Whats That?

[01CobraVortech]

Well, roadster, I know the rapture stuff to be unscriptural, I do not believe God has abandoned Israel and I am of Hebrew ancestry. If you want to believe the lie be my guest. I WILL NOT! There are those that believed the earth was flat also, and likely wrote about it in ancient documents.

To each there own. In the end, someone will be right and someone will be wrong. And we all have a final exam scheduled before the Lord. And there is certainly a crown waiting for all those who are waiting for his glorious coming at the "rapture." So to me, its an important part of the Bible to understand. Btw, comparing the doctrine of the "rapture" to whether the physical properties of the earth had any curvature is hardly the same comparison.

 

[jerryjohnson]

To each there own. In the end, someone will be right and someone will be wrong. And we all have a final exam scheduled before the Lord. And there is certainly a crown waiting for all those who are waiting for his glorious coming at the "rapture." So to me, its an important part of the Bible to understand. Btw, comparing the doctrine of the "rapture" to whether the physical properties of the earth had any curvature is hardly the same comparison.

They are just both foolish!

I'm ready to stand before God!

 

[01CobraVortech]

They are just both foolish!

I'm ready to stand before God!

Its foolish because you don't understand the physics behind it in our 10 dimensional world or its foolish because you don't believe its scripturally supportable?

 

[jerryjohnson]

Its foolish because you don't understand the physics behind it in our 10 dimensional world or its foolish because you don't believe its scripturally supportable?

It is not supported by Scripture! I have read all the so called Scriptural support so don't bother repeating it. We will never agree. Have a day!

 

[JarBreaker]

Its foolish

Hey look!


http://www.technicalpark.com/img_shopping/mini-merry-go-round.jpg

 

[HammerStone]

Let's not abuse the privilege to post pictures here, thanks.

 

[gumby]

Speak for yourself. The early Church had folks that understood and believed the "rapture" doctrine and plenty of Biblical teachers today like Chuck Missler, Grant Jeffrey, Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey, etc. have more than stated the case in many of their publications. You and others can't make it fit as you put it because you may be intellectually dishonest or have other reasons to have such a hostile attitude towards this doctrine. Its interesting to note that the Christians who tend to call the "rapture" doctrine a lie, also tend to be the very same Christians that believe that God has abandoned Israel and who also tend to have resentment towards Israel and the Jews. You can call it a lie all you want, but this doctrine was believed 1600 years ago by Christians. How many believed is impossible to know, but it was understood and believed by Christians. The manuscript of Ephraim of Syria more than adequately supports the claim.

Well theres a problem with your post you see now you have judged me falsly of not supporting isriel or the jewish people. If jewish people accept jesus (yashua) as there savior they to can be saved and i do indeed support isriel and the work that there doing for christ. And your right though freind the modern day church can fit the false rapture in as a lie and they can teach it but dont you think for one second that god doesnt know about it and the people who placed that lie known as rapture there in the first place.

Im going to outline this whole rapture false doctrine and show to you in scipture where it is false.

Luke 17:33

Luke 17:34

Luke 17:35

Luke 17:36

The one taken goes with antichrist before the seventh trump but the one who stays does the will of our father. Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 10:22

The one who endures to the end will be saved not the one who raptures out of here with antichrist before the 7th trump.

 

[01CobraVortech]

Well theres a problem with your post you see now you have judged me falsly of not supporting isriel or the jewish people. If jewish people accept jesus (yashua) as there savior they to can be saved and i do indeed support isriel and the work that there doing for christ. And your right though freind the modern day church can fit the false rapture in as a lie and they can teach it but dont you think for one second that god doesnt know about it and the people who placed that lie known as rapture there in the first place.

Im going to outline this whole rapture false doctrine and show to you in scipture where it is false.

Luke 17:33

Luke 17:34

Luke 17:35

Luke 17:36

The one taken goes with antichrist before the seventh trump but the one who stays does the will of our father. Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 10:22

The one who endures to the end will be saved not the one who raptures out of here with antichrist before the 7th trump.

You weren't falsely judged. If the shoes fits...well you know the rest. That's your whole argument for dismissing the "rapture"? :lol: The "rapture" is not an event that you even have a say in, in as much as your participation in it is determined based on whether you've received salvation. Its just funny to me hearing other Christians suggest that they will be able to have the following exchange with the Lord, "Hey Lord thanks but no thanks. I'm staying behind during the Tribulation. I'll see you at the finish line Lord. I;m sticking this one out fighting off the AntiChrist" Oh brother. Some Christians do make me laugh. God bless you for making my night.

 

[gumby]

You weren't falsely judged. If the shoes fits...well you know the rest. That's your whole argument for dismissing the "rapture"? :lol: The "rapture" is not an event that you even have a say in, in as much as your participation in it is determined based on whether you've received salvation. Its just funny to me hearing other Christians suggest that they will be able to have the following exchange with the Lord, "Hey Lord thanks but no thanks. I'm staying behind during the Tribulation. I'll see you at the finish line Lord. I;m sticking this one out fighting off the AntiChrist" Oh brother. Some Christians do make me laugh. God bless you for making my night.

To this i say show me one verse in the bible were it says we will be raptured out of here before the 7th trump and yes i do have a say in weather i go or stay you see if im the 1st one taken out of the field before the 7th trump then i end up going with antichrist but if i stay and endure and fight off antichrist like a good child of god should and overcome him with the blood of the lamb paid on the cross then and only then do i defeat antichrist when i overcome him personally. Matter a fact read these scriptures concerming the ones who overcome antichrist. 1st John 5:4, 1st John 4:4, 1st John 2:13, John 16:33, Revelation 3:21, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 2:17.

Now i ask you do you have what it takes to defeat antichrist and his lies when he comes or are you just going to settle for a false pre-trib rapture that occurs before the 7th trump. You see i ask these questions because i know the sciptures have the answers in them you do have the power over antichrist when he comes you have power over him now as well as i do why because jesus paid the blood on the cross so we could have that power over satan that way when he comes we can rebuke him and be over and done with it. Im not going to lie to you freind the viper known as satan is lurking through these troubled times and hes doing evrything he can to work against christ. Understand that he will look, talk, act and even preach scripture like christ......................theres only one problem though hes not christ hes sly and deceiving with his motives but hes not christ. We as beleivers all have a choice to follow antichrist or to follow THE christ.

 

[JarBreaker]

Let's not abuse the privilege to post pictures here, thanks.

Sorry, just illustrating how this topic is just going around and around, no progress / no conclusion.

The one taken goes with antichrist before the seventh trump but the one who stays does the will of our father. Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 10:22

The one who endures to the end will be saved not the one who raptures out of here with antichrist before the 7th trump.

In regards to the Luke verses, the Wheat and tares tells that so plainly, I dont see how anyone can argue against it ... only one thing here ... I dont see ANY rapture happening, be it fake or otherwise.


Matt. 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"


BOTH grow together UNTIL the harvest ( this is NOT the "rapture" but the moment we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, AFTER the trib ) ... but look, FIRST the tares are taken, and SET ASIDE TO BE BURNED, when does this happen ? At the SECOND DEATH, after the 1,000 years, on The Last Great Day.


AFTER the tares are bundled, THEN the wheat is put into His storehouse.

 

[gumby]

Sorry, just illustrating how this topic is just going around and around, no progress / no conclusion.




In regards to the Luke verses, the Wheat and tares tells that so plainly, I dont see how anyone can argue against it ... only one thing here ... I dont see ANY rapture happening, be it fake or otherwise.


Matt. 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"


BOTH grow together UNTIL the harvest ( this is NOT the "rapture" but the moment we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, AFTER the trib ) ... but look, FIRST the tares are taken, and SET ASIDE TO BE BURNED, when does this happen ? At the SECOND DEATH, after the 1,000 years, on The Last Great Day.


AFTER the tares are bundled, THEN the wheat is put into His storehouse.

Very interesting scripture, my one claim has always been against the rapture but still im starting to see if it henders some of gods children that are still learning maybe i should lighten up. Im going to present the scriptures in full context. Matthew 13:24, Matthew 13:25, Matthew 13:26, Matthew 13:27, Matthew 13:28, Matthew 13:29 and Matthew 13:30. The key being in verse 29 that while trying to expose the tares i may very well rip up the wheat. All i can truly say is im going to still teach firmly against the rapture false doctrine but im going to start teaching more concerning the beginers in gods word. To me its not fair at all that they get sucked into this whole rapture myth thats why its so dangerous spiritually is because the inexperienced christian is deceived while the seasoned christian sees right through the lie.

 

[JarBreaker]

The key being in verse 29 that while trying to expose the tares i may very well rip up the wheat.

I'm also starting to think v.29 is saying that if the tares were pulled up before the harvest was ready, there would be no chance for repentance ... being recognized as a tare may have happened to each and every one of us at one time.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well, in Matt 25 or so we are told one is in the field and one is taken. To a rapture person, the one taken would be a good thing, that has to be rapture. In Matt 13 we are told the tares go first. So, is being taken a good thing?

What really concerns me is that what appears clear to some is not clear to others. Why the split on the rapture theory?

I myself have looked at both sides, and the scriptures for both sides. To me, I see both points.

Rapture folk say we "Escape the wrath to come" Looking into that more as that is what I believed proved the Rapture, where does it say "We Escape the wrath to come Because we are not here?" How many examples in scripture do we have of God protecting his own, while still on earth? It has made me think about my belief in the rapture.

There are other scriptures like in Eze.

Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.


Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Psa 55:6 And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest.

Looking at this verse over and over, I just don't see how it applies to a Rapture............. I have 9 other commentaries that don't see it also. Yet, a handful still think that. WHY? The rapture or Harpaz means to snatch suddenly, not fly.
It was translated raptus or something in Latin.

Still, Jesus being Lord is clear to most Christians, why not the Rapture or no rapture Doctrine. If it was that important, then it would have been more clear.

If there is a Rapture, should that change our walk with God, and if no Rapture should that change our walk with God.
I think we should stay the same and stay ready for anything, unlike the virgins that were not prepared with Oil in their lamp.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[HammerStone]

Well I've tried to shift towards that line of thinking in my discussions. If I can get you to examine Scripture and know it regardless of rapture or no rapture, then I feel like that's all I can do. I point out time and time again that I frequently study with and cite an author/scholar who believed very heartily in the rapture. (So much so that he wrote a book on it in the context of Revelation and discussed the subject many, many other times.) In my heart of hearts I feel this guy would have known either way as the signs began to unfold. I don't think people who believe in the rapture should be written off as "unchristian" or "babes in Christ" or anything like that.

The topic is surrounded by much confusion, unfortunately. I think a lot of it comes from these basically foreign terms (rapture, pre-tribulational, post-tribulational, amillennialism, etc.). These terms are very "scientific" in nature using terms we don't see every day and they further come highly charged for those who actually use them. There is even much confusion because I'd say (arbitrary figures for illustration) 75% think pretibulational rapture when they hear the word "rapture" and the other 25% simply think "catching up" without a specific time in mind. When I've made the statement that there is no rapture in the past, I've had messages accuse me of denying the return of the Lord altogether. (I don't know how you could get that from my writings and postings, but I think perhaps it comes from a focus on the buzzword.)

I can only affirmatively answer for myself, but the other component that supercharges the debate is what's at stake. Both rapture believers and opponents feel that something very important is at stake. I, for one, believe that many would-be Christians will be so caught up in the rapture teachings that they'll have neglected to read the Word and know the signs. That's not necessarily passed judgment on believers, but it is a great concern. I think we all think the apostasy is something blatantly obvious - and I do think that for those who are truly Christian - but I would highlight the importance of knowing the Scriptures and what will happen. I worry that many simply take a glance and then resolve "Hey, I don't need to know all of this, I'll be out of here!" If the antichrist pops up first looking a lot like Christ, those are the ones who could be in trouble. We know Satan can look like an angel of light. If Christ has not yet been held in all his glory, Satan will put on a pretty convincing show based on what we see.

Similarly, rapture believers would say that I am in danger of missing the rapture. I'm not sure how that would affect me overall, but I do think in their view I'd either endure and probably be killed in the tribulation or maybe even take part in the delusion. I can understand that from a Christian brotherly or sisterly perspective they want to protect me as well.

I think this is one of the debates within Christianity where it's not about being right for personal gain as it is a genuine concern for brothers and sisters. That doesn't cover the insults and the like, as there will always be those who just like to ruffle feathers.

In regards to your post Brother Mike, I too have seen some of the same things. I cautiously point out that Noah was instructed to build the ark so that his family and the animals would make it through. (He was not removed from the flood and set down afterwards.) In the same spirit Daniel's companions were in the fire with God (I believe Christ) right there with them. (IE: They were not removed and set down outside of the fire to be safe.) Maybe it's just me, but like with Passover as well, there is always a set of instructions based on faith that accompany these events. With this final event, I think that comes to us in the form of the Scriptures.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

 

[01CobraVortech]

In regards to your post Brother Mike, I too have seen some of the same things. I cautiously point out that Noah was instructed to build the ark so that his family and the animals would make it through. (He was not removed from the flood and set down afterwards.) In the same spirit Daniel's companions were in the fire with God (I believe Christ) right there with them. (IE: They were not removed and set down outside of the fire to be safe.) Maybe it's just me, but like with Passover as well, there is always a set of instructions based on faith that accompany these events. With this final event, I think that comes to us in the form of the Scriptures.

HammerStone, the Noah account and the Sodom and Gomorrah accounts are very instructive on what God does before He personally unleashes wrath. He removes the righteous before doing so. It most certainly would not have made any sense for Noah and his family to be raptured, since they still had the responsibility to produce the Messiah through the multiplication of their seed. It would have been rather peculair for God to rapture them, flesh becoming spirit. Then converting them from spirit, sending them all back to earth in flesh after the flood? I believe if God raptured Noah and His family, he would be faced with the rather peculiar situation of having to re-create mankind, which to me would not make any sense at all based on the way God does things in the Bible. While I know you and I will just have to agree to disagree on thsi topic, I don't know for the life of me why there is such ambivalence towards the idea that God would spare believers from the wrath of the Tribulation. The Tribulation appears to be God's attempt to push Israel into a corner, into believing in Jesus Christ, as well as giving earth dwellers a last opportunity at salvation. In the OT, it is prophesied that 2 out of 3 Jews will be killed during this time. God provides instructions on when the Jews are too flee and where to go to for safety. Satan does appear to make an attempt to exterminate the Jews before Jesus returns. And God's full focus during those 7 years sure does appear to be on the Jews. And I certainly do not believe its within satan's power to "rapture" believers in a deceitful scheme. I mean how would that work from a biblical perspective? If a believer has the "rapture" doctrine in their hearts, satan would be given the power to whisk away all "rapture" believers into a compartment of some kind, manufacturing a fake rapture of the church, while those that don't believe in the "rapture" stay behind during the Tribulation? It just doesn't compute in my book, that's all.

 

[Brother Mike]

HammerStone:............ That was pretty awesome reading!!!! Pretty full of understanding and Wisdom.

I have moved from Rapture, to not decided. I can't discount all those that have put time and effort on both sides the fence. They do it because they Love God. My Brothers and Sisters.

However, there is strife, and judgment on both sides. Why? That is the part, I am looking at. That part has to be wrong.

This is to deep for me right now. Some thoughts would help.

Rapture folks use scripture to prove we are escaping. As you stated about Noah though, that does not mean leave Earth.

The Non Rapture folks say that Satan is going to device and kill us. Some say it's our final test.........Well, that is not adding up with a bunch of scripture here.

Now you believe in the fly away doctrine because your afraid.......and baby Christian.

Now your gonna be left behind, and get grind to a pulp because you want to stay.

Hammerstone, you mentioned the example of Noah, yet thought it a possibility to be killed in the tribulation. Yet, we escape the wrath to come. It can't be both. Yet I see this is where Anger is generated on both sides. This has to be where we are missing something.

Your concern is for those that do believe in Rapture, yet not prepared for the events that will take place. That makes sense on both sides. If there is a Rapture, and with wars, earthquakes, and rumor of wars. How much of that takes place before the actual seven year period starts..... In the last days, there will be perilous times.....(2 Ti 3:1) We are closer today, than yesterday. Things are not going to get better. Will those that believe in rapture survive that??

If we remove all the terms as you suggested, I think we will get a more clear picture. Could it be, that the Church is not going to be part of this, and somehow protected? In that with terms getting in the way like Rapture, and Pre-trib, Protected yet on earth?

I don't know...........I really don't, but something that people think is so important, and God not the author of confusion, it really should not be split as it is. That tells me both sides do not have the full picture yet.

Thank you Hammerstone for you insights.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[HammerStone]

Hammerstone, you mentioned the example of Noah, yet thought it a possibility to be killed in the tribulation. Yet, we escape the wrath to come. It can't be both. Yet I see this is where Anger is generated on both sides. This has to be where we are missing something.

No, please don't take me out of context there, I don't want to confuse anyone.

What I meant about the getting killed remark is a hypothetical to the reply of rapture believers. It was simply a statement that I'm not sure what rapture believers think will happen to people like me who don't believe in the rapture if the rapture were to be true. I personally don't believe the great concern for Christians in the great tribulation will be a physical death. I believe it will be spiritual death. In fact, I'm very convinced that Satan will overstep his bounds when he finally kills the two witnesses, because you'll notice that Christ returns very soon thereafter. I apologize if that leads anyone astray because that's not what my remark is related to, it's just a hypothetical side thought. I've heard varied responses to what will happen to someone like me in that scenario.

I focus very heavily on Revelation 13:11 and I do this for a reason. This is what really worries me about the good Christians out there that have gone to church but failed to be taught about prophecy. Maybe they've read the book, but never really opened Revelation, Daniel, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, etc. on their own. If I am correct - and I wouldn't put it out there if I didn't believe it and feel compelled to teach it - we have a beast that looks a lot like a lamb - the Lamb. The Bible warns very harshly about deception and we know from historical Biblical examples that Satan brings his A game to the table. The Bible tells us he can manipulate Scripture, looks like an angel of light, and that he wants to be God.

The Robster, just let me point out that the spirit can carry men and women around without having to rapture them. I've never implied that Noah required a a "rapture" to be saved from the flood. Paul was caught up to the third heaven (II Corinthians 12:2). Ezekiel was carried to the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1). John was taken to the Lord's Day in spirit (Revelation 1:10). Aside from these temporary experiences in the spirit, we have Philip "caught away" (KJV wording - from Greek harpazō aka Latin raptus aka English rapture) in Acts 8:39. Was Philip taken for good to heaven? Nope Acts 8:40 tells us he next appears at Azotus. There are other examples of this as well; there are moments where Christ moves through the crowd and possibly a door/wall and is not caught.

So no, no rapture needed.

Satan certainly doesn't have to physically rapture anyone, but that's another discussion for another day.

 

[01CobraVortech]

Good discussion fellas. I enjoyed reading the analysis of both sides of the argument.

 

[freeman4]

The Rapture, Fact or Fiction?​

​

Who said rapture? Did Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, and Jude say that the Church would be raptured out of the tribulation? They did not! Not one person has ever found a single scripture that says we will be raptured before the tribulation. When scripture conflicts with tradition, which should we believe? ​

Those who hold what is called the "Dispensational" interpretation of prophecy teach that the second coming of Christ will be in two stages: first, the Rapture, His coming for the saints, and then later His coming with the saints. The interval between these two events is generally regarded as seven years (Daniel's 70th week). During this time, according to this view, the Anti-Christ will make a seven year covenant with the Jews in which he will allow them to offer sacrifices in a rebuilt temple at Jerusalem. But then after three and a half years, he will break his covenant and place an Idol (the abomination of desolation) in the holy of holies of the temple. The Jews will refuse to bow, and a great persecution will result--the time of Jacob's trouble. Finally, at the close of the tribulation period (the end of the age), Christ will return in power and great glory, and then He shall send His angels to gather together His elect. ​

There is a big difference between the Rapture and the Resurrection. There are thousands of people who think that the Rapture idea--with driverless cars and crashing airplanes--is nothing but an emotion packed made up story with no Bible basis. But all Christians agree that there will be a resurrection in the future. The sensational display of the terror filled tribulation really has nothing to do with when the resurrection will take place. We are convinced that the Bible teaches that the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation, not before it. ​

There will not be a rapture before the tribulation; the resurrection will be at the end of the trouble. Let us reason together. There is no scripture anywhere that proves that the rapture is first. The note in Scofield's Bible is the biggest offender and has done the most to project the error. ​

Noah was not raptured out of the flood water; he went through the water. God said, "when thou pass through the water, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walk through the fire, thou shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee" (Isa.43:2). Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego saw the fourth man and went through the fire. They were not raptured out. Daniel was not raptured out of the Lion's den; he went through it. God poured out His wrath in Egypt during the plagues but Israel did not suffer from them. Just as God protected His people from His wrath in Egypt, He will also protect His people from His wrath in the end time. God has established a pattern of providing supernatural protection for His people. Jerusalem, there is no question about the brutality and complete overthrow of that city in 70 AD. Why would He change His pattern for the last great tribulation? A mighty supernatural deliverance was wrought by God for protecting all His children in Egypt.​

Matt 24:27-31​

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

1Thes 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be hanged.​

Jesus placed the sign of His second coming "immediately after the tribulation." The central event, "the Son of man coming in the clouds." The appearance of the Son of man is after that tribulation. Only the elect are gathered from the four winds; there being no mention of the wicked. The judgment scene one might expect is left out. The writer's interest is complete on the nearness of the reward of the righteous. You may be sure that He (the Lord) is at hand, at the very door. ​

The believers will be "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." This verse explains where believers will meet the Lord. The place of meeting will be just above the earth--in the clouds, in the air. There is nothing in this verse to indicate that Christ will then turn around and take the church to heaven. Notice that believers will rise to "meet" the Lord. The word that is here translated "meet" is a word that was used in reference to the coming of a king or governor to visit a city. As he approached, the citizens would go out to meet him and then escort him on the last part of his journey into the city. We believe it has precisely that same meaning here. As the Lord descends from heaven, believers will rise "to meet the Lord in the air" (1Thes.4:16-17). ​

But do the scriptures teach that the rapture will be a secret, invisible, and quiet event? Let us look at the main verse on the rapture and see in 1Thes.4:16-17. To us, this verse indicates anything but a quite, secret rapture. Whether we take the "shout," the "voice," and the "trump" in literal sense or as having a figurative meaning; either way, this passage does not convey the idea of a secret and quite event! If anything, it would indicate that the coming of the Lord will be a loud, noisy, open, and wonderous event. Amid the sound of the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout; the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God, there will be the sounds of praise and rejoicing from vast multitudes of saints as they are caught up to meet the Lord! Where is any secrecy here? This is not the description of a hidden and quiet event. Nevertheless, in spite of every indication to the contrary, this verse is constantly used as a text for sermons which describe the rapture as a secret, hidden, and quiet coming of Christ. ​

The scriptures do teach, of course, that Christ will return "as a thief in the night." This means that the time of His coming is unknown. It will come as a complete surprise to those who are not watching for His return. But the use of this term never indicates in any way that the event itself will be secret and quiet.

Leo:

freeman4:

Propheticnewsfortheendtimes Forum

 

[01CobraVortech]

^ Cliff's notes summary: Another conjecture by someone who doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture. Nothing more.