When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because in Matthew 24, that's sunteleia.

No, sunteleia is not the moment in time that brings about the end of the age. That word does not refer to a moment in time but instead a period of time that leads up to "the end" (telos). The end of the age is a short time, but still not only one moment in time. It includes Jesus descending from heaven, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies to immortality, our being caught up to Christ, the destruction of the wicked, and the resurrection of the wicked and being gathered for judgment. The end (telos) comes at the last moment of all those things that occur at the end of the age.

What adjoining verses in a single chapter does it go back and forth between?

The original manuscripts were not divided into chapters, so this is not a valid question to ask in relation to the point I'm making. There is no chapter break in the original manuscripts between what is written in Revelation 11:15-19 and what is written in Revelation 12, for example.

What global things? Everything in those verses can be explained locally historically.

Show me what you're talking about exactly, please. How can wars and rumors of wars between nations be signs of something that would happen locally in Judea or Jerusalem? How can famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places be signs of a coming local event in Jerusalem? How is the preaching of the gospel to all nations a sign of a local event in Jerusalem?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

The Bible records that there was famine “throughout all the world. . . in the days of Claudius Caesar” (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. “The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethern which dwelt in Judaea” (verse 29). Paul’s instructions concerning this “collection [of fruit] for the saints” is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a “Failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon.” Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Home, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilences; that is plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of “pestilence” at Home in the days of Nero which was so severe that “within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons.” Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A.D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 66. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that “frequent earthquakes occured, by which many houses were thrown down” and that “twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake.”

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: “How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once.” He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A. D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown — Laodocia being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A. D., the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

What would be the point of Jesus mentioning all of those things happening in other parts of the world and then pointing out that those things don't mean the end of Jerusalem will have come yet? Those things have nothing to do with Jerusalem.

 

[quietthinker]

When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?​

Jesus was the embodiment of the Temple. Its furnishings and its rituals were symbols including the Lamb slain.
Jesus say's referring to himself, 'destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days' John 2:19 As per usual, he was misunderstood.

The Temple in Jerusalem was where the King of the Jews resided. This King even followed the Israelites through the Wilderness in their earlier wanderings from Egypt. This too was a symbol acted out in history.....just as it applies to us today.

When the Jews screamed, 'we have no king but Caesar' they officially disowned him, then they murdered him. (got rid of him)

The thick curtain which separated the two apartments in the temple was torn from top to bottom....also significant. It was not torn from bottom to top but rather from top to bottom. In other words God was revealing that access to the most holy place was now open through the body (his reality) of Jesus.

The Jerusalem Temple was/ is now redundant as the real temple (the way to access God) was resurrected and alive for evermore.

The Jews in their blindness continued their useless sacrifices till the structure was finally destroyed by the Romans in AD 70.

Today the Jews want to reinstate the structure and its services......yet they miss its point and carry on with their futile activities.
Unfortunately many who call themselves adherents of Jesus today, assume there is some significance in the Jews wanting to reinstate those old practices.
Are they also blinded and miss the point?

 

[covenantee]

No, sunteleia is not the moment in time that brings about the end of the age. That word does not refer to a moment in time but instead a period of time that leads up to "the end" (telos).

Untrue.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Check the Greek. That end is a sunteleia end, not a telos end.

 

[covenantee]

What would be the point of Jesus mentioning all of those things happening in other parts of the world and then pointing out that those things don't mean the end of Jerusalem will have come yet? Those things have nothing to do with Jerusalem

The point was so that Jesus' disciples would not be deceived into interpreting them as signs of an imminent end (verse 6).

Jesus realized the possibility of such deception so He cautioned against it.

 

[covenantee]

What would be the point of Jesus mentioning all of those things happening in other parts of the world and then pointing out that those things don't mean the end of Jerusalem will have come yet? Those things have nothing to do with Jerusalem.

Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The signs in verse 6 did not signal an imminent end, but they and the signs in verse 7 signaled the beginning of that end, as confirmed in verse 8.

Then followed Jesus' somber message to His followers.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for His name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Stephen. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

 

[Timtofly]

Have you told Jesus that His warning was 130 years late?

Jesus never called the Roman soldiers the AoD. You did, and you are wrong.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus never called the Roman soldiers the AoD. You did, and you are wrong.

Did He call you the AoD?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Untrue.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Check the Greek. That end is a sunteleia end, not a telos end.

I don't think you're reading what I'm saying carefully. I'm saying that the word "telos" refers to the actual last moment of something while "the end of the world/age" can include the last moments that lead up to and include the actual last moment of something. That is true. So, there is no real reason to act as if one verse that refers to "the end" (telos) can't be related to another that refers to "the end of the world" (sunteleia).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point was so that Jesus' disciples would not be deceived into interpreting them as signs of an imminent end (verse 6).

Jesus realized the possibility of such deception so He cautioned against it.

Why would they be deceived by things happening in other parts of the world? What would those things say about the event that was going to happen in Jerusalem? I don't see how that makes any sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The signs in verse 6 did not signal an imminent end, but they and the signs in verse 7 signaled the beginning of that end, as confirmed in verse 8.

Yes, I know that, and I'm not saying otherwise. That's beside the point I'm making. Why reference things that were going on in other nations in relation to a coming local event at all? What was the purpose of that? You can't say those things were the beginning of the end of Jerusalem. How does that make any sense? It makes far more sense to see those global events as being the beginning of the end of the world/age when Jesus comes because His second coming is a global event.

Then followed Jesus' somber message to His followers.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for His name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Stephen. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

Christians have experienced persecution ever since as well, so this does not really prove anything. How could there have been a mass falling away from the faith with increased deception and wickedness with the love of most growing cold back then? This makes me wonder what your understanding is of Satan's binding? What do you think Satan was bound from doing? Don't you think his binding helps prevent the mass falling away from the faith, increased deception and wickedness with the love of most growing cold?

 

[covenantee]

Why would they be deceived by things happening in other parts of the world?

Then why did Jesus caution them (or more accurately, reassure them to "be not troubled" in verse 6)?

Obviously He knew that they could or would be troubled without His reassurance.

I don't see how that makes any sense.

It makes sense to me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why did Jesus caution them (or more accurately, reassure them to "be not troubled" in verse 6)?

Obviously He knew that they could or would be troubled without His reassurance.

Because no one knew the day or hour of His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), so, for all anyone knew, it could occur in their lifetimes.

Why would the disciples be troubled about wars and rumors of wars and such happening in other nations in relation to the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed? Things happening in other nations would be the beginning signs of a coming global event, not a local event.

Also, you have it in your mind that what He said only applied to the disciples because you see the word "ye" there. But, what He said applied to anyone in the world seeing those things that were happening around the world because He wanted to assure all believers that seeing such things would not mean that Jesus's second coming at the end of the age was at hand. He spoke of global things there in relation to a global event, not in relation to a local event.

Did what Jesus said in the following passage only apply to the disciples because He used the word "ye" here...

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[covenantee]

Christians have experienced persecution ever since as well, so this does not really prove anything.

Then why did Jesus bring it up?

 

[covenantee]

Because no one knew the day or hour of His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), so, for all anyone knew, it could occur in their lifetimes.

Why would the disciples be troubled about wars and rumors of wars and such happening in other nations in relation to the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed? Things happening in other nations would be the beginning signs of a coming global event, not a local event.

Also, you have it in your mind that what He said only applied to the disciples because you see the word "ye" there. But, what He said applied to anyone in the world seeing those things that were happening around the world because He wanted to assure all believers that seeing such things would not mean that Jesus's second coming at the end of the age was at hand. He spoke of global things there in relation to a global event, not in relation to a local event.

Did what Jesus said in the following passage only apply to the disciples because He used the word "ye" here...

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The overarching counterquestion to your questions is:

Why did Jesus bring these things up?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why did Jesus bring it up?

Because He wanted not just the disciples, but all believers in all nations, to be aware that they should expect to be persecuted when preaching the gospel.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

So, that is part of the reason. But, also, what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24:9-13 was a particular time period that would come during which there would be increased persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness. I see that passage as referring to Satan's little season and to the same time period described in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 and Revelation 20:7-9. Those things always happened to some extent, but, notice in verse 12 that He talks about a time when "iniquity shall abound", or, as the NIV puts it, a time of "increased wickedness" when "the love of most will grow cold". Naturally, in a time of increased wickedness and apostasy there would also be increased persecution.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The overarching counterquestion to your questions is:

Why did Jesus bring these things up?

You expect me to answer your question while you don't answer mine. I already told you why in that post. I said...

"Because no one knew the day or hour of His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), so, for all anyone knew, it could occur in their lifetimes."

So, with that being the case, He wanted them, and all believers reading His words, to not be troubled that His coming and the end of the age might be at hand if they see wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening because those are not signs of His coming and the end of the age being at hand. Instead, they are the beginning of sorrows. He would not have said that those global events are not signs of the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple buildings being at hand because it wouldn't make sense to refer to global events as being signs of a coming local event.

Also, I asked...

"Why would the disciples be troubled about wars and rumors of wars and such happening in other nations in relation to the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed? Things happening in other nations would be the beginning signs of a coming global event, not a local event."

What is your answer to this question?

 

[covenantee]

Because He wanted not just the disciples, but all believers in all nations, to be aware that they should expect to be persecuted when preaching the gospel.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Yes, believers understand that persecution has always been an ongoing reality.

But Jesus' descriptions of persecutions were directed specifically to His "ye" and "you" disciples, and fulfilled specifically in the book of Acts, as I've cited.

That is past history and will never be specifically repeated, except for those who believe in dual fulfillments (but not you and I).

 

[covenantee]

"Why would the disciples be troubled about wars and rumors of wars and such happening in other nations in relation to the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed? Things happening in other nations would be the beginning signs of a coming global event, not a local event."

What is your answer to this question?

Jesus does not tell us why He thought that they would or could be troubled.

But He did think that they would or could be troubled.

One possible reason could have been the abrupt increase in the frequency of wars and commotions (Luke 21:9) within the Roman Empire, as documented in the the historical records.

They were increasingly local.

"Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor’s armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields."

They would have troubled me.

You?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, believers understand that persecution has always been an ongoing reality.

But Jesus' descriptions of persecutions were directed specifically to His "ye" and "you" disciples, and fulfilled specifically in the book of Acts, as I've cited.

So, who are "ye" or "you" in this passage...

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

That is past history and will never be specifically repeated, except for those who believe in dual fulfillments (but not you and I).

Yes, the persecution of the disciples is past history, but not the persecution of all believers. What Jesus said did not only apply to the disciples any more than passages like Matthew 24:42-44 only applied to the disciples.