Whatever happened to the simple Gospel message on salvation and heaven and hell?

[amadeus]

God is an all-consuming fire
the spirit goes back to God, Who gave it

Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed-nego

Ah so! I should have known! Burn off all of the garbage and clean up the good stuff. Is this what hell is about? Of course, it there is nothing good there will be nothing left when burning up is complete.

 

[Mayflower]

Since I teach kids and work with them, when we present the Gospel, I am very careful in explaining to them the consequences for sin. I think with adults, Hell is also scary and God's love and mercy do need to be emphasized as the way out. Yes there is Hell, but... I have heard some fire and brimstone sermons. If there is no Jesus though, that is not good news.

If you tell people there is no Hell, and no consequences for sin though, that to me can be harmful in a Christian's walk. A follower of Christ needs spiritual growth, and that involves looking into a mirror.

 

[amadeus]

hmm. You could tell me where this "hell" as a place of punishment in the afterlife came from i guess

I learned about it as I was growing up as I did about the devil being a red guy with a long pointed tail, horns and a pitchfork. Long before I had ever owned or read a Bible I knew those things. Probably so did every kid in the schoolyard. Where did we get it from?

 

[Triumph1300]

It's a never ending story, all over again.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yup, it does.
I'm not a social worker.
So I can't help him.

i no doubt hold some beliefs right now that will make me cringe in five years, just as the five year old ones do now sometimes. But i'd prefer not to proceed if you feel you are being personally attacked ok, i'm here to challenge your beliefs, not your faith

 

[Triumph1300]

but you also cannot address my Scriptural questions, hmm

Addressing one who doesn't listen is a waste of time.

 

[Triumph1300]

i'm here to challenge your beliefs, not your faith

You are here for entertainment and killing time.

 

[epostle1]

You may be correct, but again how well do we understand what we think we understand? Saved to God and His Way or from man and his ways or perhaps both? Is that what you mean? How do we confirm or do we have confirmed for us that the way we are going is not part of a delusion?

I have a short answer, and a long answer.
Short Answer
We know we are not deluded when truth awakens us to a moral life. Truth nourishes our souls, untruth is rather bland, leading to confusion and bewilderment.

Long Answer

Love for the truth was a favorite theme of Pope John Paul II. “Let us seek the truth about Christ and about his Church!...Let us love the Truth, proclaim the Truth! O Christ, show us the Truth! Be the only Truth for us!” – Agenda for the Third Millennium Pope John Paul II

The Holy Father’s enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;

2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;

3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.

These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn.

Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.

The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life.

We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.

And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.

But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth.

Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy.

She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

By Dr. Donald DeMarco, Professor of Philosophy, St. Jerome’s College at U. of Waterloo, he is married with 5 children.

Taken from The Bread of Life Magazine, July / Aug. Volume 26 Number 3, with minor editing by me.

​

 

[Helen]

First time I went to church in 1980 I lit a cigarette in the foyer.

The Mission we went to in the early days was a holiness mission.
And there I was, high heels, beehive hairdo , loads of make up, mini-skirt.
And the ladies all had drab long dresses, in greys and blues, browns and black..and they all wore hats. !!! LOL

I did get a visit from one of the pastors leading ladies..who very nicely told me not to wear bright colours, lengthen my skirt, and lose the make-up and hairdo. And I did for about 5 years....then when my sister in law gave me perfume for Christmas and I said "No thank you, Im a Christian now."
She said, well if dressing like that and not being allowed to wear makeup or perfume ....then keep your Christianity, I don't want it."

Needless to say...
I got the message...outward appearance does not equal= More Holy

 

[bbyrd009]

How do we turn up the thermostat for you?

or you could address the points up above this quote. Buried here, i'll reply to alerts manana g'night guys

 

[Helen]

Exactly. I just called him out on all his flippancy and nonsense. He claims that "hell" is not in Scripture, but he is happy to reference the heretical Gospel of Thomas in these discussions.

bbyrd009 can speak for himself..and will I am sure...this thread has moved on since I was last on here...and I haven't read the posts since this quote above.

Where he is coming from is the different words used for "hell"....and none are the 'hell' that gets preach over the pulpit today.

The word "gehenna", which is not a Greek word, but the Greek version of the Hebrew name "Hinnom" the perpetually burning trash dump in a small valley below the walls of Jerusalem.
Christ always uses the term as an analogy.
It is difficult to make the case that he uses it to refer to an aspect of the afterlife.
Christ refers to the burning trash heap in that sermon in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29, and Matthew 5:30,

All the different means of what we just say 'hell' for , is very interesting to study.
If a person really is interested in studying the original words and their true meanings.
Which those he was preaching to would have understood at the time.

 

[Enoch111]

The word "gehenna", which is not a Greek word, but the Greek version of the Hebrew name "Hinnom" the perpetually burning trash dump in a small valley below the walls of Jerusalem. Christ always uses the term as an analogy.

You really and sincerely believe that Jesus was talking about sinners going to a garbage dump for their sins? There's no "analogy" in Mark 9.

First of all, Geenna is indeed a Greek word transliterated from Chaldee (and is found in the Greek text), and although it may have originally alluded to the valley of Hinnom, the Lord Jesus Christ was teaching on Hell -- not a garbage dump. That kind of interpretation is dishonest, and suitable for cultists, but not for Christians.

Mark 9:43-48
Καὶ ἐὰν σκανδαλίζῃ σε ἡ χείρ σου ἀπόκοψον αὐτήν· καλόν σοι ἐστίν κυλλὸν εἰς τὴν ζωὴν εἰσελθεῖν ἢ τὰς δύο χεῖρας ἔχοντα ἀπελθεῖν εἰς τὴν γέενναν [Gehenna] εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον: οπου ο σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτα και το πυρ ου σβεννυται.
καὶ ἐὰν ὁ πούς σου σκανδαλίζῃ σε ἀπόκοψον αὐτόν· καλόν ἐστίν σοι εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν ζωὴν χωλὸν ἢ τοὺς δύο πόδας ἔχοντα βληθῆναι εἰς τὴν γέενναν [Gehenna] εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον, οπου ο σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτα και το πυρ ου σβεννυται.
καὶ ἐὰν ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου σκανδαλίζῃ σε ἔκβαλε αὐτόν· καλόν σοι ἐστιν μονόφθαλμον εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἢ δύο ὀφθαλμοὺς ἔχοντα βληθῆναι εἰς τὴν γέενναν [Gehenna] τοῦ πυρὸς, ὅπου ὁ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτᾷ καὶ τὸ πῦρ οὐ σβέννυται.

Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Short Definition: Gehenna
Definition: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1067: γηννα
γηννα (others would accent γηννα, deriving it through the Chaldee. In Mark 9:45
Gehenna, the name of a valley on the south and east of Jerusalem ...and then this name was transferred to that place in Hades where the wicked after death will suffer punishment: Matthew 5:22, 29;Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5; Mark 9:43, 45; James 3:6;

 

[Triumph1300]

I got the message...outward appearance

Are there any Hutterites or Mennonites in your area?

I think they base it on "Avoiding the appearance of evil".

 

[Helen]

Are there any Hutterites or Mennonites in your area?

I think they base it on "Avoiding the appearance of evil".

Yes, Hutterites and Mennonites here....but this little group back there in England were not quite that austere! :) LOL
But the idea is held..at a one time I held it,,,that the more 'unworldly' we were = the more spirituality we had. .

 

[Triumph1300]

When I look around in churches these days I am amazed
how some women dare to come to church the way they look.
Maybe I'm old fashion.

 

[amadeus]

I have a short answer, and a long answer.
Short Answer
We know we are not deluded when truth awakens us to a moral life. Truth nourishes our souls, untruth is rather bland, leading to confusion and bewilderment.

The delusion comes when a person fails to love the truth or loses that love. I believe that Jesus is the Truth, but how well does each of us know Him? If we are growing as we should be growing we will be coming to know Him better each day as we know Him better our love should refocus on our improved vision. If we are not growing, I believe that eventually we will lose sight of Him and along with the vision we will lose the love. Then comes the delusion: II Thess 2:10-12.

Long Answer

Love for the truth was a favorite theme of Pope John Paul II. “Let us seek the truth about Christ and about his Church!...Let us love the Truth, proclaim the Truth! O Christ, show us the Truth! Be the only Truth for us!” – Agenda for the Third Millennium Pope John Paul II

The Holy Father’s enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;

2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;

3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.

These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn.

Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.

The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life.

We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.

And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.

But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth.

Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy.

She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

By Dr. Donald DeMarco, Professor of Philosophy, St. Jerome’s College at U. of Waterloo, he is married with 5 children.

Taken from The Bread of Life Magazine, July / Aug. Volume 26 Number 3, with minor editing by me.

Some of the above may be correct, but too much detail for me to go through carefully so I only skimmed it. Loving truth is simply loving Jesus, but the growth in our vision of Him and our love for Him is essential.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

I did not that the article calls the Church the guardian of truth, but I would say rather that if there is a Guardian Truth it would be the Holy Spirit in us so long as a person is not quenching the Spirit.

 

[Nancy]

I rushed into the kitchen and I said to my husband.
" I've got it!"
He said.." You've got what?"
I said" I don't know, but I can see it now..."

He said..." You can see what."
Then I said..." I don't know, but I can see the light! I can see it all now, God sent Jesus to bridge the great gap between us and God"

Six weeks later he too gave his life to the Lord.
He did ask the Pastor from the Mission hall.
"Is it still okay if I have a pint now and again? And is it okay if I still play the horses...if I give some to your church?"

Obviously the old pastor said No. And at that time in Dave's life it would have been fatal.
Obviously he never gambled again on cards or horses...but occasionally he will take a glass of wine if we are out for a meal with someone. :)[/QUOTE]

 

[Nancy]

Oh wow Helen, you sound exactly like I did when it "hit me"...I was walking around the house saying over and over with such REAL joy in the Lord- "I see!, I see now, I see...!!!! I could not stop saying those very words!
Just unknowable until and unless one experiences it themselves, dang. Lol

 

[bbyrd009]

If you tell people there is no Hell, and no consequences for sin though, that to me can be harmful in a Christian's walk. A follower of Christ needs spiritual growth, and that involves looking into a mirror.

i certainly agree with most of that, i did not mean to say anything about no consequences for sin, i said Gehenna is on Erets. And as shocking as this might read, there is no hell, or at least not in the Bible. Tartarus is as close as we get (another Greek god btw) and ppl do not go there anyway. But understand that i believe the wages of sin is still death, and you reap what you sow, etc. The Rich Man is in fire, and he seeks a drop of "water" for his "tongue?"

Our concept of hell came from scribes, and subsists on blind willfulness imo
bc "believers" need a place for others to go, to legitimize their corrupted perspective of heaven as a place

all go to the same place
the dead know nothing
"you and your sons will be here with me"

now i'm not claiming to know what we will become, we could all be in a furnace, figuratively speaking, or it could be sunshine/lollipops/rainbows for everyone, but the unrebounded ("unrepentant" to...most) are just miserable anyway, maybe bc their "tongue" (fire) does not allow them to operate right, i dunno. No one knows. Anyone who tells you they know is lying, and also deceitful, whether they mean to be or not. satan appears as an angel of light. i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock. "You and your sons will be here with me"

 

[bbyrd009]

I learned about it as I was growing up as I did about the devil being a red guy with a long pointed tail, horns and a pitchfork. Long before I had ever owned or read a Bible I knew those things. Probably so did every kid in the schoolyard. Where did we get it from?

the whole developed world pretty much hears the same tired boogeyman story i guess, ya. Google "a red guy with a long pointed tail, horns and a pitchfork" imo, that will get one to the truth right quick. It's Norse/Angle mythology, the closest thing the White, Engyshe scribes had i guess.