When to Leave Church

[Christ4Me]

Ok....let's try this again! Those passages you provided have NOTHING to do with how YOU KNOW when a denomination is wrong about Scripture and (your new addition) how they "have gone astray".

This is the statement YOU made: When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.

That statement by YOU strongly implies that YOU know when a church is wrong about Scripture and is being inequitable and that YOU would leave that church because YOU KNOW they are wrong.

All I am asking you to do is back your statement up with facts or give an articulate answer to your statement. Can you?

Curious Mary

Catholic Catechism testifies that you are not saved yet because you have to persevere in charity in spite of being a member of the catholic church and doing the sacraments as the mans to obtain salvation through her.

Billy Graham preached it is not going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not keeping the ten commandments is what going to save you. It is all those who call upon the name of the Lord.

Then Billy Graham flipped the gospel message at the altar call.

"if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."

Whatever happened to all those that call upon the name of the Lord are saved?

So to get that assurance of salvation is by keeping that commitment to follow Christ and so what does that mean?

Going to church every Sunday is what is going to save you.

Keeping the ten commandments and more because Jesus commandments are higher than the 10 commandments is what's going to save you.

Does that sound right to you? Nulling and voiding what he had preached before about how we are saved.

In an interview with Tony Snow, Billy Graham doubted he would be received by the Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven because he was not always a good Christian. Tony Snow Interviews Billy Graham

"SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much." end of quote

Imagine the poor Catholic.

When we divide our hope in Jesus Christ with works to obtain salvation, then believers will never know if they did enough to earn salvation.

When Jesus Christ appear, is all your hope is in Him that you are saved or will you draw back, wondering if you had done enough to be accepted by Him as saved?

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Christ4Me]

Yes, that is a "Catholic site". As they explained on that radio show, of which I'm pretty sure you didn't listen to, a "bad Pope (person)" does NOT invalidate the doctrine of The Church.

Not the point of the reference to you but that there were bad Popes.

How Catholics rationalize them in the face of what apostolic succession means and infallible Pope is just side stepping the issue about the One True Church that can do no wrong when obviously they did wrong.

 

[Marymog]

Not the point of the reference to you but that there were bad Popes.

How Catholics rationalize them in the face of what apostolic succession means and infallible Pope is just side stepping the issue about the One True Church that can do no wrong when obviously they did wrong.

Where does The Church teach that the Pope is infallible? It doesn't sooooo you can put that lie out of your head. Protestants teach people like you that he is infallible, but The Church doesn't teach that.

Who is the leader of your denomination?

 

[Christ4Me]

You are a careless reader of Scripture.

251 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The bride does not go out to meet the bridegroom. Teh brides maids do! The church is the bride and the virgins are the non church saints who have been saved apart from the church (Pentecost to the rapture)

Now you think about that for a moment. The warning here is addressed to O.T. saints? Luke 13:24-30 proves otherwise.

The believers after the rapture? Then how can they be non church saints saved apart from the church for missing the rapture?

Couple this with REv. 19 and you see a crowd assembled to witness Jesus marry the church!

In Heaven.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:... 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The church is the bride and that includes the saints as that bride. There is no non church saints who have been saved apart from the church.

Unless you wish to cite the specific verses for those so called non church saints, I am not seeing it, brother.

 

[Christ4Me]

Where does The Church teach that the Pope is infallible? It doesn't sooooo you can put that lie out of your head. Protestants teach people like you that he is infallible, but The Church doesn't teach that.

They teach it, but not the way Protestant says it means.

Papal Infallibility

"Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25)." end of quote

So your Church does teach it. Whether or not you accept this rationalization for bad Popes, is another matter.

Who is the leader of your denomination?

The Word of God aka Jesus Christ, Whom is the Head of every believer and every church. That means it is not the Pope.

1 Corinthians 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[Illuminator]

They teach it, but not the way Protestant says it means.

Papal Infallibility

"Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25)." end of quote

So your Church does teach it. Whether or not you accept this rationalization for bad Popes, is another matter.

Then show us anything a bad pope formally taught. You can't because no bad pope ever taught anything. Put up or shut up.

 

[Marymog]

They teach it, but not the way Protestant says it means.

Papal Infallibility

"Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25)." end of quote

So your Church does teach it. Whether or not you accept this rationalization for bad Popes, is another matter....

Nope, not true. Read it again kiddo.

Let me highlight the most important part you are missing: ....infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16).

So you can put the lie that has been taught to you to rest. The Church does not teach that the Pope, when speaking on his own, is infallible. Case closed...

 

[Marymog]

The Word of God aka Jesus Christ, Whom is the Head of every believer and every church. That means it is not the Pope.

1 Corinthians 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Hmmmm....So Jesus Christ is the head of your denomination. That's pretty generic. All denominations claim that. Who in your denomination is guided by the Holy Spirit to properly interpret His words into the Truth? OR you can make it easier on me so I can do my own research to find the answer: What denomination do you belong to?

 

[Marymog]

They teach it, but not the way Protestant says it means.

Papal Infallibility

"Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25)." end of quote

So your Church does teach it. Whether or not you accept this rationalization for bad Popes, is another matter.



The Word of God aka Jesus Christ, Whom is the Head of every believer and every church. That means it is not the Pope.

1 Corinthians 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Your confusion comes in when you ASSUME that when the Pope speaks it is doctrine and all Catholics MUST believe what he says. If you can get that lie out of your head you will do well.

 

[Illuminator]

Satan changed his tactics. He worked overtime corrupting a few bad popes; this is not denied by Catholics. (for the third time).
Now Satan corrupts our whole culture. You are just part of that corruption because you persecute Catholics with your "bad pope" obsession.
You wallow in religious filth, and have to go back 1000 years to did up dirt. What do "bad popes" centuries ago have anything to do with Catholics today? Nothing.

Tell me, Christ4me, which of these would you burn down first? Your Ku Klux Klan theology makes me sick.

 

[Christ4Me]

Then show us anything a bad pope formally taught. You can't because no bad pope ever taught anything. Put up or shut up.

@Marymog

The whole Catholic Catechism is a bunch of lies designed to make merchandise of believers in Rome and elsewhere. Like a lobster in a slowly boiling pot, the RCC emphasizes on things that is not found in the N.T. like doing communion for more than in remembrance of Him and if any does only do it in remembrance of Him, they are to be anathema, and yet that is all Jesus told us to do communion for. as important as the RCC makes it more than to be done in remembrance of Him, the glaring question is why didn't Jesus lead with that? But He did not.

As for the Popes of Rome, they should have been removed from position and excommunicated to lead them to repentance or else when the Bridegroom comes, they will not be partakers of the first fruit of the resurrection, but be castaways.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now for a Pope to mislead and have sexual relations with those in his charge, what does that say by his immoral actions, other than he is teaching others to commit sin? And by his example, the whole congregation? That is why he should have been excommunicated, brother, as any other Christian leader should have been.

But no. It is the practice of the RCC to just transfer the child molesting traitor to other parishes & the Vatican knew about this practice all along.

Is that caring for the body of Christ? They do not care to excommunicate the traitor to lead him into repentance or send that brother to Jail at least.

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So how did the Vatican knew about the practice of transferring child molesting traitors from one parish to another unless this practice was taught?

And bad Popes teach others by their bad examples just as you can point out bad Protestant leaders that teach others by their bad examples.

As it is, that Catholic Catechism steals the joy of your salvation by teaching you & others they are not saved yet and you have to be a part of the Catholic Church to obtain all the means provided through her for their salvation. They have made merchandise of you and you know it not.

 

[Illuminator]

If one considers the hostility the Catholic Church and traditional Judeo-Christian values faced from the Biden Administration, corporations, education, and the perpetually aggrieved activist class, 2021 was a long year. However, the Catholic League managed to achieve many victories.

Out of all the enemies hostile to the Catholic Church, the government poses the most danger of them all. Particularly, with Joe Biden holding the presidency, the forces of the federal government ushered in many anti-Catholic policies. That this occurred under a self-described “devout Catholic” made this all the more infuriating.

Biden wasted no time attacking teachings at the heart of the Church. On January 20th, his first day in office, Biden issued an executive order allowing males who claim to be female the right to compete with females in high school and college sports. He also approved of them showering together.

read more here

 

[Christ4Me]

Hmmmm....So Jesus Christ is the head of your denomination. That's pretty generic. All denominations claim that. Who in your denomination is guided by the Holy Spirit to properly interpret His words into the Truth? OR you can make it easier on me so I can do my own research to find the answer: What denomination do you belong to?

Doesn't the Pope as Vicar substitute for Christ as the Head, thus making the Pope the "antichrist" as scripture apply that to men "instead of Christ"?

 

[Illuminator]

Christ4me will be ignored.

 

[Christ4Me]

If one considers the hostility the Catholic Church and traditional Judeo-Christian values faced

Out of all the enemies hostile to the Catholic Church,

What about this hostility here below?

Then show us anything a bad pope formally taught. You can't because no bad pope ever taught anything. Put up or shut up.

As if the Inquisition never happened. Talk about hostilities.

 

[Illuminator]

↑
Hmmmm....So Jesus Christ is the head of your denomination. That's pretty generic. All denominations claim that. Who in your denomination is guided by the Holy Spirit to properly interpret His words into the Truth? OR you can make it easier on me so I can do my own research to find the answer: What denomination do you belong to?

Doesn't the Pope as Vicar substitute for Christ as the Head, thus making the Pope the "antichrist" as scripture apply that to men "instead of Christ"?

Vicar means servant, not substitute. Another reason to ignore Christ4me, he doesn't answer questions and flips the subject from "bad popes" to the Inquisition. He has no denomination, he is his own denomination. IMO, anti-Catholicism of his level reflects brain damage.

 

[Christ4Me]

Christ4me will be ignored.

Yeah.. I have a problem when knowing not to share with believers that are obviously not open to discussion.

Did I not agree with you about bad Protestant leaders?

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding. 7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. 8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

All I seem to be getting is a blot for sharing with brothers & sisters that err when obviously, they do not want to hear honest contentions of any sort.

May the Lord deliver me from this inclination to respond to alerts without leaning on Him if they really want to hear the truth or not.

 

[Marymog]

Doesn't the Pope as Vicar substitute for Christ as the Head, thus making the Pope the "antichrist" as scripture apply that to men "instead of Christ"?

Nice try kiddo. I asked you a question. Are we having a conversation or is this an interrogation?

Lets try again: Who in your denomination is guided by the Holy Spirit to properly interpret His words into the Truth? OR you can make it easier on me so I can do my own research to find the answer: What denomination do you belong to?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Ye shall know them by their denomination"........so sayeth the Devil.

"Hey mister, are you a CHRISTIAN">?????..>"Yes, im a catholic, baptist, methodist, Lutheran, Calvanish, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, ........_________"

"no sir.......i asked you if you are a CHRISTIAN".

"You failed the test."

You are majoring on the minors. It may mean something, or it may simply be the way people are used to answering. If they trusted Jesus death and resurrection, they are Christian whether or not they pass our particular pop quizzes.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

251 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



Now you think about that for a moment. The warning here is addressed to O.T. saints? Luke 13:24-30 proves otherwise.

The believers after the rapture? Then how can they be non church saints saved apart from the church for missing the rapture?



In Heaven.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:... 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The church is the bride and that includes the saints as that bride. There is no non church saints who have been saved apart from the church.

Unless you wish to cite the specific verses for those so called non church saints, I am not seeing it, brother.

The church was born at Pentecost and ends at the rapture. All saved before that are saved but nor part of the church which is the bride of Christ. John the Baptist said he was a friend of the groom and not part of the bride.

OT saints died and went to Abrhamas bosom before the church was born.

Post rapture saints either die and told to wait or on earth when teh bride weds Jesus in heaven.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


A) Notice many people shout? They are not part of the bride--

B) with saved people on earth still- the bride could not be ready