When did the church start?

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farouk

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The Holy Spirit was given to the general church population on the day of Pentecost, thus forming the body of Christ; which I would identify as those who are indwelt by Him/ His Holy Spirit.

On another issue in this thread I find the following scripture quite interesting:

Gal 2:7, But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Are there two gospels?

In this passage, the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Peter, I assume that it was committed to him by the Lord.

So then, Peter's gospel, to the circumcision, was not a gospel of condemnation for those who would receive it.

It (Peter's gospel) does entail more understanding to be able to wrap your mind around how the law and grace fit together; whereas Paul's gospel (to the uncircumcision) focused on grace alone and I think that Paul trusted the Lord to produce the fruit by which the behaviour of the Galatians would not be in violation of any law (Galatians 5:22-23).
It has to be all of grace. Galatians contains strong warnings against the idea of going back to the law. Paul preached mainly to the Gentiles and Peter mainly to Jews, but it was the same gospel.

I belong, by grace alone, with the carcasses of the discarded sacrifices which were burnt without the camp of organized religion and the Old Testament Jewish system.

"For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (Hebrews 13.11-15)

The law was changed.

What we now have is better than the law.

(Hebrews 7.12; Hebrews 7.19)
 

justbyfaith

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The law was changed...and yet not one jot or tittle has passed from it (Matthew 5:17-20).

It no longer condemns us as being written on tables of stone; now it governs us as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3).

The spiritual mind is subject to the law of God (Romans 8:7).

Under the New Covenant, the law is now written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10).

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

chapter 3.
 
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marksman

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It may not have been revealed until Paul. With that I can agree.
The physical church didn't appear.
But all things being spiritual , as Eve came out of the side of first Adam,
so The Spiritual Bride must have come out of the side of the Last Adam.

His side was pierced ( as was Adam's figuratively) ..His Bride/Church came from Him on the cross.

There endeth my two cents. :)

I disagree totally. That was worth more than two cents!!
 
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marksman

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Why is it important to know when the church for this age of grace started?

If we think that the church for this age started with Peter on the day of Pentecost then we must consider that Peter was still a Jew, speaking to Jews, going to the Jewish Temple to worship and that he still wanted to keep the Law of Moses when he told God he did not want to eat anything unclean and that his going to the house of a Gentile would make him unclean.. (see supporting scriptures below)

In other words he considered himself to still be under the Jewish law. No where in his preaching on the day of Pentecost did he indicate that no one was under the Law of Moses. Therefore if the church started with Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost, then the church started under the Law of Moses, not grace, and Paul’s gospel was a heresy.

In addition, the scriptures state the gospel of grace that was given to Paul had been hidden in God and was now revealed to Paul. Therefore, the gospel of grace was not given to mankind until Paul preached it.

Therefore a person has to choose whether he is in a church started under the law of Moses or a church that started under grace the day Paul, preached the gospel of grace. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t mix law and grace without destroying them both and, in my opinion, that is just what most of the churches of today are doing.

According to the scriptures the world will be judged according to Paul’s gospel (not Peter‘s). That is why it is important to know when your church started.

Written by H Richard

Supporting scripture:

Acts 2:46
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
NKJV

Acts 3:1
3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
NKJV

Acts 3:6 8
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them — walking, leaping, and praising God.
NKJV

Acts 5:25
25 So one came and told them, saying, "Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!"
NKJV

Acts 5:41 42
41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
NKJV

Let's see if we can sort out this mangled version of scripture.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter and the disciples, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit birthed the New Covenant. This covenant was based on the events that took place on Calvary where the blood of Jesus replaced the blood of animals to enable people to get right with God. Not only that but his sacrifice was a once for all sacrifice as opposed to animals which were annual.

Peter, on the day of Pentecost, explained what had happened and what was required of the people. His message was to repent and be baptised for the remission of sins (which is a concept they would be familiar with) and they would receive the Holy Ghost (that was the new part).

The new expression of faith was known as "The Way" and was seen as a sect of Judaism. Therefore, they did not stop being Jews. The difference was they were born again Jews. This fact did not suddenly cancel their Jewishness.

This new sect met in homes as it says in Acts 2:46 and in Solomons Porch in the temple Acts 5:17. It does not say what they did when they met there. We only know that the Jewish church met there for some specific reason.

So, the New Covenant church was both born again under the New Covenant and Jewish under the Old Covenant. They did not stop being Jews so they would still keep the feasts but with a different emphasis, especially with the Passover meal. They were not thanking God for deliverance from Egypt and the coming Messiah. They were thanking God the Messiah had come and had delivered them from sin.

I don't think for one moment they saw themselves as being under the tenants of the Old Covenant, but they still lived out the traditions of it without being in bondage to the law.

They still kept the 10 commandments as we should, but as we see later on the ordinances became uneccessary.
 
D

Dave L

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A church exists when a group meets regardless of intent. The Congregation of the Lord was the Old Covenant State Church made up of believers and unbelievers alike. Under the New Covenant, God removed the State and the unbelievers leaving believers only. He grafted believing gentiles into the vacuum created by the excommunicated unbelievers.
 

prism

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Acts 20:28 KJV
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

It should be obvious.
 

H. Richard

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You continue to misunderstand and misinterpret the Word, as though no one has responded to your nonsense in other posts. So let's see what is "the Church" and when it originated, and how it originated.

When are you going to stop your attacks against other posters as if you are the greatest.

Sorry, but you seem to be saying no one sees any value in what I write but the """LIKES""" I get show I am not alone.

Notice that I deleted all but your put down. That is because When I saw it I did not see any reason to continue reading it. People that do theses things have no fruits of the Spirit.
 
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Dave L

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Acts 20:28 KJV
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

It should be obvious.
“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
 

prism

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“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
Ok, biblical ping-pong lol...

Matthew 16:18 KJV
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(notice the future tense, 'I WILL build...)
 

H. Richard

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“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)

Dave, Peter was speaking to the Jews since they, the Jews, were the people that received the oracles of God.
 

Helen

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When are you going to stop your attacks against other posters as if you are the greatest.

Sorry, but you seem to be saying no one sees any value in what I write but the """LIKES""" I get show I am not alone.

Notice that I deleted all but your put down. That is because When I saw it I did not see any reason to continue reading it. People that do theses things have no fruits of the Spirit.

I have to agree. Some people just do not have a clue about answering posts without sarcasm and 'put downs'.

If so many can and do answer politely, then with those who don't it must be 'of choice' ........those people think only they have all things bible-correct...and the rest of us are all idiots. But they can't even convey that in a nice way. :D
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Gee, I made a mistake. Sorry about that. But the fact that both Peter AND STEPHEN were Jews does make a difference.
Church = the Church into which believing gentiles were grafted. And unbelievers removed.
 

Marymog

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Why is it important to know when the church for this age of grace started?

If we think that the church for this age started with Peter on the day of Pentecost then we must consider that Peter was still a Jew, speaking to Jews, going to the Jewish Temple to worship and that he still wanted to keep the Law of Moses when he told God he did not want to eat anything unclean and that his going to the house of a Gentile would make him unclean.. (see supporting scriptures below)

In other words he considered himself to still be under the Jewish law. No where in his preaching on the day of Pentecost did he indicate that no one was under the Law of Moses. Therefore if the church started with Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost, then the church started under the Law of Moses, not grace, and Paul’s gospel was a heresy.

In addition, the scriptures state the gospel of grace that was given to Paul had been hidden in God and was now revealed to Paul. Therefore, the gospel of grace was not given to mankind until Paul preached it.

Therefore a person has to choose whether he is in a church started under the law of Moses or a church that started under grace the day Paul, preached the gospel of grace. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t mix law and grace without destroying them both and, in my opinion, that is just what most of the churches of today are doing.

According to the scriptures the world will be judged according to Paul’s gospel (not Peter‘s). That is why it is important to know when your church started.

Written by H Richard

Supporting scripture:

Acts 2:46
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
NKJV

Acts 3:1
3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
NKJV

Acts 3:6 8
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them — walking, leaping, and praising God.
NKJV

Acts 5:25
25 So one came and told them, saying, "Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!"
NKJV

Acts 5:41 42
41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
NKJV
Jesus said he will build his church upon a rock. He said that rock is Peter. It was after the death of Jesus that Peter became the leader of The Church that Jesus built.

Mary
 

H. Richard

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Jesus said he will build his church upon a rock. He said that rock is Peter. It was after the death of Jesus that Peter became the leader of The Church that Jesus built.

Mary

I disagree. Paul was sent to the whole world with a new gospel of God's grace founded on the work of His Son on the cross.

Today, under grace, the children of God are "IN CHRIST" (the church of His body). There is no physical church involved..

But I am sure you will disagree.

Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them since they have been atoned (paid) for by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.
 
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CoreIssue

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Jesus Christ gave the new covenant of blood at the Last Supper. Mosaic law ended at the crucifixion.

The Holy Spirit came in a new way when Christ ascended.

So unless you believe there is a gap between the Mosaic Covenant and the new covenant of blood, the church began at The cross.

Israel as covenant nation began when Isaac was renamed Israel. But it was not instantly fully revealed. That came over time.

So why should you assume the church was instantly revealed at Pentecost?
 

Enoch111

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When are you going to stop your attacks against other posters as if you are the greatest.
I did not attack you personally but I did call your OP "nonsense". And it is still nonsense because you do misunderstand and misinterpret Scripture.

Here is what you said: "In other words he considered himself to still be under the Jewish law. No where in his preaching on the day of Pentecost did he indicate that no one was under the Law of Moses. Therefore if the church started with Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost, then the church started under the Law of Moses, not grace, and Paul’s gospel was a heresy."

And anyone who has a modicum of knowledge about what happened between the crucifixion of Christ and the day of Pentecost will see that this is TOTAL BALONEY. Absolute rubbish.

Therefore I gave you the truth from Scripture, but you -- like many Others -- can't handle the truth.
 
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Enoch111

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Jesus said he will build his church upon a rock. He said that rock is Peter.
Mary,

The Rock has always been Christ. So when Peter told Jesus that he believed that Jesus was the Son of God, Peter was confirming that Christ is the Rock upon which the Church would be built.

1 CORINTHIANS 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.