, let's look at them (endure to the end ;) ):

It is found here:
1 Chronicles 28:9

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.​

Rightly dividing the word of truth, this passage only pertains to Israel, which indeed had no guaranty of salvation until they died in their sins and were raised up with Christ, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting condemnation. But this is not the case of those who are raised with Christ who are "alive and remain"...as this was clarified by Paul. So, it doesn't apply to the church age born again.

John 15:2

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
​

Again, Jesus is speaking to Israel who all die in their sins. Meaning it applies to "the dead in Christ" but not to "the living in Christ", who are those born [again] of the spirit of God while living in the world ("alive and remain"). This is what Paul referred to for rightly dividing the word of truth...which is between the living and the dead (in Christ).

John 15:6

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

Again, this also only applies to "the dead in Christ", not "the living in Christ" (not the born again).

and here:
Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’​

This passage is also to Israel, but includes principles of Christ for the church, meaning it is both to the dead and the living in Christ. However, it is only addressing salvation so far as to point out that the works of false teachers and false prophets, etc. are not numbered in the salvation of Christ. Meaning that these were not born [again] of the spirit of God, but of anti-Christ. It is only a salvation issue therefore, for those who do no know Him, but parade about as if they did.

and here:
Acts 3:23

And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

This is to Israel who crucified Christ (not the born again of the church), but the statement is general: that salvation comes through that Prophet, which is Christ alone.

and here:
Matthew 24:13

But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.​

The end of all people who are saved in Christ, either in death as with most of Israel, or in life as with the born again of the church, all come to their end in Christ. For "the dead in Christ" they are raised up with Him having shared in His death...some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt. For "living in Christ" they are raised up with Christ while they are "alive and remain" in the world and share in His resurrected life, which they do in the service of Christ: "to live is Christ."

and here:
2 Peter 2:21

For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
​

This too is specifically regarding false prophets and teachers who are not born of the spirit of God (not saved), but of anti-Christ.

It is all throughout the Bible and it is taught nowhere in the mainstream.

You can deny that it exists, and swear on everything holy that it's not a legitimate doctrine, but you can never, ever bury it within, or remove it from, Scripture. It's there, it's real and it is God's Holy Word.

I do not deny that these passages exist at all--certainly they do. Each of which I have explained by rightly dividing whether they pertain to "the dead in Christ" or "the living in Christ." Which Paul recognized and taught, but more importantly, this dividing line has been appointed to Christ as two separate sheep folds...the one which He has finished, and the one we are now a part of--each coming to Christ so starkly different, it is quite literally the difference between death and life. Thus, not rightly dividing the words regarding each, one would likely be dead wrong on much of what is written.

As for the mainstream church, yes their error is "strong", for they chose even to disregard many passages (just as you said) resulting in doctrinal divisions and false teaching on a wholesale level. This is the error of not rightly dividing the word of truth. Even so, it is quite easy to divide them. I hope that I have helped you to see how.

All the best to you going forward.

 

[ScottA]

They're both resurrected, Scott. After that resurrection, there are only two outcomes, just as you have stated. So nobody claimed anything about a third category.

They are either resurrected to life,

or they are resurrected to damnation/contempt/shame, etc.

2 possibilities, not 3.Take all the liberty you like, the Bible disagrees with you plainly. Jesus HIMSELF disagrees with you.

John 15:2
John 15:6

The third category I was referring to has generally been the argument by many against Salvation being permanent and eternal, that those who are saved might not stay that way. Sorry, if that does not describe your position. But don't blame me...it's not my position either--in fact, I stand against it.

 

[Bob Estey]

There appears to be some confusion as to what actually constitutes salvation, how it is procured, and how, even whether, it needs to be retained. There are threads all over the place discussing various aspects of the gospel from go to woe (perhaps an unfortunate pun) but what prompted this particular thread was a discussion between @mailmandan and @Bible Highlighter in the current Sabbath thread. This discussion is over the topic of sanctification, and whether such a concept is a works based process, or grace based process, whether it's a process at all or a declaration, and whether it's even necessary for salvation. So. Lots to talk about... Lots of questions... And I have to wonder to be honest why it is we are even finding it necessary to discuss this at all so late in Earth's history. But here we are. And we do need to discuss it. I think understanding how we are saved is kinda important don't you?

I don't want this to turn into a debate or argument however. (Fat chance though right). This is too important to go down the I'm right and you're wrong path. Let's try please to keep it as a true Bible study. And I do have another request. Can we please refrain from 29 paragraph posts. I don't want copy paste university PhD dissertations. Let's please keep it civil, respectful, maybe for those of us less enlightened... Enlightening. God bless you all as you contribute.

We are saved from the consequences of our sin. Satan knows how to torture us forever, but Jesus stopped him from doing that.