"When did the RCC begin?"

[mjrhealth]

You forgot to mention Revelation 12...salvation is for those that have the testimony of Jesus, and follow the commandments of God...

Actually i forgot to mention that


Salvation is through Grace by faith lest any should boast.

and follow the commandments of God...

But thankyou HTE you finally helped me see,, you have just turned a free gift into a reward by your works, thats why Salavation is by grace through faith,

Thankyou

 

[heretoeternity]

You confusion amazes me that your cannot see the truth.....all those that cannot see the truth..enjoy your life of sin..while it lasts..

 

[mjrhealth]

You confusion amazes me that your cannot see the truth.....all those that cannot see the truth..enjoy your life of sin..while it lasts..

Yes it amzes me that the ones who insist on keeping the law so they wont sin, spend all there days talking about one issue they have "sin". The law does not take away sin, it condemns those who keep it. Always has always will.

As Paul said

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Thats what it does and you are upset that we accept the freee gift of grace without adding all teh "but" bits to make yourself aproved.

You confusion amazes me that your cannot see the truth.....all those that cannot see the truth..enjoy your life of sin..while it lasts..

As Jesus said

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

But you are not free you are a servant to the law.

 

[kerwin]

mjrheath,

Salvation is through Grace by faith lest any should boast.

It can be summed up that way but like any summation it is missing a number of details. In this case critical detail which is why James teaches us faith without works is dead. After all there is a reason for there being a number of books in the new testament.

 

[mjrhealth]

James teaches us faith without works is dead.

Joh_10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

They are not our works. Why do you think teh pharisses got mad at Jesus when he healed people on the sabbath?? Jesus was not doing His work He was doing Our fathers works.

 

[epostle1]

But you are not free you are a servant to the law.

Both Catholics and Protestants do good works, and nobody I ever met does them to earn salvation. Christians of all stripes do good works because they love God and neighbor, not for salvation. The good works Christians do is done in grace with faith in Christ.

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to
Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and
Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.”

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois."

Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

 

[FHII]

The issue is one of equivocation which I will explain in a moment.

First let me say that I disagree with your dismissal of kepha's examples. Jesus said call no man father. He did not make exceptions for biological fathers. Nor did he say - do not call your elders father.

Kepha’s examples were of addressing men as ‘father’, or giving them the title ‘father’. If we take Jesus’ words as meaning do not address or title anyone, father, then there is clearly a contradiction in scripture.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives 8 meanings.
But even with that there is plenty of room for equivocation.

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator (and therefore understands Greek), the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

It’s Strong G2564
[SIZE=14pt]kaleo[/SIZE]
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.”
Or in Lk 14:7-24 where it is translated as ‘invited’ (6 times).

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:-
[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.

This is a different meaning of “call” to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father meaning addressing their priests as father.
Collins Concise Dictionary this would be
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.

Or from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.

Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics “calling”, (i.e. addressing) their priests father.

From what I am to understand is that you believe Jesus was saying not to "bid" or "call forth" another on earth as you would God the Father. Is that correct? If so, Let's look at the text in question:

Mat 23:

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Mungo, everything about this has to do with titles, honor and accolades. In other words, Jesus was saying NOT to address anyone on earth as "your father". Look at the context: it says be not called Rabbi, call no man your father, and be not called masters. It's clearly talking about how to (or in this case, how not to...) address people. (By the way... "teachers" is not listed. Those who say it is listed are playing word substitution games: very popular on this board amongst people who can't make their point with what the Bible clearly says).

Furthermore, its talking about religious positions. Is that clear to you? Jesus is talking about the scribes and pharisees. So it's not talking about using the term in genealogical ways.

There is also the thought that Jesus was only applying this to "hypocritical pharisees". Not true. Jesus gave the reason for not calling any man on earth "our father". That reason had nothing to do with the pharisees and scribes being hypocrites. The reason was because there is only one who is your father. That is true during the time when the Pharisees were being hypocrites. That is still true today.

SO what are the reasons why Catholics feel justified calling their priest "father"? 1. Because everyone did it in the Bible (that's a lie), 2. Jesus didn't really mean what he said (that's a lie) and 3. Jesus said not to call them father but addressing them as father is ok (again, not true!).

 

[Mungo]

Hi FHII,

I'm on holiday. I was hoping to post a bit and brought my tablet with me. However repLying to this is far to complex to cope with it. So it will have to wait until I return (2 weeks). But I promise I will respond on my return.

God bless
Mungo

 

[tom55]

.


.

.

Love the meme!!

 

[tom55]

You may not really want to.
http://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/revelation/revelation-17/

I read the link you provided. I don't see anywhere in the article that the author, David Treybig, showed that the Bible says that The Catholic Church is the mother of harlots which was what you were asked to prove. You failed to do that.

What Treybig wrote is HIS interpretation of Revelation. So I ask you StanJ: Is Treybig infallible?????? Is it possible that the catholic.com authors of a rebuttal argument are right in their interpretation?

Is this the same Treybig, that contrary to the NT, celebrates the Sabbath on Saturday?

Who teaches that Christians should not serve in the military?

Who teaches that meat identified as “unclean” in the Bible is not to be consumed by humans and uses Jewish or OT law to back up his false claim? I thought we were under the new law, not Jewish law??

 

[tom55]

So does the RCC. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The RCC apparently also ordains a lot of pedophiles and sadists.

Are you suggesting that the RCC knowingly ordains homosexual ministers, pedophiles and sadists??

 

[tom55]

I have never read one word of Dave Hunts books; reading yours and your church's responses to his charges against your church is the closest I have been to reading him; not sure if I should thank you for that. I do agree with Dave Hunt in some of his views, but not all. And the ones I agree with I disagree with his reasons.....

For someone who has "never read one word of Dave Hunts books" what you write about the RCC being the Whore of Babylon are almost direct quotes from his books AND I noticed you have quoted him multiple times on your website. I'm just sayin'............... <_<

What makes Dave Hunt infallible??? Doesn't scripture warn us about no prophecy of the Scripture being a matter of one’s own interpretation? Scripture says that no prophecy at any time was produced by the will of man, but holy MEN moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Is it possible that David Hunt and you are wrong in your interpretation??

http://jimmyakin.com/hunt-ing-the-whore-of-babylon

 

[FHII]

Hi FHII,

I'm on holiday. I was hoping to post a bit and brought my tablet with me. However repLying to this is far to complex to cope with it. So it will have to wait until I return (2 weeks). But I promise I will respond on my return.

God bless
Mungo

No problem Mungo.... Enjoy your holiday.

 

[kerwin]

mjrheath;

Joh_10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

They are not our works. Why do you think teh pharisses got mad at Jesus when he healed people on the sabbath?? Jesus was not doing His work He was doing Our fathers works.

Yes, Jesus is the author of Christian practices for a reason.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, Jesus is the author of Christian practices for a reason.

Theonly thing Christ ever asked for was faith, everthing else is man made tradition. pleases the flesh.

 

[kerwin]

mrjhealth,

He not only asked but he stated that more was necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 5:20New International Version (NIV)

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


About the righteousness of the Pharisees he said.


Matthew 23:27-28New International Version (NIV)

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Faith is Jesus Christ is the way to receive and walk by the Spirit but if anyone has the Spirit and does not walk by it then they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: There are those that believe they can have the righteousness of the Pharisees or even less and still believe and inherit the kingdom of heaven. Such a teaching disagrees with Scripture and is what James addressed in his letter.

 

[mjrhealth]

He not only asked but he stated that more was necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.

But ours never will that is why he gives us His, and by it we can stand before God sinless and blameless.

As the book of revelation states

Rev_5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev_5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
See no man, that means we cannot enter in by "our" righteousness for if we did than there would of being many and Christ would have died in vain.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[H. Richard]

mrjhealth,

He not only asked but he stated that more was necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 5:20New International Version (NIV)

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


About the righteousness of the Pharisees he said.


Matthew 23:27-28New International Version (NIV)

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Faith is Jesus Christ is the way to receive and walk by the Spirit but if anyone has the Spirit and does not walk by it then they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: There are those that believe they can have the righteousness of the Pharisees or even less and still believe and inherit the kingdom of heaven. Such a teaching disagrees with Scripture and is what James addressed in his letter.

mjrhealth is right on. The children of God have Jesus' righteousness imputed to them because they

believe and trust in what Jesus did for them on the cross. They have Jesus' righteousness not their own.
Obviously you think your righteousness is the same as Jesus' righteousness.

I wonder what God thinks of your wanting to say you are just as righteous as His Son.

 

[kerwin]

mhrhealth,

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That is written to those under the Law and so does not apply to Christians.

Christians have been freed from slavery to sin and have become servants of righteousness.

Rev_5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev_5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

This applies to both Christians and non-Christians as all have sinned in the past. Even those that are fully mature in Christ are like him but they still have their past sins and therefore are not worthy.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

mjrhealth is right on. The children of God have Jesus' righteousness imputed to them because they believe and trust in what Jesus did for them on the cross. They have Jesus' righteousness not their own.
Obviously you think your righteousness is the same as Jesus' righteousness.

I wonder what God thinks of your wanting to say you are just as righteous as His Son.

There is nothing about Jesus' righteousness being imputed to anyone in Scripture.

Righteousness is imputed to those that believe God but since Abraham was not even in the old covenant, much less the new, that is true to even those that have not heard the gospel.

Jesus received the Spirit of God, which is the Holy Spirit, and he walked by it. He now gives that same Spirit to other so they to can walk by it and therefore bear its fruit.